The debate on sin.

[Armistead]

With all the threads on possible sinful behavior, I thought instead of talking about "acts" that people call sinful and discuss how and when something becomes sinful.

It is us humans that make it more complicated than God intended. When humans take the seat of Divine authority by presuming to make laws where God has not made them they take the supremely arrogant position that God has not adequately done His job.

Human lawmakers thereby suggest that we humans know better how to regulate behavior or teaching that we find offensive, and so we must help God. Because such folly and pride is bound up in the hearts of man, God has been careful to inform us of two fundamental issues:

[1 His written law is the only acceptable legal code for human behavior. Human input is neither needed nor desirable. Indeed every human attempt to “clarify” or “supplement“ God’s laws is a contemptibly arrogant accusation against God’s adequacy as Law-giver.

[2 If His law has not codified a thing as sin, then it is not sin unless it violates Christ’s “Law of Love.”

There are two considerations here:

• Whatever humans may or may not think about it, nothing is sinful unless God Himself declares it to be so. This eliminates the use of faulty human reasoning, inadequate knowledge, prejudice, personal injury, upbringing,former teaching, cultural leanings and a host of other considerations, as acceptable means of determining whether something is forbidden or permitted,moral or immoral.

God has not left us to try to decide on our own if a thing is sin. Spiritual destiny depends on our knowing for sure what is sin. God has therefore not left us to our own best efforts at making the right deductions or inferences from imprecise revelation. In His mercy God has given us clear guidelines for what we cannot do. Outside that realm of Divinely excluded behavior we are free to be and to do as we choose. Two biblical principles cover the morality/immoralityof all possible human behaviors. The first principle is simple:

• God forbids a few specific actions as examples of what breaches the law of love. These practices remain condemned for all time. Freedom is granted to humans to pursue and enjoy what life has to offer as long as God does not forbid a practice. Rather than attempt to tell us everything that is permissible, God chose only to tell us what is forbidden. This makes it so much easier to ferret our way through the many possibilities offered by life on a fallen earth. Learning God’s law makes it possible for us to enjoy life without falling prey either to what truly condemns us, or to the merely human rules that serve only to enslave us. The second principle is likewise simple to understand and apply.

• Through the Law of Love God forbids all actions that harm other people or dishonors Himself. The gist of the matter is this: We must examine all
behaviors that God has not forbidden, to decide if that action harms another person or dishonors God. If our honest conclusion is that such action is not thus harmful, then it is permissible. We may enjoy that action if we choose without self condemnation(Rom. 14:22). In the category of things not specifically forbidden by Scripture each individual is responsible for reaching his/her own personal conclusions(Rom. 14:5). And we are commanded to allow all people to draw their own conclusions without judging and condemning or even “regarding with contempt” those whose conclusions are different from our own (Rom. 14:3-12).

So, stated concisely, the general rule for establishing Biblical morality is:

We must not do what God specifically condemns. However, what God condemns connects directly to the law of love, he condemns that which harms or rejects his sole being as God. It is clear God has given us one law or principle to live by and define sin.

We must not do what harms other people or dishonors God.

Everything else is a matter of personal choice. However, man spends most of his time condemning others based on their personal choices.

 

[HuntingMan]

Any act that defies Gods prohibitions is 'harmful'....either in this life or the next..

>>New Testament "fornication" defined by Mosaic Law<<

.

 

[Armistead]

Any act that defies Gods prohibitions is 'harmful'....either in this life or the next..

>>New Testament "fornication" defined by Mosaic Law<<

.

Not sure what you mean. Throughout the bible, God gave different prohibitions at different times for different people. Clearly, you would agree that the law itself is over...done.

When we try to live by the Law, and trying to justify ourselves by the Law, we are trying to live right by our actions...our human actions. We are making a vein attempt for God's acceptance based on what we do outwardly, hoping the the proper action(s) will be suffecient enough for God to accept us, or in some cases to keep us saved.

It is our heart condition that God is most interested in. if our heart condition is correct, then it works outward into our external actions. Paul makes this point in Romans..."Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. For this, “YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET,” and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.” Love does no wrong to a neighbor; love therefore is the fulfillment of the law."

Do you agree or not that love is the total fulfillment of the law and nothing else applies. If not, then is the bible incorrect when it clearly states many times...doing no harm fulfills all the law? If "doing no harm" doesn't fulfill the law...then what does?

 

[HuntingMan]

Not sure what you mean. Throughout the bible, God gave different prohibitions at different times for different people. Clearly, you would agree that the law itself is over...done.

I agree that the covenant that the law was given thru has been made obsolete with the ratification of this new covenant by Christs death on the cross.

When we try to live by the Law, and trying to justify ourselves by the Law, we are trying to live right by our actions...our human actions. We are making a vein attempt for God's acceptance based on what we do outwardly, hoping the the proper action(s) will be suffecient enough for God to accept us, or in some cases to keep us saved.

And when we OBEY what we are INSTRUCTED to obey we do what is REQUIRED of us as per Gods word.

Not sure how many times we need to cover this...I guess yet another study for the website will be necessary so I dont have to continually repeat myself.
In ACTS 15 when discussing whether the GENTILES should follow the law of Moses it was determined that only FOUR things were to be abstained from as per the law. (of course if you HAD READ the link I gave it may have made this somewhat clear)

But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. .....
(Act 15:5 KJV)
.......Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: But that we write unto them, that they abstain from
-pollutions of idols,
-and from fornication,
-and from things strangled,
-and from blood.
(Act 15:19-20 KJV)

So like it or not there ARE things we GENTILES are instructed to ABSTAIN from (you know...KEEP AWAY from it ).

Whether you like it, whether you can admit it...and whether we do this 4000 more time, A....we ARE to ABSTAIN from those four things....REGARDLESS of your twist with Romans 14 which is about things that we DO have a choice about and simply disagree upon....eating blood has ALWAYS been forbidden...it PREdates the law and is clearly repeated in the law. Idols and fornication are both covered by the law...are you actually trying to claim that IDOLATRY isnt something we HAVE to abstain from ?
Im sure you arent....so the list is things WE as gentiles DO have to abstain from.

And again, the evidence shows that NT 'fornication' is defined in part by the sexual prohibitions in the Mosaic code.

(whew...Im giong to save this one and use it to start doing another study since Ive repeated this same thing about 2 dozen times now...and to the SAME few posters here)

 

[Armistead]

I agree that the covenant that the law was given thru has been made obsolete with the ratification of this new covenant by Christs death on the cross.

And when we OBEY what we are INSTRUCTED to obey we do what is REQUIRED of us as per Gods word.

Not sure how many times we need to cover this...I guess yet another study for the website will be necessary so I dont have to continually repeat myself.
In ACTS 15 when discussing whether the GENTILES should follow the law of Moses it was determined that only FOUR things were to be abstained from as per the law. (of course if you HAD READ the link I gave it may have made this somewhat clear)

So like it or not there ARE things we GENTILES are instructed to ABSTAIN from (you know...KEEP AWAY from it ).

Whether you like it, whether you can admit it...and whether we do this 4000 more time, A....we ARE to ABSTAIN from those four things....REGARDLESS of your twist with Romans 14 which is about things that we DO have a choice about and simply disagree upon....eating blood has ALWAYS been forbidden...it PREdates the law and is clearly repeated in the law. Idols and fornication are both covered by the law...are you actually trying to claim that IDOLATRY isnt something we HAVE to abstain from ?
Im sure you arent....so the list is things WE as gentiles DO have to abstain from.

And again, the evidence shows that NT 'fornication' is defined in part by the sexual prohibitions in the Mosaic code.

(whew...Im giong to save this one and use it to start doing another study since Ive repeated this same thing about 2 dozen times now...and to the SAME few posters here)

So when the bible says love fulfills all the law, it was a lie? Should it be rewritten that love and four other laws fulfill all the law?

 

[HuntingMan]

So when the bible says love fulfills all the law, it was a lie? Should it be rewritten that love and four other laws fulfill all the law?

absolutely hopeless.
Youre ABUSING what that was intended for, A...and sometimes I really think you know it.
IF we 'love' as GOD tells us to love we WONT do things that are against HIM or our fellow man.

Im sorry that its coming down to you simply disagreeing with me when I say there ARE rules Christians have to follow...but that is precisely what this is about.

Heres a link.
>>Gentiles and the Mosaic Law - Acts 15<<

Ill tune it up over the next few days as I have time.
Im really tired of seeing folks twisting the intent of that verse you keep harping on....

 

[Armistead]

HM, you are missing the entire point of Acts. One must understand another matter that troubled the early church-Gentiles were being confronted with keeping the Jewish law. Works of the law, the keeping of Sabbaths, dietary restrictions, the feasts, the cleansing rituals, circumcision, etc., were still permissible to the Jewish Christians who still wished to keep them. They had the freedom to do so. But trouble arose when these rituals were being forced on Gentile converts to Christianity.

"There rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them [Gentile Christians], and to command them to keep the Law of Moses" (Acts 15:5). The occasion for these words was the conference at the Church in Jerusalem. Some were saying Gentile Christians had to keep certain features of the Jewish law, and others were saying, not so."

Meanwhile, the controversy caused whiplash to those who were being yanked from one direction to another. The Jerusalem Conference was called by the Apostles to settle this controversy in clear, understandable terms for everyone. The conference ended with this message to all the churches: "That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well" (Acts 15:29).

Eating meat sold in the market place which had been offered to idols would not harm the individual in itself. However, if it offended another, it would be wrong to do. Paul clarifies the matter saying: "As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one. … Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh" (1 Cor. 8:4, 13).

"But that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from things strangled, and from blood: James’ decision that Gentile believers should not be under the Mosaic Law is also tempered by practical instruction. The idea was that it was important that Gentile believers not act in a way that would antagonize the Jewish community in every city and destroy the church’s witness among Jews."

" To abstain from things polluted by idols . . . from things strangled, and from blood: These three commands have to do with the eating habits of Gentile Christians. Though they were not bound under the Law of Moses, they were bound under the Law of Love. The Law of Love tells them, “don’t unnecessarily antagonize your Jewish neighbors, both in and out of the church. That is the message..it connects with the law of love.

" To abstain from . . . sexual immorality: When James declares that they forbid the Gentile Christians to abstain from . . . sexual immorality, James is directing these Gentiles living in such close fellowship with the Jewish believers to observe the specific marriage regulations required by Leviticus 18, which prohibited marriages between most family relations. This was something that Jews would abhor, but most Gentiles would think little of."

Gentile Christians had the “right” to eat meat sacrificed to idols, to continue their marriage practices, and to eat food without a kosher bleeding, because these were aspects of the Mosaic law they definitely were not under. However, they are encouraged to law down their “rights” in these matters as a display of love to their Jewish brethren.
In this they were keeping the law of love.

Gentiles were not being told to follow the laws and customs of Jewish Christians who still chose to follow these commands. The goal was to encourage community between Jews and Gentiles, so they could worship together. Simply, they were told, out of love and peace, follow these things.

All four of the requested abstentions related to ceremonial laws laid down in Leviticus 17 and 18, and three of them concerned dietary matters which could inhibit Jewish-Gentile common meals.” (Stott)


In the end, the Jewish law was not enjoined upon Gentile Christians at this conference. A strong element within the Jewish Christian Church continued to teach that Gentile Christians should keep certain features of the law. Consequently, the New Testament writers had to speak out against the works of the law.

The issue before the early church was whether justification was brought about by faith in Christ's sacrifice or works of the Law. Paul says, "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law..." (Gal. 5:4).

I'm not sure that we totally disagree. Today, basically all meat is bled on the world market to meet food standards. However, if you study in context what was being taught, the Gentiles were simply being told out of love....give a little.

The bigger issue that was of concern was these practices were all tied in some fashion to idol worship, which breaks the law of love.

Ending, we are not bound to these laws as much as we are bound to the intent. As I told you, many Gentile christians had no way of knowing if they were eating meet that wasn't bled. Certainly, they probably all ate some strangled goat meat without knowing. They certainly ate meat that was connected to idol worship in some way. They were also being taught that sin is the intent of the heart and if they still practiced idol worship in any of these behaviors, they would be sinning by not worshipping the only true God.

All things in context....culture, history...logic and reasoning. Again, we are taught the principle of the law of love and how it can apply to almost anything. If giving a little brings about peace, we should do so if it doesn't offend our conscience.

Believe me, if I'm lost and hungry in the woods and the only way I can eat is to catch a animal and strangle it, I would do so and have done so. I would let my stomach dictate if I wanted to take the time to bleed it. In all, I would not sin, because there is no intent to do harm to others....and I wouldn't be breaking any law

 

[HuntingMan]

HM, you are missing the entire point of Acts.

yeah yeah yeah....anytime you cant handle CLEAR instruction, A, you hand out this nonsense about how we're missing the point.

The POINT that is VERY CLEAR in Acts 15....one that one CANNOT overlook.....is that we GENTILES ARE INSTRUCTED to ABSTAIN from those four items and it is CEMENTED by the Holy Spirit Himself...
Blood has been FORBIDDEN since God told Noah we could eat meat !!!!


Gentiles and the Mosaic Law - Acts 15

Assertions/Conclusions of this Article
To show that Acts 15 presents that while we arent UNDER the Law of Moses that we gentiles ARE to abstain from four items as prescribed IN the law.

Supporting Evidence

In ACTS 15 when discussing whether the GENTILES should follow the law of Moses it was determined that only FOUR things were to be abstained from as per the law.

But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
(Act 15:5 KJV) .....

So we see there that the discussion was that some believing pharisees were pushing the idea that we gentiles were keep the law of Moses.
Below we see that the council has discerned that we gentiles ARENT to be bothered with keeping the whole law, but does feel that four items ARE to be abstained from.

.......Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: But that we write unto them, that they abstain from
-pollutions of idols,
-and from fornication,
-and from things strangled,
-and from blood.
(Act 15:19-20 KJV)

This is repeated again a few verses later and this time it is cemented that the Holy Spirit is involved in this command...

Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
That ye abstain from
-meats offered to idols,
-and from blood,
-and from things strangled,
-and from fornication:
from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
(Act 15:24-29 KJV)

So we see that there ARE things we GENTILES are instructed to ABSTAIN from as defined in the law even tho we arent UNDER law.


Also see:
New Testament "fornication" defined by Mosaic Law -Acts 15

 

[HuntingMan]

Gentiles were not being told to follow the laws and customs of Jewish Christians who still chose to follow these commands. The goal was to encourage community between Jews and Gentiles, so they could worship together. Simply, they were told, out of love and peace, follow these things.

Ridiculous....
you just said pertaining to fornication that it was about marrying family...ie 'incest'.

" To abstain from . . . sexual immorality: When James declares that they forbid the Gentile Christians to abstain from . . . sexual immorality, James is directing these Gentiles living in such close fellowship with the Jewish believers to observe the specific marriage regulations required by Leviticus 18, which prohibited marriages between most family relations. This was something that Jews would abhor, but most Gentiles would think little of."

So youre claim is that the gentiles were told to NOT marry their sisters and brothers in Acts 15 ?...and that it was ONLY to encourage everyone to get along ???

You HAVE to be kidding, A...
And by the way...fornication/porneia, while it DOES include incest is ALL inclusive of sexual immorality..hence why its rendered as that phrase in some bibles. when they were told to ABSTAIN from fornication the it meant to keep away from ALL sexual immorality...not just cousin luvin

 

[HuntingMan]

Gentile Christians had the &#8220;right&#8221; to eat meat sacrificed to idols, to continue their marriage practices, and to eat food without a kosher bleeding, because these were aspects of the Mosaic law they definitely were not under. However, they are encouraged to law down their &#8220;rights&#8221; in these matters as a display of love to their Jewish brethren.
In this they were keeping the law of love.

Firstly I want to see PROOF of these assertions that it was a 'right' of anyone to eat blood in the church because that particular prohibition PREdates the Law, A....but we already covered this elsewhere, didnt we.

Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. I have given you all things, even as the green herb. But you shall not eat of flesh with the life in it, or the blood of it.
(Gen 9:3-4 MKJV)

Blood has ALWAYS been forbidden and there is NO way that the church would have given right for the gentiles to ignore that long standing prohibition.

 

[Armistead]

yeah yeah yeah....anytime you cant handle CLEAR instruction, A, you hand out this nonsense about how we're missing the point.

The POINT that is VERY CLEAR in Acts 15....one that one CANNOT overlook.....is that we GENTILES ARE INSTRUCTED to ABSTAIN from those four items and it is CEMENTED by the Holy Spirit Himself...
Blood has been FORBIDDEN since God told Noah we could eat meat !!!!


Gentiles and the Mosaic Law - Acts 15

Assertions/Conclusions of this Article
To show that Acts 15 presents that while we arent UNDER the Law of Moses that we gentiles ARE to abstain from four items as prescribed IN the law.

Supporting Evidence

In ACTS 15 when discussing whether the GENTILES should follow the law of Moses it was determined that only FOUR things were to be abstained from as per the law.
So we see there that the discussion was that some believing pharisees were pushing the idea that we gentiles were keep the law of Moses.
Below we see that the council has discerned that we gentiles ARENT to be bothered with keeping the whole law, but does feel that four items ARE to be abstained from.
This is repeated again a few verses later and this time it is cemented that the Holy Spirit is involved in this command...
So we see that there ARE things we GENTILES are instructed to ABSTAIN from as defined in the law even tho we arent UNDER law.


Also see:
New Testament "fornication" defined by Mosaic Law -Acts 15

So if you were lost and starving, you had no rocks and a chicken came along...you would starve, before you rung it's neck...or beat it with a stick...ah, see how the law and works bind the man and Christ sets us free......it's in the intent my friend that harm is done, not the letter of the law.

No matter how you get around it...on one hand you say the law is dead, on the other you keep these four....mmmmm, what's the word they use for that.

You fail to see the overall lesson, the problem between Jewish and Gentile converts worshipping together, mixing customs, ect....

Really, it's a mute issue. If you feel you need to keep these laws, then you should do so.

I will continue to follow the ONE law Christ says fulfills ALL law.

Let's just agree to disagree on this one...as usual

 

[HuntingMan]

Something else thats pretty funny is that you DO seem to be allowing for incest to be presented in the definition of fornication by going to the Law (Lev 18) which is precisely what Ive presented myself....but then you seem to 'forget' to add in there that the Jews would ALSO know about the prohibition in that SAME chapter about it being forbidden for men to have sex with men.
One has to wonder why you include incest from Leviticus 18 and then casually leave out male/male sex which is ALSO forbidden there.

Gentiles were not being told to follow the laws and customs of Jewish Christians who still chose to follow these commands. The goal was to encourage community between Jews and Gentiles, so they could worship together. Simply, they were told, out of love and peace, follow these things.

Ridiculous....
you just said pertaining to fornication that it was about marrying family...ie 'incest'.

" To abstain from . . . sexual immorality: When James declares that they forbid the Gentile Christians to abstain from . . . sexual immorality, James is directing these Gentiles living in such close fellowship with the Jewish believers to observe the specific marriage regulations required by Leviticus 18, which prohibited marriages between most family relations. This was something that Jews would abhor, but most Gentiles would think little of."

So youre claim is that the gentiles were told to NOT marry their sisters and brothers in Acts 15 ?...and that it was ONLY to encourage everyone to get along ???

You HAVE to be kidding, A...
And by the way...fornication/porneia, while it DOES include incest is ALL inclusive of sexual immorality..hence why its rendered as that phrase in some bibles. when they were told to ABSTAIN from fornication the it meant to keep away from ALL sexual immorality...not just cousin luvin

All I see, A, is just one more effort on your part to reject the obvious and to be quite obvious yourself in the attempt

 

[HuntingMan]

So if you were lost and starving, you had no rocks and a chicken came along...you would starve, before you rung it's neck...or beat it with a stick...ah, see how the law and works bind the man and Christ sets us free......it's in the intent my friend that harm is done, not the letter of the law.

You take our not being UNDER law as seemingly meaning that we're to live in anarchy...no rules at all.
Im sorry but that ISNT the case and even one reading of the NT proves any such view as being entirely fallacious.

No matter how you get around it...on one hand you say the law is dead, on the other you keep these four....mmmmm, what's the word they use for that.

The law is dead ? I never said any such thing, chap.
The COVENANT made thru Moses was made obsolete at the cross.
We are not UNDER law, but we know that the law is good...and those who understand Gods word know that we DO observe the moral law...even if we are not justified by it, we do it because we love God and love our fellow man.

You fail to see the overall lesson, the problem between Jewish and Gentile converts worshipping together, mixing customs, ect....

No, I understand precisely what the issue is.
I also see that you are using that issue to define fornication as you see fit and to ignore what we gentiles ARE to follow.

Tell me that you havent read at least a dozen passages in the new testament that forbid/prohibit fornication for the WHOLE church, A...
If youve read it thru even once then we know you have.

Really, it's a mute issue. If you feel you need to keep these laws, then you should do so.

I feel to follow NT instruction because I love the Lord Jesus.

I will continue to follow the ONE law Christ says fulfills ALL law.

ie anarchy...'no rules'...

Let's just agree to disagree on this one...as usual

what other outcome is to be expected ?

 

[Armistead]

Something else thats pretty funny is that you DO seem to be allowing for incest to be presented in the definition of fornication by going to the Law (Lev 18) which is precisely what Ive presented myself....but then you seem to 'forget' to add in there that the Jews would ALSO know about the prohibition in that SAME chapter about it being forbidden for men to have sex with men.
One has to wonder why you include incest from Leviticus and then casually leave out male/male sex which is ALSO forbidden there.

All I see, A, is just one more effort on your part to reject the obvious and to be quite obvious yourself in the attempt

Fornication breaks the law of love...law or not..it is sin. Not sure what you mean I allow for incest......I'm not for it in any fashion. It became sin when God said so. It remains sin, God put it away as it became harmful....

What you refer to as male/male sex in leciticus...was just that. God forbade it, but why did he...just for the sex in itself? I don't see that. He forbade it as it was related to idol worship or forced rape of older men on younger boys. You would have to prove that the act of sex in itself are wrong.

Just as anal sex between a man and a woman is not sin should they both agree, it wouldn't be sin for two men...it's just body parts rubbing body parts. I agree, it's digusting for me...but I'm not gay. You can attach something evil to anything and make it wrong, but it doesn't make the thing in itself wrong

You use the verse to imply both the sex and the idol worship were sin, where I see a clear pattern that it wasn't the sex itself, but how it was used.

Take a gun...do you condemn the gun that was used in the murder or the murderer? The gun did nothing wrong, it was how it was used that was wrong. There are people today that say both guns and the crimes they commit are both wrong, but that's like blaming food for fat people.

The sin doesn't fit the crime..

 

[Armistead]

You take our not being UNDER law as seemingly meaning that we're to live in anarchy...no rules at all.
Im sorry but that ISNT the case and even one reading of the NT proves any such view as being entirely fallacious.

The law is dead ? I never said any such thing, chap.
The COVENANT made thru Moses was made obsolete at the cross.
We are not UNDER law, but we know that the law is good...and those who understand Gods word know that we DO observe the moral law...even if we are not justified by it, we do it because we love God and love our fellow man.


No, I understand precisely what the issue is.
I also see that you are using that issue to define fornication as you see fit and to ignore what we gentiles ARE to follow.

Tell me that you havent read at least a dozen passages in the new testament that forbid/prohibit fornication for the WHOLE church, A...
If youve read it thru even once then we know you have.


I feel to follow NT instruction because I love the Lord Jesus.

ie anarchy...'no rules'...
what other outcome is to be expected ?

Rom 13:8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law

Gal 2:16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

Gal 2:19 For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God.

Gal 2:21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness [comes] through the law, then Christ died in vain

 

[HuntingMan]

Fornication breaks the law of love...law or not..it is sin. Not sure what you mean I allow for incest......I'm not for it in any fashion. It became sin when God said so. It remains sin, God put it away as it became harmful....

you allow for, in your dissertation on Acts 15, for 'fornication' to BE defined by Leviticus 18, but you stop short at incest...that chapter ALSO includes men having sex with men....the Jews would have known this fact just as much as they knew that incest was sin...

What you refer to as male/male sex in leciticus...was just that. God forbade it, but why did he...just for the sex in itself? I don't see that.

riiight. prohibitons against incest in the SAME chapter you see.....but that one little sin there somehow escapes you or becomes clouded and complex...

He forbade it as it was related to idol worship or forced rape of older men on younger boys. You would have to prove that the act of sex in itself are wrong.

uh....where again is that in leviticus 18 which YOU have yourself shown was used to define 'fornication' in your Acts 15 essay ? I can quote it for you if you cant remember.

Just as anal sex between a man and a woman is not sin should they both agree, it wouldn't be sin for two men...it's just body parts rubbing body parts.

it is forbidden entirely between men

I agree, it's digusting for me...but I'm not gay. You can attach something evil to anything and make it wrong, but it doesn't make the thing in itself wrong

Then the same would apply to incest.....PLEASE tell me that you arent saying incest is ok too, A....

You use the verse to imply both the sex and the idol worship were sin, where I see a clear pattern that it wasn't the sex itself, but how it was used.

Sorry but YOU presented that the Jews were against incest BECAUSE of levititcus 18 which YOU claimed is meant with 'fornication' there showing conclusively that you ARE defining fornication WITH Leviticus 18 since Acts 15 makes NO mention of it.
You CANNOT say that the prohibitions agianst incest in Lev 18 are any different then the one against gay sex...they ALL are prohibited.

Take a gun...do you condemn the gun that was used in the murder or the murderer?

Oh please....do you see my screenname ? Do you know how many times a week I get this type of thing ?

The SIN is sex with anyone other than your covenant spouse of the OPPOSITE sex who is not closely related.

 

[HuntingMan]

Rom 13:8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law

Gal 2:16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

Gal 2:19 For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God.

Gal 2:21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness [comes] through the law, then Christ died in vain

.......Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
But that we write unto them, that they abstain from
-pollutions of idols,
-and from fornication,
-and from things strangled,
-and from blood.
(Act 15:19-20 KJV)


Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth. For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
That ye abstain from
-meats offered to idols,
-and from blood,
-and from things strangled,
-and from fornication:
from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
(Act 15:24-29 KJV)

 

[Armistead]

I don't think we totally disagree except in intent.

Gentiles are not under the law...The Jewish law was for JEWS only. It just seems you believe Gentiles were commanded to keep four Jewish laws the same way Jews had to keep them...Sorry, that's not what is being taught.
The Gentiles were being taught to do these things out of love...not out of keeping Jewish law, so they could attend church together in peace.

By the phrase "law of Moses" is meant all that was revealed through Moses. The New Testament treats it with great fullness and perpiscuity:

Typical Aspects. The law of Moses was only the shadow of good Things to come (Colossians 2:17; Hebrews 10:1).

Fulfillment. Jesus Christ declared His intention to Fulfill every word of the law (Matthew 5:17,18), and He did it (Luke 24:44).
Its Weakness. The law could not,
bring about justification (Acts 13:39);
produce righteousness (Galatians 2:21);
produce life (Galatians 3:21);
bring about perfection (Hebrews 7:19);
or free the conscience from a knowledge of sin (Hebrews 10:1-4).

Impossible for All Men to Keep It. The law was given to and for Israel only (Exodus 19:1-20:17; Malachi 4:4; John 1:1-17).
Take two proofs of this:
All the males of the Hebrews were commanded to appear before the Lord at a designated place three times a year (Exodus 23:14-17; Exodus 12:4-16);
those to whom the law was given were commanded, on penalty of death, not to kindle a fire throughout their habitation on the sabbath day (Exodus 35:1-3).
Abolishment of the Law. It is declared,
that the law is abolished (2 Corinthians 3:6-13; Ephesians 2:15);
that Christ is the end of the law (Romans 10:4);
that it was the ministration of death (Exodus 32:1-28), and that it is "done away" (2 Corinthians 3:7);
that Jesus took away the first that He might establish the second (Hebrews 10:5-9);
that it was nailed to the cross (Colossians 2:14-16);
that those who had been under it had been delivered from it (Romans 7:6);
that they were dead to it (Romans 7:4);
that they were not under the law, but under grace (Romans 6:14);
that they were no longer under the schoolmaster (Galatians 3:24,25);
that they were not required to serve the law (Acts 15:1-24; Galatians 3:19); that the Christian who sought justification under the law had fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4);
and that now the righteousness of God is revealed without the aid of the law (Romans 3:21,22).
Contrasted with the Gospel.

The law was intended for one nation--Israel (Exodus 20:1-17 Malachi 4:4); the gospel of Christ is intended for the whole creation (Matthew 28:18-20; Mark 16:15,16).

The first covenant was dedicated with the blood of animals (Exodus 24:6-8), the new covenant was dedicated with the blood of Jesus Christ (1 Peter 1:18,19).

The first institution was administered by frail men--the Levites (Leviticus 16:1-34; Hebrews 7:11-23); the second is administered by Jesus Christ, who was made priest, not by carnal commandment, but "after the power of an endless life" (Hebrews 7:16).

Circumcision in the flesh was a sign of the first (Genesis 17:1-14; Leviticus 12:1-13); circumcision in the heart and spirit is the sign of the second (Romans 2:25).


The law of Moses guaranteed to the obedient Hebrews temporal blessings (Deuteronomy 28:1-6); the gospel of Christ guarantees spiritual blessings to those who live up to its requirements (1 Peter 1:4).

The law of Moses guaranteed to the Hebrews the land of Canaan (Deuteronomy 30:5-10); the gospel guarantees eternal life beyond the grave to those who honor the Lord (1 John 5:20).

The law of Moses required obedience to the one true God (Exodus 20:1-5); the gospel emphasizes the Fatherhood of God (Matthew 6:9).
The law of Moses prohibited the people from taking the name of the Lord in vain (Exodus 20:7); the gospel requires that out communications be "yea" and "nay", declaring that everything beyond is evil (Matthew 5:37).

The law of Moses required the Hebrews to remember the Sabbath day (Exodus 20:8-11); in apostolic times, the people of God remembered the Savior in the feast that He ordained (Matthew 26:26-30; 1 Corinthians 11:23-29) on the first day of the week (Acts 20:7).

The law of Moses required children to honor their parents (Exodus 20:12); the gospel requires children to obey their parents in the Lord (Ephesians 6:1-4).

The law of Moses prohibited murder (Exodus 20:13); the gospel prohibits hatred (1 John 3:15).

The law of Moses forbade adultery (Exodus 20:14); the gospel prohibits even lust (Matthew 5:28).

The law of Moses prohibits stealing (Exodus 20:15); the gospel prohibits stealing and requires benevolence (Ephesians 4:28).

The law of Moses forbade the bearing of false witness (Exodus 20:16); the gospel requires us to speak the truth in love (Ephesians 4:15).

The law of Moses prohibited covetousness (Exodus 20:17); the gospel requires us to do good unto men according to our opportunities (Galatians 6:10), and love our neighbors as ourselves (Romans 13:10;
By the phrase "law of Moses" is meant all that was revealed through Moses. The New Testament treats it with great fullness and perpiscuity:

 

[Armistead]

and I still want to know...if you were starving and you had no gun, knife or stick, ect....a chicken comes along....would you strangle it to eat it?

What if you were starving and someone was frying a chicken they just strangled.....would you eat some?

Serious questions, it would clear up how you view the intent of this subject for me.

 

[HuntingMan]

I don't think we totally disagree except in intent.

Actually I think we COMPLETELY disagree on everything with intent being a minor point...

Gentiles are not under the law...The Jewish law was for JEWS only.

good grief....its like beating my head against a big rock....

read my lips...WE ARE NOT UNDER LAW....WE ARE NOT UNDER LAW....WE ARE NOT UNDER LAW...WE ARE NOT UNDER LAW

There...did you see it THAT time A ?

WE are NOT UNDER LAW.
That DOES NOT MEAN THAT there is nothing IN the law that we dont observe.
Do you have sex with your mother ? Your sister ? Father ?
You can make up ANY old excuse you want, but the FACT is we ALL know that those things are WRONG because way back when GOD SAID they were wrong.

IN ACTS 15 some of those things God said were wrong well before then were ALSO given to the GENTILES in the church to ABSTAIN from.
NOT BECAUSE THEY ARE UNDER LAW....but simply because they ARE WHAT GOD INSTRUCTS.

.......Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: But that we write unto them, that they abstain from
-pollutions of idols,
-and from fornication,
-and from things strangled,
-and from blood.
(Act 15:19-20 KJV)


Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth. For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
That ye abstain from
-meats offered to idols,
-and from blood,
-and from things strangled,
-and from fornication:
from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
(Act 15:24-29 KJV)