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My original comment was correcting a post that stated Priests do not forgive. Your post is forcing us down the road of who is a legitimate Priest. I'd rather not have to hurt any feeling today so please can we not go down that road.The "how" and mechanics of the ministerial usage of the keys depends on the denomination.
All4Christ posted the EO absolution: My spiritual child, [Name], who have confessed to my humble person, I, humble and a sinner, have not power on earth to forgive sins, but God alone; ... May that same God forgive you all things, through me a sinner,...
So in the EO, the priest is a witness to the confession and announces the absolution almost as a bystander (that is not meant as a theological statement but just as my take away).
Lutheran: Small Catechism
What is confession?
Confession consists of two parts. One is that we confess our sins. The other is that we receive the
absolution, that is, forgiveness, from the pastor as from God himself and by no means doubt but
firmly believe that our sins are thereby forgiven before God in heaven.
"Let it be done for you as you believe. And I, by the command of our Lord Jesus Christ, forgive you your sins in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Amen. Go in peace." (Luther's own basic format)
Lutheran (and possibily Anglican, @Paidiske could comment futher), acts more like Catholic where the pastor / priest is the one proclaiming the absolution, "by virtue of the office" from the 1928 BCP and the 1940 Lutheran Hymnal.
I agree with the paragraphs from the CCC.hmmm seems like we have seen that a time or two.
VIII. THE MINISTER OF THIS SACRAMENT
1461 Since Christ entrusted to his apostles the ministry of reconciliation,65 bishops who are their successors, and priests, the bishops' collaborators, continue to exercise this ministry. Indeed bishops and priests, by virtue of the sacrament of Holy Orders, have the power to forgive all sins "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."
1462 Forgiveness of sins brings reconciliation with God, but also with the Church. Since ancient times the bishop, visible head of a particular Church, has thus rightfully been considered to be the one who principally has the power and ministry of reconciliation: he is the moderator of the penitential discipline.66 Priests, his collaborators, exercise it to the extent that they have received the commission either from their bishop (or religious superior) or the Pope, according to the law of the Church.67
1463 Certain particularly grave sins incur excommunication, the most severe ecclesiastical penalty, which impedes the reception of the sacraments and the exercise of certain ecclesiastical acts, and for which absolution consequently cannot be granted, according to canon law, except by the Pope, the bishop of the place or priests authorized by them. In danger of death any priest, even if deprived of faculties for hearing confessions, can absolve from every sin and excommunication.69
1464 Priests must encourage the faithful to come to the sacrament of Penance and must make themselves available to celebrate this sacrament each time Christians reasonably ask for it.70
1465 When he celebrates the sacrament of Penance, the priest is fulfilling the ministry of the Good Shepherd who seeks the lost sheep, of the Good Samaritan who binds up wounds, of the Father who awaits the prodigal son and welcomes him on his return, and of the just and impartial judge whose judgment is both just and merciful. The priest is the sign and the instrument of God's merciful love for the sinner.
1466 The confessor is not the master of God's forgiveness, but its servant. The minister of this sacrament should unite himself to the intention and charity of Christ.71 He should have a proven knowledge of Christian behavior, experience of human affairs, respect and sensitivity toward the one who has fallen; he must love the truth, be faithful to the Magisterium of the Church, and lead the penitent with patience toward healing and full maturity. He must pray and do penance for his penitent, entrusting him to the Lord's mercy.
1467 Given the delicacy and greatness of this ministry and the respect due to persons, the Church declares that every priest who hears confessions is bound under very severe penalties to keep absolute secrecy regarding the sins that his penitents have confessed to him. He can make no use of knowledge that confession gives him about penitents' lives.72 This secret, which admits of no exceptions, is called the "sacramental seal," because what the penitent has made known to the priest remains "sealed" by the sacrament.
so you admit it is just Bishops and priests that have that power?I agree with the paragraphs from the CCC.
Excellent stuff.
Xeno.of.athens said:
Has anyone asserted that forgiving is the exclusive activity of priests, pastors, or apostles?
Yes, just them. They have that role in the sacrament of reconciliation.so you admit it is just Bishops and priests that have that power?
It's not a word game to point out that the usual English translation here is a poor rendering of the actual text. Even if you want to use the above, the passive voice makes the same point I was making; the priest announces God's forgiveness.No word game here please
Jn 20:23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them: and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.
Pretty much. We have two possible forms of words for absolution (in private confession) in my church. They run thus:Lutheran (and possibily Anglican, @Paidiske could comment futher), acts more like Catholic where the pastor / priest is the one proclaiming the absolution, "by virtue of the office" from the 1928 BCP and the 1940 Lutheran Hymnal.
If it were true, I'm sure you would have posted some sources.It's not a word game to point out that the usual English translation here is a poor rendering of the actual text.
Ugh, the is no passive voice.Even if you want to use the above, the passive voice
and the Priest himself, by His power, forgives sins.the priest announces God's forgiveness.
You need a source? Have a look here: Greek New Testament Reader with Word Parsing, Morphology, and Dictionary, Lexicon. Click on the last word in verse 23, and it will tell you that it is a "perfect passive indicative."If it were true, I'm sure you would have posted some sources.
"are forgiven"/"are retained" is passive.Ugh, the is no passive voice.
By capital-h "His"? As in, by God's?and the Priest himself, by His power, forgives sins.
Even EO baptisms are passive. As the priest immerses the baptizee, he says,It's God's forgiveness. It's not something the priest makes happen; the priest declares what God does.
Too funny. You are using the word passive on a totally wrong manner. Lok up what Perfect Passive Indicative 3rd Person Plural means. Ugh!You need a source? Have a look here: Greek New Testament Reader with Word Parsing, Morphology, and Dictionary, Lexicon. Click on the last word in verse 23, and it will tell you that it is a "perfect passive indicative."
Not on the manner you think"are forgiven"/"are retained" is passive.
so you admit it is just Bishops and priests that have that power?I agree with the paragraphs from the CCC.
Excellent stuff.
Xeno.of.athens said:
Has anyone asserted that forgiving is the exclusive activity of priests, pastors, or apostles?
Appears you have changed your mind a little.Yes, just them. They have that role in the sacrament of reconciliation.
Have a care, the sacrament is not the only source of forgiveness. You will do well to avoid unwarranted conclusions about the extent and limits of priestly authority in forgiveness generally speaking.so you admit it is just Bishops and priests that have that power?
Then you appear to be one of those people asserting that
Appears you have changed your mind a little.
I know exactly what it means.Too funny. You are using the word passive on a totally wrong manner. Lok up what Perfect Passive Indicative 3rd Person Plural means. Ugh!
Not on the manner you think
It is not the point, it was never the point, it will never be the point. The passive voice DOES NOT mean passive in activity or function.The point of the passive in this verse is that it is not the apostles (or their successors) who make the outcome (forgiveness or not) happen. The passive indicates that God has already done it (it has been done), and the apostles (or their successors) simply proclaim that.
It really is a great pity that Martin Luther separated from the Catholic Church. So much trouble has come of it. Yet, history is played out according to God's secret purposes and even the troubles that arose must be received by the faithful as somehow salutary.
So then "hate your mother and father" in Matt 10 should be isolated from all other Bible texts about loving our neighbor as ourselves as in Matt 22?? in your POV?
No text says 'The apostles' rather it is always "you" and it is in fact "each one of you" in Matt 18 just as in Matt 6 "forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors". There is never a "just the Apostles" qualifier
That is a reference to the church discipline he called the church to exercise in 1 Cor 5 -- disfellowshiping someone who was in open sin - to try and convince them to repent and return. It was a corporate action by the entire church to cast that person out.
2 Cor 2:5 But if anyone has caused sorrow, he has caused sorrow not for me, but in some degree—not to say too much—for all of you. 6 Sufficient for such a person is this punishment which was imposed by the majority, 7 so that on the other hand, you should rather forgive and comfort him, otherwise such a person might be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. 8 Therefore I urge you to reaffirm your love for him. 9 For to this end I also wrote, so that I might put you to the test, whether you are obedient in all things. 10 But one whom you forgive anything, I also forgive; for indeed what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, I did so for your sakes in the presence of Christ, 11 so that no advantage would be taken of us by Satan, for we are not ignorant of his schemes.
He calls for the entire church to forgive the repentant offender
2 Cor 7:8 For though I caused you sorrow by my letter, I do not regret it; though I did regret it—for I see that that letter caused you sorrow, though only for a while— 9 I now rejoice, not that you were made sorrowful, but that you were made sorrowful to the point of repentance; for you were made sorrowful according to the will of God, so that you might not suffer loss in anything through us. 10 For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death. 11 For behold what earnestness this very thing, this godly sorrow, has produced in you: what vindication of yourselves, what indignation, what fear, what longing, what zeal, what punishment of wrong! In everything you demonstrated yourselves to be innocent in the matter. 12 So although I wrote to you, it was not for the sake of the offender nor for the sake of the one offended, but that your earnestness in our behalf might be made known to you in the sight of God. 13 Because of this, we have been comforted.
So then "hate your mother and father" in Matt 10 should be isolated from all other Bible texts about loving our neighbor as ourselves as in Matt 22?? in your POV?
No text says 'The apostles' rather it is always "you" and it is in fact "each one of you" in Matt 18 just as in Matt 6 "forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors". There is never a "just the Apostles" qualifier
That is a reference to the church discipline he called the church to exercise in 1 Cor 5 -- disfellowshiping someone who was in open sin - to try and convince them to repent and return. It was a corporate action by the entire church to cast that person out.
2 Cor 2:5 But if anyone has caused sorrow, he has caused sorrow not for me, but in some degree—not to say too much—for all of you. 6 Sufficient for such a person is this punishment which was imposed by the majority, 7 so that on the other hand, you should rather forgive and comfort him, otherwise such a person might be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. 8 Therefore I urge you to reaffirm your love for him. 9 For to this end I also wrote, so that I might put you to the test, whether you are obedient in all things. 10 But one whom you forgive anything, I also forgive; for indeed what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, I did so for your sakes in the presence of Christ, 11 so that no advantage would be taken of us by Satan, for we are not ignorant of his schemes.
He calls for the entire church to forgive the repentant offender
2 Cor 7:8 For though I caused you sorrow by my letter, I do not regret it; though I did regret it—for I see that that letter caused you sorrow, though only for a while— 9 I now rejoice, not that you were made sorrowful, but that you were made sorrowful to the point of repentance; for you were made sorrowful according to the will of God, so that you might not suffer loss in anything through us. 10 For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death. 11 For behold what earnestness this very thing, this godly sorrow, has produced in you: what vindication of yourselves, what indignation, what fear, what longing, what zeal, what punishment of wrong! In everything you demonstrated yourselves to be innocent in the matter. 12 So although I wrote to you, it was not for the sake of the offender nor for the sake of the one offended, but that your earnestness in our behalf might be made known to you in the sight of God. 13 Because of this, we have been comforted.
It's not a word game to point out that the usual English translation here is a poor rendering of the actual text. Even if you want to use the above, the passive voice makes the same point I was making; the priest announces God's forgiveness.
Pretty much. We have two possible forms of words for absolution (in private confession) in my church. They run thus:
"Our Lord Jesus Christ, who offered himself as the perfect sacrifice to the Father, and who conferred authority on his Church to forgive sins, absolve you through my ministry by the grace of the Holy Spirit, and restore you in the perfect peace of the Church. Amen."
"Our Lord Jesus Christ,
who has left power to his Church to absolve all sinners
who truly repent and believe in him,
of his great mercy forgive you all your offences:
and by his authority, committed to me
I absolve you from all your sins,
in the name of God,
the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen."
It is clear in either case that the forgiveness is Christ's, although we proclaim it.
This is a red herring and is irrelevant to the subject matter.
Not possible in the cases I gave -What I think you aren’t getting is that clergy act on behalf of the entire church.
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