The debate about forgiving -- is it just priests that forgive?

[BobRyan]

Matt 18 informs us that the matter is not confined to priests/pastors/apostles.

Matt 18:

15 “Now if your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that on the testimony of two or three witnesses every matter may be confirmed. 17 And if he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, he is to be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 18 Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.​

Peter spells it out for us very specifically --

Matt 18: 21

Then Peter came up and said to Him, “Lord, how many times shall my brother sin against me and I still forgive him? Up to seven times?” 22 Jesus *said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy-seven times.​

Jesus makes it clear in Matt 6 - the Lord's prayer

Matt 6:12 "And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors."​

 

[BobRyan]

They do not have a priest class in Matt 18 where only they are involved in the "forgive others" and "whatever you loose on Earth" teaching in Matt 18.

 

[Unqualified]

It’s really 490 times for each offense daily. Like God will do for us, when we need it and haven’t turned away from God. We must repent each time, so as to make it such a burden that we can’t continue doing it.

 

[HTacianas]

Matt 18 informs us that the matter is not confined to priests/pastors/apostles.

Matt 18:

15 “Now if your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that on the testimony of two or three witnesses every matter may be confirmed. 17 And if he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, he is to be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 18 Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.​

Peter spells it out for us very specifically --

Matt 18: 21

Then Peter came up and said to Him, “Lord, how many times shall my brother sin against me and I still forgive him? Up to seven times?” 22 Jesus *said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy-seven times.​

Jesus makes it clear in Matt 6 - the Lord's prayer

Matt 6:12 "And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors."​

That is you forgiving others who have sinned against you. The authority of a priest to forgive sins is written at John 20:

Jhn 20:23 “If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

 

[Gregory Thompson]

It’s really 490 times for each offense daily. Like God will do for us, when we need it and haven’t turned away from God. We must repent each time, so as to make it such a burden that we can’t continue doing it.

So once you sin 490 times, God's done with you in particular?

Different from my God.

 

[Guojing]

That is you forgiving others who have sinned against you. The authority of a priest to forgive sins is written at John 20:

Jhn 20:23 “If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

Ahh, that particular instruction in the Great Commission that only the Catholics recognized.

 

[HTacianas]

Ahh, that particular instruction in the Great Commission that only the Catholics recognized.

All of Christianity recognizes it. It's only some protestant groups that don't.

 

[Guojing]

All of Christianity recognizes it. It's only some protestant groups that don't.

Well, being aware of that verse, but then reasoning that "Jesus didn't literally meant that" is not recognizing.

 

[The Liturgist]

Ahh, that particular instruction in the Great Commission that only the Catholics recognized.

Uh no, Anglicans, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Assyrians, Methodists, Moravians, Baptists, Reformed Presbyterian and Congregationalists all recognize this, which is indicated by the confiteors in their liturgy, and in the case of Lutherans, not only do Lutherans recognize it, but Martin Luther considered that confession might constitute a third sacrament in addition to the usual two recognized Protestant sacraments of Baptism and the Eucharist. Lutherans and Anglicans, who both recognize that priests have an apostolic authority to bind and loose, and reflect this in their liturgy, and also offer auricular confession (private confession with a priest), are the fourth and third largest groupings of denominations, after Eastern Orthodoxy, which is the second, and Roman Catholicism, which is the largest, and Reformed Protestantism is the fifth largest grouping. There was a thread last year in which the numbers on the size of denominational groupings, communions and individual denominations was crunched and there was some controversy which I would prefer not to repeat. Suffice it to say a clear majority of Christian denominations believe that ordained clergy who have the authority to bind and loose.

 

[The Liturgist]

That is you forgiving others who have sinned against you. The authority of a priest to forgive sins is written at John 20:

Jhn 20:23 “If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

I recall reading that the confession is made directly to Christ, which is why in Eastern Orthodoxy we confess before an icon of our Lord and venerate a hand crucifix, and the priest serves as witness and then pronounces absolution using apostolic authority delegated from bishops in valid apostolic succession as defined by St. Cyprian of Carthage.

 

[Guojing]

Uh no, Anglicans, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Assyrians, Methodists, Moravians, Baptists, Reformed Presbyterian and Congregationalists all recognize this, which is indicated by the confiteors in their liturgy, and in the case of Lutherans, not only do Lutherans recognize it, but Martin Luther considered that confession might constitute a third sacrament in addition to the usual two recognized Protestant sacraments of Baptism and the Eucharist. Lutherans and Anglicans, who both recognize that priests have an apostolic authority to bind and loose, and reflect this in their liturgy, and also offer auricular confession (private confession with a priest), are the fourth and third largest groupings of denominations, after Eastern Orthodoxy, which is the second, and Roman Catholicism, which is the largest, and Reformed Protestantism is the fifth largest grouping. There was a thread last year in which the numbers on the size of denominational groupings, communions and individual denominations was crunched and there was some controversy which I would prefer not to repeat. Suffice it to say a clear majority of Christian denominations believe that ordained clergy who have the authority to bind and loose.

Would you consider that instruction from Christ to the 12 apostles in John 20:23 part of the Great Commission as well?

Many churches, when they teach that all of us are also to fulfill the Great Commission, their favorite version being the one found in Matthew 28, don't seem to teach that we have the power to forgive sins as well.

Would you agree?

 

[All4Christ]

I recall reading that the confession is made directly to Christ, which is why in Eastern Orthodoxy we confess before an icon of our Lord and venerate a hand crucifix, and the priest serves as witness and then pronounces absolution using apostolic authority delegated from bishops in valid apostolic succession as defined by St. Cyprian of Carthage.

Behold, My Spiritual Child, Christ stands invisibly here receiving your confession. Do not be ashamed, neither be afraid, and hide nothing. Rather, do not be afraid to tell all that you have done, so that you may receive forgiveness from our Lord Jesus Christ. Behold, His Holy Icon is before us. I am only the witness, bearing testimony before Him of all that you shall say. But, if you conceal anything you shall have the greater sin. Take heed, therefore, that having come to the Divine Physician, you not depart unhealed.

 

[The Liturgist]

Curiously I only ever hear that from native English speaking ROCOR priests, although a ROCOR archimandrite who barely spoke any English had it and a standardized confession in English on laminated paper.* The best confession I ever had was with a ROCOR priest, archpriest or archimandrite who was visiting All Saints in Las Vegas on their patronal feast day in 2018…I wish I knew who that was…I should call the rector (hopefully its still the retired OCA Archbishop of Alaska whose SUV has custom license plates that say VLADYKA…I like that guy, but he has been fighting cancer even as he has been trying to build a much needed new church building on the property).

Also, when I made a confession with a Romanian hiermonk at an OCA parish, I don’t recall being asked to directed the crucifix or do other certain other things one gets accustomed to in the Russian practice. These I suspect are regional differences in the Typikon. I don’t think it is related to the difference between the Violakis Typikon and the traditional Sabaite Typikon (or its older form used by the Russian Old Believers and Edinovertsy, like the Church of the Nativity in Erie, Pennsylvania, which sells a superb line of liturgical service books).

 

[All4Christ]

…

 

[BobRyan]

That is you forgiving others who have sinned against you. The authority of a priest to forgive sins is written at John 20:

Jhn 20:23 “If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

But the context is always "those who sin against you" -- which is why there is not one case of anyone forgiving sins in general in the NT other than Christ. Every time this topic is spelled out in detail in the NT --- it is always sins of others against you.

Matt 18 informs us that the matter is not confined to priests/pastors/apostles.

Matt 18:

15 “Now if your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that on the testimony of two or three witnesses every matter may be confirmed. 17 And if he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, he is to be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 18 Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.​

Peter spells it out for us very specifically --

Matt 18: 21

Then Peter came up and said to Him, “Lord, how many times shall my brother sin against me and I still forgive him? Up to seven times?” 22 Jesus *said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy-seven times.​

Jesus makes it clear in Matt 6 - the Lord's prayer

Matt 6:12 "And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors."​

IN Matt 10 - Jesus talks about "anyone who does not hate father or mother..."

But in Matt 22 we see that Love for God and Love for our fellow human are the two greatest commandments.

Given the full context of that teaching it is easy to see Jesus did not mean we are to literally hate anyone much less parents but rather to hold obedience to God above that of parents who may direct that we disregard one of God's commands.

 

[HTacianas]

But the context is always "those who sin against you" -- which is why there is not one case of anyone forgiving sins in general in the NT other than Christ. Every time this topic is spelled out in detail in the NT --- it is always sins of others against you.




IN Matt 10 - Jesus talks about "anyone who does not hate father or mother..."

But in Matt 22 we see that Love for God and Love for our fellow human are the two greatest commandments.

Given the full context of that teaching it is easy to see Jesus did not mean we are to literally hate anyone much less parents but rather to hold obedience to God above that of parents who may direct that we disregard one of God's commands.

The context is what it appears to be, and what it has always meant in Christianity. The apostles were given the authority to forgive sins just like it says. That's the reason for Paul's "double forgiveness" of the Corinthian:

2Co 2:10 To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;

Not only did Paul personally forgive the man, but also "in the person of Christ". It's the origins of the Roman Church's in persona Christi.

 

[Paidiske]

Priests do not forgive. We proclaim God's forgiveness. The church entrusts to us the responsibility of doing so with the authority of the church behind it, but it is not something we do or make happen.

 

[BobRyan]

The context is what it appears to be, and what it has always meant in Christianity.

So then "hate your mother and father" in Matt 10 should be isolated from all other Bible texts about loving our neighbor as ourselves as in Matt 22?? in your POV?

The apostles were given the authority to forgive sins just like it says.

No text says 'The apostles' rather it is always "you" and it is in fact "each one of you" in Matt 18 just as in Matt 6 "forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors". There is never a "just the Apostles" qualifier

That's the reason for Paul's "double forgiveness" of the Corinthian:

2Co 2:10 To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;

That is a reference to the church discipline he called the church to exercise in 1 Cor 5 -- disfellowshiping someone who was in open sin - to try and convince them to repent and return. It was a corporate action by the entire church to cast that person out.

2 Cor 2:5 But if anyone has caused sorrow, he has caused sorrow not for me, but in some degree—not to say too much—for all of you. 6 Sufficient for such a person is this punishment which was imposed by the majority, 7 so that on the other hand, you should rather forgive and comfort him, otherwise such a person might be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. 8 Therefore I urge you to reaffirm your love for him. 9 For to this end I also wrote, so that I might put you to the test, whether you are obedient in all things. 10 But one whom you forgive anything, I also forgive; for indeed what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, I did so for your sakes in the presence of Christ, 11 so that no advantage would be taken of us by Satan, for we are not ignorant of his schemes.

He calls for the entire church to forgive the repentant offender

2 Cor 7:8 For though I caused you sorrow by my letter, I do not regret it; though I did regret it—for I see that that letter caused you sorrow, though only for a while— 9 I now rejoice, not that you were made sorrowful, but that you were made sorrowful to the point of repentance; for you were made sorrowful according to the will of God, so that you might not suffer loss in anything through us. 10 For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death. 11 For behold what earnestness this very thing, this godly sorrow, has produced in you: what vindication of yourselves, what indignation, what fear, what longing, what zeal, what punishment of wrong! In everything you demonstrated yourselves to be innocent in the matter. 12 So although I wrote to you, it was not for the sake of the offender nor for the sake of the one offended, but that your earnestness in our behalf might be made known to you in the sight of God. 13 Because of this, we have been comforted.

 

[BobRyan]

Priests do not forgive. We proclaim God's forgiveness.

Jesus said "That you might know that the Son of man has power on Earth to forgive sins"

Matt 9:” 3 And some of the scribes said to themselves, “This man is blaspheming!” 4 And Jesus, perceiving their thoughts, said, “Why are you thinking evil in your hearts? 5 For which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up and walk’? 6 But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—then He *said to the paralyzed man, “Get up, pick up your stretcher and go home.” 7 And he got up and went home. 8 But when the crowds saw this, they were awestruck, and they glorified God, who had given such authority to men.


In Matt 6 - each and every person is called upon to pray to God with this kind of prayer "forgive us our debts as we forgive those who transgress against us" and adds "if you do not forgive others - God will not forgive you".

So there is the forgiveness that a person gets from God - and then there is the Matt 18 kind where Peter asks "How many times shall my brother sin against me - and I still forgive him?"

 

[ViaCrucis]

Absolution is a Means of Grace, instituted by Christ for His Church. When the pastor pronounces forgiveness of sins it is not by their own personal power or authority; they are speaking in the name and authority of Jesus Christ who said, "Whoever's sins you forgive are forgiven them". When God, through Word and Sacrament, declares us forgiven we are indeed forgiven. It is real forgiveness. You are forgiven because God declares you forgiven on Christ's account.

-CryptoLutheran