The death of the Virgin in RCC imagery

98cwitr · Feb 7, 2011

AveMaria_45 said:
do i what

Do you read your Bible at home?

Dark_Lite said:
Didn't notice this little gem of an edit when I first responded to your post. Instead of continuing to make baseless accusations (which I asked you to not do) and continually asserting things, how about you actually address the points of my posts?

The basis of my accusations are still related to the topic at hand. How in the world does the RCC come up with some made up, false doctrine that the virgin Mary was resurrected and ascended to heaven. There is no basis to this whatsoever. What is the RCC going to come up with next? Santa Claus and the Easter bunny are actually real?

AveMaria_45 · Feb 7, 2011

98cwitr said:
Do you read your Bible at home?

Yes. and i am taking a study course too. everyone here should try it its free. and there is a part about what u guys are talking about too,

Lesson Six: The Queen Assumed into Heaven

Lesson Goals:
1. To understand the biblical foundations of the Dogma of the Assumption.
2. To understand the deep Old Testament symbolism and imagery in Revelation 12, and its relation to Catholic beliefs about Mary.
3. To appreciate how the biblical portrait of Mary is reflected and interpreted in the Churchs liturgy.

Lesson Outline:

PilgrimToChrist · Feb 7, 2011

AveMaria_45 said:
I thought it was about all of us. doesn't it talk to all of us? why are there so many threads h8in on Mary? she's dead, she can't hear you, on and on. some of you guys have issues

St. Louis Marie de Montfort said:
Just as in natural and bodily generation there is a father and a mother, so in the supernatural and spiritual generation there is a father who is God and a mother who is Mary. All true children of God have God for their father and Mary for their mother; anyone who does not have Mary for his mother, does not have God for his father. This is why the reprobate, such as heretics and schismatics, who hate, despise or ignore the Blessed Virgin, do not have God for their father though they arrogantly claim they have, because they do not have Mary for their mother. Indeed if they had her for their mother they would love and honour her as good and true children naturally love and honour the mother who gave them life.

An infallible and unmistakable sign by which we can distinguish a heretic, a man of false doctrine, an enemy of God, from one of God's true friends is that the heretic and the hardened sinner show nothing but contempt and indifference for our Lady. He endeavours by word and example, openly or insidiously - sometimes under specious pretexts - to belittle the love and veneration shown to her. God the Father has not told Mary to dwell in them[cf. Ecclus 24:13 -- discussed in passage prior to what I quoted] because they are, alas, other Esaus.

People who show disregard for (the only time they consider Mary is Advent-Christmas) and even such hatred for the Mother of God are showing their disregard and hatred for God. This, of course, does not concern Protestants who have simply not been taught who Mary is or that they need to love her and devote themselves to her through Marian devotions, like the Rosary, and private prayer. They labor under the burden of ignorance, which in and of itself is tragic, but it is those who send forth their vicious bile against Our Blessed Lady who are the ones who show a proximate sign of reprobation.

ibid said:
Here is what our Blessed Lady revealed to Blessed Alan de Rupe as recorded in his book, "The Dignity of the Rosary," and as told again by Cartagena: "Know, my son, and make it known to all, that lukewarmness or negligence in saying the Hail Mary, or a distaste for it, is a probable and proximate sign of eternal damnation, for by this prayer the whole world was restored."

These are terrible words but at the same time they are consoling. We should find it hard to believe them, were we not assured of their truth by Blessed Alan and by St. Dominic before him, and by so many great men since his time. The experience of many centuries is there to prove it, for it has always been common knowledge that those who bear the sign of reprobation, as all formal heretics, evil-doers, the proud and the worldly, hate and spurn the Hail Mary and the Rosary. True, heretics learn to say the Our Father but they will not countenance the Hail Mary and the Rosary and they would rather carry a snake around with them than a rosary. And there are even Catholics who, sharing the proud tendencies of their father Lucifer, despise the Hail Mary or look upon it with indifference. The Rosary, they say, is a devotion suitable only for ignorant and illiterate people.

On the other hand, we know from experience that those who show positive signs of being among the elect, appreciate and love the Hail Mary and are always glad to say it. The closer they are to God, the more they love this prayer, as our Blessed Lady went on to tell Blessed Alan.

I do not know how this should be, but it is perfectly true; and I know no surer way of discovering whether a person belongs to God than by finding out if he loves the Hail Mary and the Rosary.

St. Louis de Montfort, pray for us!
Mary Most Holy, pray for us!

Here is a pretty picture of St. Louis, Mary and Jesus but it is very large so I will not post it. An angel holds a banner which says: "Ad Jesum per Mariam" -- "To Jesus Through Mary".

GreekOrthodox · Feb 7, 2011

98cwitr said:
Did the process of canonization change the actual content of the original writings?

Actually, since we don't have the originals, we have to make due with copies. Although, the thousands of manuscripts are fairly unified, there are discrepancies such as the ending of the Gospel according to Mark, the Johannine Comma (1 John 5:7-8) and the woman caught in adultery do NOT occur in the earlier Greek manuscripts. So yes, there are changes.

Brian

Optimax · Feb 7, 2011

Optimax said:
Mary gave some of the best advice that is recorded in the Bible.

Remember the wedding?

John 2:1-2
1 And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there:

2 And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage.
KJV

This is what Mary said!

John 2:5
His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it.
KJV

Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it!

That is what Mary instructed.

Jesus said;

John 3:3
Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
KJV

John 3:7
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
KJV

Listen to Mary!

This is how to be born again.

Rom 10:9-10

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
KJV

PilgrimToChrist said:

You forgot the most important part.

Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it!

That is what Mary instructed.

Listen to Mary!
Jesus said;

John 3:3
Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
KJV

John 3:7
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
KJV
This is how to be born again.

Rom 10:9-10

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

98cwitr · Feb 7, 2011

AveMaria_45 said:
Yes. and i am taking a study course too. everyone here should try it its free. and there is a part about what u guys are talking about too,

So why did you call the Bible "messed up?"

GreekOrthodox said:
Actually, since we don't have the originals, we have to make due with copies. Although, the thousands of manuscripts are fairly unified, there are discrepancies such as the ending of the Gospel according to Mark, the Johannine Comma (1 John 5:7-8) and the woman caught in adultery do NOT occur in the earlier Greek manuscripts. So yes, there are changes.

Brian

Then have we found that God has not kept His Word? Psalms 12:6-7

OpenDoor · Feb 7, 2011

SpiritualAntiseptic said:
You should really study what Catholics believe before creating topics.

There are Catholics that believe Marry never died.

98cwitr · Feb 7, 2011

PilgrimToChrist said:
People who show disregard for (the only time they consider Mary is Advent-Christmas) and even such hatred for the Mother of God are showing their disregard and hatred for God. This, of course, does not concern Protestants who have simply not been taught who Mary is or that they need to love her and devote themselves to her through Marian devotions, like the Rosary, and private prayer. They labor under the burden of ignorance, which in and of itself is tragic, but it is those who send forth their vicious bile against Our Blessed Lady who are the ones who show a proximate sign of reprobation.

St. Louis de Montfort, pray for us!
Mary Most Holy, pray for us!

Here is a pretty picture of St. Louis, Mary and Jesus but it is very large so I will not post it. An angel holds a banner which says: "Ad Jesum per Mariam" -- "To Jesus Through Mary".

no one hates Mary, we hate the fact that many Catholics seemingly view her as a deity and worship her as such. Devotion to Mary [and not fully to the Lord Jesus] is a house divided....

ivebeenshown · Feb 7, 2011

I believe it makes more sense that she died because then she would be another great example of the resurrection. So my belief is in her death and following assumption.

AveMaria_45 · Feb 7, 2011

98cwitr said:
no one hates Mary, we hate the fact that many Catholics seemingly view her as a deity and worship her as such. Devotion to Mary [and not fully to the Lord Jesus] is a house divided....

see, there you goes again, talking but not listening. everyone is talking and no one is listening

PilgrimToChrist · Feb 7, 2011

bbbbbbb said:
As noted by others, there is wiggle room for her death in the statement that she was assumed " when the course of her earthly life was finished". There are some difficulties with either scenario, to wit:

1. If she did die she would have endured the wages of sin, which is death. That means, of course, that she was not sinless. Christ, who did die, endured the wages of sin, not of His own sin, but for the sins of the world. If He carried the penalty (death) of the sins of the world, then that would leave the penalty to be endured, for everyone else in a physical sense of the word and for unbelievers in the spiritual sense of death. No Christian believes that Mary endured spiritual death, but if she endured physical death her death was either the result of her own sin inherited as a result of the Fall or it may be, as a few have asserted, that it was in relation to her role as co-redemptix with Christ in atoning for the sins of the world.

Well, Mary did not labor under the effects of Original Sin, so she did not die as part of that. But she could have simply died, not as punishment, but merely to show the power and promise of God (as with the blind man regarding whom the Jews asked, "Who sinned that this man be born blind?").

St. John of Damascus (Damascene) says:

St. John of Damascus (+749) said:
O how does the source of life pass through death to life? O how can she obey the law of nature, who, in conceiving, surpasses the boundaries of nature? How is her spotless body made subject to death? In order to be clothed with immortality she must first put off mortality, since the Lord of nature did not reject the penalty of death. She dies according to the flesh, destroys death by death, and through corruption gains incorruption, and makes her death the source of resurrection.

I think he is alluding to what the Apostle says about the Resurrection:

1Cor 15:51-55 said:
Behold, I tell you a mystery. We shall all indeed rise again: but we shall not all be changed. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall rise again incorruptible: and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption; and this mortal must put on immortality. And when this mortal hath put on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy victory? O death, where is thy sting?

St. Francis de Sales writes:

St. Francis de Sales said:
And if this mother lived her son's life, she also died her son's death. The phoenix, as report goes, grown very aged, gathers together on the top of a mountain a quantity of aromatical wood, upon which, as upon its bed of honour, it goes to end its days: for when the sun, being at its highest, pours out its hottest beams, this sole bird, to contribute an increase of activity to the ardour of the sun, ceases not to beat with its wings upon its bed, till it has made it take fire, and burning with it is consumed, and dies in those odoriferous flames. In like manner, Theotimus, the virgin-mother, having collected in her spirit all the most beloved mysteries of the life and death of her son by a most lively and continual memory of them, and withal, ever receiving directly the most ardent inspirations which her child, the sun of justice, has cast upon human beings in the highest noon of his charity; and besides, making on her part also, a perpetual movement of contemplation, at length the sacred fire of this divine love consumed her entirely as a holocaust of sweetness, so that she died thereof, the soul being wholly ravished and transported into the arms of the dilection of her son. O, death, amorously life-giving! O, love, vitally death-giving!

Several sacred lovers were present at the death of the Saviour, amongst whom those who had the most love had the most sorrow; for love was then all steeped in sorrow, and sorrow in love; and all they who for their Saviour were impassioned with love were in love with his passion and sorrow. But the sweet Mother, who loved more than all, was more than all transfixed with the sword of sorrow. The sorrow of the Son at that time was a piercing sword, which passed through the heart of the Mother, because that Mother's heart was glued, joined and united to her Son, with so perfect a union that nothing could wound the one without inflicting a lively torture upon the other. Now this maternal bosom, being thus wounded with love, not only did not seek a cure for its wound, but loved her wound more than all cure, dearly keeping the shafts of sorrow she had received, on account of the love which had shot them into her heart, and continually desiring to die of them, since her Son died of them, who, as say all the Holy Scriptures and all Doctors, died amidst the flames of his charity, a perfect holocaust for all the sins of the world.

If the martyrs went to their death singing praises of the Divine Love and were overjoyed to unite themselves with Christ's Passion and Death, how much more did His Mother unite herself to His Passion and Death and thus she suffered spiritually and physically throughout her life, died and was raised from the dead -- in union with her Son.

2. If Mary's death was redemptive in nature, then Christ's death and atonement were incomplete and insufficient in and of themselves for the redemption of mankind.

Col 1:24 said:
... who now rejoice in my [Paul] sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church

If Paul can say this, how much more can Mary, of whom Simeon said:

Lk 2:35 said:
And thy own soul a sword shall pierce, that, out of many hearts, thoughts may be revealed.

Mary suffered throughout her whole life, especially at the Crucifixion, as St. John says:

Jn 19:25 said:
Now there stood by the cross of Jesus, his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalen

Apoc 12:1-2 said:
And a great sign appeared in heaven: A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars: and being with child, she cried travailing in birth, and was in pain to be delivered.

Mary was in pain to deliver not Christ as an infant but the infant Church born from His side:

Jn 19:34 said:
But one of the soldiers with a spear opened his side, and immediately there came out blood and water.

Christ bore the Church from His side while dead just Adam bore Eve from his side after God put him into a deep sleep.

So Mary's sufferings throughout her life did indeed involve our redemption. Indeed, all our sufferings involve our redemption. Redemption is just more complex than you want to make it out to be.

3. If Mary did not experience physical death, then it would be proof positive of her immaculate conception and sinless life.

Not really, Elijah and Enoch were taken to Heaven without first dying and they had Original Sin (and probably actual sins).

If she did die, however, it would mean that sin had entered her life, probably at the point of conception, meaning that she was not immaculately conceived, which denies the Catholic dogma of the Immaculate Conception.

Christ died and He did not contract Original Sin. Therefore death is a punishment for Original Sin but it does not follow that everyone who dies is suffering the effects of Original Sin -- since neither Christ nor His Mother suffered those effects.

Let's chew on these three for a while.

We have been "chewing" on these for more than 1500 years. These are not new discussions.

98cwitr · Feb 7, 2011

AveMaria_45 said:
see, there you goes again, talking but not listening. everyone is talking and no one is listening

how so? Are you included in 'many'?

Also, please answer my previous question.

Gregory Thompson · Feb 7, 2011

Dark_Lite said:
Why do you assume everything has to be in the Bible?

Everything that does not come from trust is sin (Romans 14:23)

PilgrimToChrist · Feb 7, 2011

Optimax said:
Could you explain how that would equates to a sign that Jesus saves the Church?

Where the Head goes, the Body must follow.

AveMaria_45 · Feb 7, 2011

98cwitr said:
how so? Are you included in 'many'?
Also, please answer my previous question.

i did. but you werent paying attention. thats why i said youre not listening. now i have to repeat it all because you want to goof around. OK, this is the only time im gonna do that,

98cwitr said:
But do you?

AveMaria_45 said:
do i what

98cwitr said:
Do you read your Bible at home?

AveMaria_45 said:
Yes. and i am taking a study course too. everyone here should try it its free. and there is a part about what u guys are talking about too,

Lesson Six: The Queen Assumed into Heaven

Lesson Goals:
1. To understand the biblical foundations of the Dogma of the Assumption.
2. To understand the deep Old Testament symbolism and imagery in Revelation 12, and its relation to Catholic beliefs about Mary.
3. To appreciate how the biblical portrait of Mary is reflected and interpreted in the Church’s liturgy.

Lesson Outline:

Seeing Mary with Catholic Eyes

Course Review

Modern Marian Dogmas

The ‘Woman’ of Revelation 12

The Ark Returns

The Queen-Bride

The First Gospel

From Scripture to Liturgy

Summary of Revelation

The Feast of the Assumption

Discussion Questions

98cwitr said:
no one hates Mary, we hate the fact that many Catholics seemingly view her as a deity and worship her as such. Devotion to Mary [and not fully to the Lord Jesus] is a house divided....

AveMaria_45 said:
see, there you goes again, talking but not listening. everyone is talking and no one is listening

PilgrimToChrist · Feb 7, 2011

98cwitr said:
chapter and verse please

Everything that has ever happened is written about in the Bible?

PilgrimToChrist · Feb 7, 2011

98cwitr said:
Here's why:

Rev 22

18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.

People try to put words into the mouth of God and then say they are holy and divine, yet they are nothing but venom. If it's about God, you'd better be able to back it up with scripture lest ye be like the devil. Man is fallible and corrupt, put down your trust for man and trust God and only God.

Eh? Where does that passage say that everything contained within the Word of God is written about in the Bible?

Also, if that passage in the Apocalypse of St. John applied to the entire Bible, wouldn't you then be subject to the penalty for having removed a large chunk of the Bible? Of course, Martin Luther said the Book of the Apocalypse wasn't Divinely inspired...

Martin Luther said:
About this book of the Revelation of John, I leave everyone free to hold his own opinions. I would not have anyone bound to my opinion or judgment. I say what I feel. I miss more than one thing in this book, and it makes me consider it to be neither apostolic nor prophetic.

First and foremost, the apostles do not deal with visions, but prophesy in clear and plain words, as do Peter and Paul, and Christ in the gospel. For it befits the apostolic office to speak clearly of Christ and his deeds, without images and visions. Moreover there is no prophet in the Old Testament, to say nothing of the New, who deals so exclusively with visions and images. For myself, I think it approximates the Fourth Book of Esdras; I can in no way detect that the Holy Spirit produced it.

Moreover he seems to me to be going much too far when he commends his own book so highly -- indeed, more than any of the other sacred books do, though they are much more important -- and threatens that if anyone takes away anything from it, God will take away from him, etc. Again, they are supposed to be blessed who keep what is written in this book; and yet no one knows what that is, to say nothing of keeping it. This is just the same as if we did not have the book at all. And there are many far better books available for us to keep.

LittleLambofJesus · Feb 7, 2011

PilgrimToChrist said:
Eh? Where does that passage say that everything contained within the Word of God is written about in the Bible?

Umm..why does it matter

Optimax · Feb 7, 2011

PilgrimToChrist said:
Where the Head goes, the Body must follow.

Yes it does, but not with a physical body, nor a resurrected one yet.
I'm sure Mary went to heaven when she died, just like any other born again person.

Now they Bible does not record the event of Mary being born again,(that I have found yet), like it does the Apostles, but I have no problem with accepting that she was.

I am sure she took her own advice and did what Jesus said to do.

This Mary thing you guys believe always gets into the biggest tap dance you do in order to prove" it.

Nice picture!

DiligentlySeekingGod · Feb 7, 2011

Michael Collum said:
Everything that does not come from trust is sin (Romans 14:23)

Amen.

The death of the Virgin in RCC imagery

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