The Dead Know Nothing?

[Michelina]

To answer your question, DF: 'the brain' is an instrument which processes knowledge acquired thru the senses. If the instrument is damaged, it cannot perform its function properly. Aquinas: quidquid recipitur secundum modum recipientis recipitur = whatever is received is received in accordance with the mode of receiving of the receiver. The MODE of perception is damaged and the ability of the person to think is damaged but the knowledge already known is not lost. In the resurrection, damaged brains will be restored.

Knowledge is a property of the soul. It is our souls that are made in the image and likeness of God, who has no body nor brain. God has intellect, will and immortality. These qualities which we receive from Him when He creates our individual souls are immortal. They do not depend on the brain but use the brain as an instrument.

When God uses a human being in a prophetic way, He communicates to the mind of the human instrument thru his spirit. The instrument does not understand where this knowledge comes from. It is simply in his mind. It is true that such an instrument uses the brain in order to communicate this acquired knowledge and to reflect on it consciously.

Consciuosness and knowledge are not the same thing. Brain damage can affect consciousness and many other mental faculties but the perdurance of the human mind (even thru death-which is the ultimate 'damage' a brain can suffer) is quite evident in Scripture and is discernible thru reflection on the immateriality of a knowing-loving-immortal God.

Reading Aquinas's De Anima is difficult and requires a good deal of metaphysics to understand. But a book on the same subject by a Thomistic philosopher might smoothe the way.

 

[Michelina]

To answer ps139's brilliant question:

Where are the bodies of Enoch, Elais, (Moses probably), Our Lord and Our Mother??? "Where" denotes a place, space. No one responded to his query. I know how that feels.

"Where are the bodies?" "In heaven" isn't much of an answer. The Jews in the OT speak of heavens. They believed there were seven heavens. If there were only one heaven, outside of time and space where the transcendant God alone dwells, where would PHYSICAL bodies be? There must be another dimension within the universe for bodies. These other dimensions were called the heavens by the Jews. (While it is true that Jewish cosmology is not infallibly revealed, I respect it as the product of centuries of thought by God-centered men. And SS which is inspired uses the term heavens most of the time.)

Back in the 80's I heard (on Christian radio) a lecture by a Christian cosmologist who had received an award for a paper he had recently completed and published. Working from Einstein's Field Theory, he had mathematically demonstrated that there are at least 4 more dimensions to the physical universe beside the 2 we know (Time and Space) and that there may be as many as 11. So Jewish cosmology is -at least- possible.

We don't know anything about these dimensions-heavens but at least we have a way of understanding that they do exist and that when Our Lord or Our Mother appear to someone, it is a real Body that is seen, not a facsimile.

 

[Michelina]

So Moses was raptured too? Where is this in the Bible?

As Ax said, it seems implied as possible. Notable: Moses is not buried anywhere, or rather, there is no known place of burial. He died on Mount Nebo (not in promised land) but there is no spot where anyone says he is buried. Very unusal for the Jews who were very fussy about having a proper tomb. Esp in regard to such a monumental chap like Moses. Just makes you think that he was taken to heaven by Michael who by Divine strength was not about to lose the wrestling match with Lucifer.

What else can Jude's words mean? Fighting over the BODY of Moses?

 

[ps139]

To answer ps139's brilliant question:

Where are the bodies of Enoch, Elais, (Moses probably), Our Lord and Our Mother??? "Where" denotes a place, space. No one responded to his query. I know how that feels.

"Where are the bodies?" "In heaven" isn't much of an answer. The Jews in the OT speak of heavens. They believed there were seven heavens. If there were only one heaven, outside of time and space where the transcendant God alone dwells, where would PHYSICAL bodies be? There must be another dimension within the universe for bodies. These other dimensions were called the heavens by the Jews. (While it is true that Jewish cosmology is not infallibly revealed, I respect it as the product of centuries of thought by God-centered men. And SS which is inspired uses the term heavens most of the time.)

Back in the 80's I heard (on Christian radio) a lecture by a Christian cosmologist who had received an award for a paper he had recently completed and published. Working from Einstein's Field Theory, he had mathematically demonstrated that there are at least 4 more dimensions to the physical universe beside the 2 we know (Time and Space) and that there may be as many as 11. So Jewish cosmology is -at least- possible.

We don't know anything about these dimensions-heavens but at least we have a way of understanding that they do exist and that when Our Lord or Our Mother appear to someone, it is a real Body that is seen, not a facsimile.

So - although the gates of Heaven had not yet been opened -
Moses, Enoch, Elijah - pre-Christ- could have been in a different dimension of heaven? I guess they would have to be, right? If they were not, how would the Transfiguration be possible?

 

[KennySe]

Jesus is at the right hand of the Father. (Nothing nobody here doesn't already know.)

And in which "level" of Heaven is Jesus' body?

Just as we should not divide Jesus two natures when he walked the Earth, so too I think we should remember to not divide his two natures now.

Jesus rose from the dead. ALL of Him. he told the Apostles so; he even showed them his wounds from the Passion.

So, as far as I read, when the Book of Revelation says there are elders before the Throne, why cannot that mean that those are their very complete selves?

And how far is Mary from Her Son and God?

**

And regarding the Transfiguration, who was there speaking with Jesus, and were they only apparitions?

****

Back to the OP, if the dead know nothing, then why should Moses and Elias appear to Jesus at the transfiguration, if those 2 prophets didn't know anything?

 

[Michelina]

So - although the gates of Heaven had not yet been opened -
Moses, Enoch, Elijah - pre-Christ- could have been in a different dimension of heaven? I guess they would have to be, right? If they were not, how would the Transfiguration be possible?

Excellent point, ps139! The bodies of Moses and Elias were in one of the heavens, but not the heaven to which we look forward. That place where they were was called by different names, "Abode of the Just" etc. These 'heavens' may be co-terminal with our time and space or may partially overlap.

 

[Michelina]

Jesus is at the right hand of the Father. (Nothing nobody here doesn't already know.)

And in which "level" of Heaven is Jesus' body?

We don't know. Perhaps all or most.

Just as we should not divide Jesus two natures when he walked the Earth, so too I think we should remember to not divide his two natures now.

We couldn't even if we wanted to.

Jesus rose from the dead. ALL of Him. he told the Apostles so; he even showed them his wounds from the Passion.

There's no question that He is body and soul in 'heaven'. So heaven has a physical reality to it. The trouble is people have an either/or mentality about this. I can understand that but Einstein has given us a key insight that enables us to ask ps139's question -"WHERE"

So, as far as I read, when the Book of Revelation says there are elders before the Throne, why cannot that mean that those are their very complete selves

And how far is Mary from Her Son and God??

She can't be separated from God, her Son.

And regarding the Transfiguration, who was there speaking with Jesus, and were they only apparitions?

Back to the OP, if the dead know nothing, then why should Moses and Eli'jah appear to Jesus at the transfiguration, if those 2 prophets didn't know anything?

The thing is: one of them for sure (and both probably) have their bodies and it is interesting that these two come to visit Our Lord.

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

Some of this stuff we can't know yet, and its all speculation. But we can see from Scriptural revelation that those three were assumed and avoided the "prison" (purgatory?) of the Old Testament.

 

[Michelina]

Of course, it's speculative, DF. But we can see that heaven and the heavens have a lot more to them than meets the eye. There is a physical quality to at least one dimension.

We can wonder about how Jesus is present to us in time and space, how He can be physically present in the MBSacrament in so many Tabernacles throughout the world. Of course, we can simply say "It's miraculous" and leave it at that. But pondering these things bears valuable fruit. If Aquinas had not taken Aristotlean metaphysics and used it as he pondered the nature of Our Lord's Sacramental presence, we would not have the knowledge that the word Transubstantion gives us and the consequent ability to explain our Faith, adore Him more fully and deepen our devotion. (Which is really what theology is all about.)

MetaPhysics follows physics, drawing insight from newly understood principles.

Where ARE the bodies of Jesus, Mary, Enoch, Elias (and Moses and possibly others)? Did they cease to exist or are they someplace? I think that that question is brilliant because the person who asks it sees a logical problem and with the assurance of strong Faith, he does not fear to ask it or speculate about the answer.