The Date of Pascha

[OrthodoxyUSA]

So, are you familiar with the Synaxarion? And do you have a link?

Certainly.

A link to an online synaxarion? ...or the Synaxarion that we use at the chanters stand?

I have always liked http://www.oca.org/FSlives.asp?SID=4

Forgive me...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Then I quoted a few sources from Alexandria that said Passover is on the 14th, the date of Jesus' death.

I recall you quoting a single source...? Did you present more?

Forgive me...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Well, think of it differently, why would those in Jerusalem do things differently that what they did with Jesus Christ?

Besides, it says that they did adopt the Roman (catholic) usage.


PS. Wanted to add that still your OP has no source for the claim that Jesus died on the 13th. NO scripture. NO early church father. NO Council. NO Tradition. So, brother Ortho, let's not talk of my so-called assumptions when I have shown numerous quotes from numerous sources all saying that Jesus died on the 14th.

St. James taught from Jerusalem for 30 years.

What did he teach?

Forgive me...

 

[Rick Otto]

I fail to see the problem. The women came to the tomb very early Sunday morning around dawn. Christ rose during the night.

We announce the Resurrection in our Church at midnight.

I was confused by the wording...
Mat 28:1 In the end of the sabbath,
whichever sabbath, it hadn't ended, this scene is IN the end.
as it began to dawn toward the first [day] of the week,
"began to dawn toward" is extremely problematic for me. The end & beginning of a day is at sunset instead of midnight, so how could it EVER "dawn" toward a day? It would have to "dusk toward a day", no?
came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

It sounds like they show up at or near the begining (dusk) of a new day, but the use of the word "dawn" is causing me to disconnect & go blank.

 

[Standing Up]

I was confused by the wording...
Mat 28:1 In the end of the sabbath,
whichever sabbath, it hadn't ended, this scene is IN the end.
as it began to dawn toward the first [day] of the week,
"began to dawn toward" is extremely problematic for me. The end & beginning of a day is at sunset instead of midnight, so how could it EVER "dawn" toward a day? It would have to "dusk toward a day", no?
came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

It sounds like they show up at or near the begining (dusk) of a new day, but the use of the word "dawn" is causing me to disconnect & go blank.

End of a day, beginning of another. Sunset. This might help. Recall I mentioned that epiphosko is used in Lk 23:54 and in Mt 28:1:

The evening of the sabbath was called amongst the Jews light. ...
But the Gemarists upon the place affirm that the evening is not improperly called light, and prove it from that expression, Psalm 148:3: Praise him all ye stars of light. However unsuitably therefore it might sound in the ears of Greeks or Latins, when they hear the evening or the beginning of the night expressed by the light of the sabbath, yet with the Jews it was a way of expression very usual: and they could readily understand the evangelist speaking in their own vulgar way, when he would tell us the night of the sabbath drew on; but expresseth it by the light of the sabbath began to shine.
From the Talmud and Hebraica | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

See v54 toward the end. It's very interesting. I don't agree with everything (no surprise ), but very revealing to help about light/dawn at the end of a day.

 

[Standing Up]

Six Days Before the Passover (John 12:1) - Appendix to the Companion Bible


the conclusion of the appendix



I challenge you both (or whomever) to look at the appendix and see if there is anything that you disagree with...
it seems to me that you both are incorrect about the date, as far as the day of the week goes...

See post (I think) #24 and #29 about the word "since" (apo). Since means from, after. It doesn't mean out from within (ek). Sunday is the third day since these things (handed over, crucified).

Sunday 3, Saturday 2, Friday 1. Since handed over and crucified. Thursday is the only day Luke could mean.

What of burial? Luke is specific, since handed over and crucified. When was burial?

 

[Standing Up]

St. James taught from Jerusalem for 30 years.

What did he teach?

Forgive me...

He would have taught that Jesus Christ was handed over and crucified on the 14th. Buried on the 15th. And rose out from the dead on the third day 16th.

 

[Standing Up]

Certainly.

A link to an online synaxarion? ...or the Synaxarion that we use at the chanters stand?

I have always liked OCA - The Lives of the Saints

Forgive me...

Thanks. The reason is that a Fr (friar?) confirmed that the document says Christ died on the 14th.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Thanks. The reason is that a Fr (friar?) confirmed that the document says Christ died on the 14th.

Which document? The Synaxarion is a collection of the lives of the Saints.

Forgive me...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

He would have taught that Jesus Christ was handed over and crucified on the 14th. Buried on the 15th. And rose out from the dead on the third day 16th.

He would have taught??? Thats conjecture.

I asked what he taught.

Forgive me...

 

[Standing Up]

He would have taught??? Thats conjecture.

I asked what he taught.

Forgive me...

"Would have" in the sense that he did so some 2000 years ago. He's not presently walking about teaching the same to faithful men.

So, he taught ...

 

[Standing Up]

Which document? The Synaxarion is a collection of the lives of the Saints.

Forgive me...

He quoted this: "At the dawn of day on a Friday that fell on the twenty third of March, Jesus, bound by Caiaphas, was sent to Pontius Pilate.... And in the ninth hour Jesus, the Lamb of God, who took away the sins of the world cried with a loud voice, It is finished, and gave up the ghost, at the very hour in which the Lamb of the Mosaic Passover was being slaughtered, which the Jews had been commanded to sacrifice every year as a symbol of him 1642 years previously. The moon on that night was full. ..."

And he concluded that the Orthodox church officially teaches that Christ indeed died on the 14th Passover.

So, Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria, even Rome up to Sixtus taught the same; that is, Christ died on the 14th. (Which day that was (Wed, thur, fri, sat) is a different discussion prehaps.

PS. I think your OP author simply was confused and no one bothered to check his work. Just haven't seen anyone else ever say Christ died on the 13th. Again, the author doesn't cite any Council or ECF for his opinion.

 

[buzuxi02]

The date of Pascha in the Early Church

The early Church in the East continued to observe Pascha on the eve of the 14 th of Nisan, according the Jewish Calendar, with the Resurrection on the third day, that is on the 15th. That meant that the Resurrection could fall on any day of the week. In Rome and Alexandria, however, the early Christians always kept the Resurrection on a Sunday.

Gotta love it brother (ignoring the supposed 15th as resurrection and Alexandria cite for the moment)

PS. I do thank you for posting the link.

Alexandria is a church of the east. What you mean is the churches of asia minor who were of the heritage of John the evangelist observed pascha on the actual date regardless if it was a sunday. The churches of Asia Minor are those identified in Revelation and would have included Byzantium as well.
Antioch was a major city in Syria, Turkey was not existing at the time, but the western two thirds of modern day Turkey would have been known as (and still is) as Anatolia. Antioch before the 15th century was syrian.

All of the churches of the east outside of Asia Minor still observed Pascha on sunday, this included the major churches of Palestine, Antioch, Alexandria, Cyprus, Greece & other areas of Anatolia..

 

[buzuxi02]

There is actually no conflict between saying Christ died on the thirteenth or the fourteenth. The early Fathers would use the julian calendar and its keeping of time interchangeably with the hebrew usage of the start of a new day at sundown.

Thus Christ was crucified on Friday the 13th, julian or gregorian understanding. This is precisely why friday the 13th is viewed as a bad omen, it stems from this dark day in human history. Of course at sunset is the start of the sabbath and would be considered the 14th(friday evening).

Thus Nisan 14 in the year our Lord was crucified would be on April 13th, sunset would have been Nisan 15 (april 14) and the ressurection on Nissan 16 (april 15).

Now if you really want food for thought according to the Royal Greenwhich Observatory if Christ was crucified in 32 a.d. that friday would have been an April the 12th.

 

[Standing Up]

Alexandria is a church of the east. What you mean is the churches of asia minor who were of the heritage of John the evangelist observed pascha on the actual date regardless if it was a sunday. The churches of Asia Minor are those identified in Revelation and would have included Byzantium as well.
Antioch was a major city in Syria, Turkey was not existing at the time, but the western two thirds of modern day Turkey would have been known as (and still is) as Anatolia. Antioch before the 15th century was syrian.

All of the churches of the east outside of Asia Minor still observed Pascha on sunday, this included the major churches of Palestine, Antioch, Alexandria, Cyprus, Greece & other areas of Anatolia..

So, you're suggesting this (Jerusalem as center):

Alexandria/Africa is west.
Asia Minor is east.
Antioch and Rome is north.
and south?

 

[Standing Up]

There is actually no conflict between saying Christ died on the thirteenth or the fourteenth. The early Fathers would use the julian calendar and its keeping of time interchangeably with the hebrew usage of the start of a new day at sundown.

Thus Christ was crucified on Friday the 13th, julian or gregorian understanding. This is precisely why friday the 13th is viewed as a bad omen, it stems from this dark day in human history. Of course at sunset is the start of the sabbath and would be considered the 14th(friday evening).

Thus Nisan 14 in the year our Lord was crucified would be on April 13th, sunset would have been Nisan 15 (april 14) and the ressurection on Nissan 16 (april 15).

Now if you really want food for thought according to the Royal Greenwhich Observatory if Christ was crucified in 32 a.d. that friday would have been an April the 12th.

Kinda mixing things. Julian and Gregorian calendars weren't even around then. But yes a day changed at sunset.

The deal is the OP quoted someone who said that Christ died on Nisan 13. But the Antioch church itself per the quote given a few posts ago (#92) concludes that Christ died on Passover itself Nisan 14.

Neither scripture or any early church father ever said Christ died on the 13th. To assert that is to misunderstand John and the situation.

So, Alexandria and Antioch and Jerusalem say Christ died on Passover Nisan 14th. Rome says Christ died on Nisan 15. But no one says Christ died on the 13th.