The Date of Pascha

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Having studied the Scriptures, and the Quartodeciman controversy in depth, it is my conclusion that Polycarp, Polycrates and the churches in the East were correctly following Biblical and Apostolic teaching/tradition concerning the Pascha being observed on 14 Nisan.

When Anicetus of Rome raised his protest, being a true protestant, he had no direct Apostolic connection. Polycarp did, and was correct to reject the pompous attempt at a powerplay by Anicetus, as were the eastern churches correct to reject the later protest and attempt at a pompous power grab by Victor of Rome as well.

Why would you say Anicetus of Rome had no direct Apostolic connection?

Forgive me...

 

[Standing Up]

Since you said this:

Interesting that Antioch and Alexandria were both taught the same thing at the same time from the same source.

Forgive me...

Then I quoted a few sources from Alexandria that said Passover is on the 14th, the date of Jesus' death.

But that's Alexandria, not Jerusalem.

I think this is a translation error, or his error. In either case it would be correct if it said the 'eve of' the 14th. The wording... the way it stands is confusing.

I note also that the Churches of Asia Minor were asking about the feast of the Saviour’s passover... not the feast of HIS resurrection.

Forgive me...

So now what are you saying? Antioch followed Jerusalem and did not follow Alexandria?

 

[Standing Up]

Why would you say Anicetus of Rome had no direct Apostolic connection?

Forgive me...

One could answer in two ways.

Irenaeus: Peter to Linus.
Tertullian: Peter to Clement.

Since they contradict (and there is no clarity on at least the first five "popes"), at best we may conclude, we simply do not know for sure whether there was an apostolic connection. Why follow doubt?

Or we could simply agree with Irenaue who clearly traces the start of Rome's custom to Presbyter Sixtus. Irenaeus cites named apostles for Presbyter Polycarp's tradition and Presbyter Sixtus for Presbyter Anicetus' custom.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Since you said this:



Then I quoted a few sources from Alexandria that said Passover is on the 14th, the date of Jesus' death.



So now what are you saying? Antioch followed Jerusalem and did not follow Alexandria?

I have always maintained that Antioch followed Jerusalem.

Alexandria was taught by Jerusalem also, at the same time as Antioch.

Forgive me...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

One could answer in two ways.

Irenaeus: Peter to Linus.
Tertullian: Peter to Clement.

Since they contradict (and there is no clarity on at least the first five "popes"), at best we may conclude, we simply do not know for sure whether there was an apostolic connection. Why follow doubt?

Or we could simply agree with Irenaue who clearly traces the start of Rome's custom to Presbyter Sixtus. Irenaeus cites named apostles for Presbyter Polycarp's tradition and Presbyter Sixtus for Presbyter Anicetus' custom.

All of the Apostolic Churches agree that St. Peter went to Rome.

Forgive me...

 

[Deut 5:29]

All of the Apostolic Churches agree that St. Peter went to Rome.
.

You mean none of them know the truth? Huh!

 

[Standing Up]

All of the Apostolic Churches agree that St. Peter went to Rome.

Forgive me...

Understood. That is why Irenaeus traces the CUSTOM back to Presbyter Sixtus. He traced Polycarp's TRADITION back to apostles. Irenaeus DOES NOT say Anicetus followed apostle Peter.

Yes, Irenaeus says Polycarp and Anicetus agreed to disagree. Sure, but the fruit of Anicetus' choice is clear to us who look backward. Last I looked OO, EO, RC, and a few others aren't in one accord with one practice about the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

 

[Standing Up]

I have always maintained that Antioch followed Jerusalem.

Alexandria was taught by Jerusalem also, at the same time as Antioch.

Forgive me...

Well, in a certain sense yes. It all began at Jerusalem. Jesus was there. He taught the apostles. They went forth to Antioch, Alexandria, and Rome. One mind, one body, one Church. So how is it we have the following today:

According to your Antioch OP, Jesus died on the 13th Friday.

Alexandria, Jesus died on the 14th Friday.

Rome, Jesus died on the 15th Friday.

Jerusalem, Jesus died on the 14th.

Like I said, I've not run across any ECF, any scripture, anyone, but your OP, that asserts Jesus died on the 13th and he's some 2000 years removed.

I understand your reply, well they slew the lambs on the 13th eve and Christ died on the 13th, but they ate on the 14th. Again, I've not come across anyone who ever taught that in hundreds of hours of research. (I looked through your OP again and don't see his source for that assertion.) The ECFs taught either that they slew the lambs as the 14th began and ate on the 14th and Christ died on the 14th (Asia Minor per Polycarp, Alexandria at first per Tertullian, Antioch at first per Chrysostom, Jerusalem at first) OR they teach that they slew the lambs on the 14th eve and ate on the 15th and Christ died on the 15th (Rome since Sixtus and the others since Nicea).

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

You mean none of them know the truth? Huh!

You do know that St. Peter was at Antioch correct?

Where does Antioch say he went when he left?

Rome.

Forgive me...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Jerusalem, Jesus died on the 14th.

Help me see this one.

Forgive me...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I understand your reply, well they slew the lambs on the 13th eve and Christ died on the 13th, but they ate on the 14th.

Exd 12:6 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.

Exd 12:7 And they shall take of the blood, and strike [it] on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they shall eat it.

Exd 12:8 And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; [and] with bitter [herbs] they shall eat it.



The Hebrew day 'starts' with the evening.

Friday the 13th is when they killed the lambs. Late in the day.

They eat that night.

Forgive me...

 

[Deut 5:29]

Exd 12:6 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.

Exd 12:7 And they shall take of the blood, and strike [it] on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they shall eat it.

Exd 12:8 And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; [and] with bitter [herbs] they shall eat it.



The Hebrew day 'starts' with the evening.

Friday the 13th is when they killed the lambs. Late in the day.

They eat that night.

Why do you say they killed the lambs on the 13th and then go on to quote scriptures that prove the Passover lambs were killed on the 14th?
That's wierd.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Why do you say they killed the lambs on the 13th and then go on to quote scripture that prove the Passover lambs were killed on the 14th?
That's wierd.

Did you miss the part that the day starts with the evening?

Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Forgive me...

 

[Deut 5:29]

Did you miss the part that the day starts with the evening?



Forgive me...

No I didn't, that's why I ask.

 

[Standing Up]

Exd 12:6 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.

Exd 12:7 And they shall take of the blood, and strike [it] on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they shall eat it.

Exd 12:8 And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; [and] with bitter [herbs] they shall eat it.



The Hebrew day 'starts' with the evening.

Friday the 13th is when they killed the lambs. Late in the day.

They eat that night.

Forgive me...

I understand from where you're coming. If we continue, please keep in mind that all the ECFs at first said Christ died on the 14th. There are none that I'm aware of that say He died on the 13th. But later, some would assert that He died on the 15th.

Day of death, the Passover:
0 on the 13th.
All on the 14th for the first 100 years. Then still most the next 200 years.
Later, some on the 15th .

Evening morning a day. Keep the lamb until, slay it in the evening (sunset). Not at 3pm, of the 13th, but at sunset as the 14th begins. Eat that night of the 14th. They all taught that the lambs were slain on the 14th and eaten that night. I know this doesn't seem to align with John, but there's an explanation; and again, in any event, that is what they all taught at first: death on the 14th.

 

[Deut 5:29]

Days begin and end at sun down according to God. The Passover lamb was to be killed at evening at the beginning of the 14th. Not before.

The 14th day of the first month is The Passover. Lev. 23:5
Jesus was crucified on The Passover. Lk. 22:15 and Jo. 13:1.
Jesus was the real Passover Lamb that the Passover pointed forward to.

The women stayed with Jesus until He was buried. Mat. 27: 60-61 and
Mk. 15:46-47 That was at sun down, beginning the 15th day of the month.

The 15th day of the first month is the First Day of Unleavened Bread.
This is the first annual Sabbath of the year. Lev. 23:6-7.

In Jo. 19:31 This special Sabbath is referred to as a “High Day.” Not a normal weekly Sabbath. [Again note Lev. 23:6-7]

Since it was the day after The Passover we know that it was The First Day of Unleavened bread. It always is.

Mk. 16:1 Explains that after this Sabbath the women went out and bought spices.

Lk. 23:56 Shows that after the women bought and prepared the spices they rested on the next Sabbath according to the commandment. The forth commandment to be exact.

So simple a child could understand; a child of God that is.

 

[JohnRabbit]

Days begin and end at sun down according to God. The Passover lamb was to be killed at evening at the beginning of the 14th. Not before.

The 14th day of the first month is The Passover. Lev. 23:5
Jesus was crucified on The Passover. Lk. 22:15 and Jo. 13:1.
Jesus was the real Passover Lamb that the Passover pointed forward to.

The women stayed with Jesus until He was buried. Mat. 27: 60-61 and
Mk. 15:46-47 That was at sun down, beginning the 15th day of the month.

The 15th day of the first month is the First Day of Unleavened Bread.
This is the first annual Sabbath of the year. Lev. 23:6-7.

In Jo. 19:31 This special Sabbath is referred to as a “High Day.” Not a normal weekly Sabbath. [Again note Lev. 23:6-7]

Since it was the day after The Passover we know that it was The First Day of Unleavened bread. It always is.

Mk. 16:1 Explains that after this Sabbath the women went out and bought spices.

Lk. 23:56 Shows that after the women bought and prepared the spices they rested on the next Sabbath according to the commandment. The forth commandment to be exact.

So simple a child could understand; a child of God that is.

this is correct!

 

[Standing Up]

Originally Posted by Standing Up

Jerusalem, Jesus died on the 14th.
​

Help me see this one.

Forgive me...

Leaving aside the contradictory dates for a moment, the OP, and nearly all of Christendom, has been taught that they slew the lambs between 3-6pm. Then they would eat it the next day. This teaching, however, only came about after the temple destruction. Before that, it was universally known and agreed that they slayed the lamb at sunset as the 14th began.

Evening morning a day. Not 3-6pm, sunset/evening, morning a day, for that in fact would be accounted as two days.

It's the "going in", as in the sun sinks into the horizon, at sunset.

Deut. 16:6

KJV But at the place which the LORD thy God shall choose to place his name in, there thou shalt sacrifice the passover at even, at the going down of the sun, at the season that thou camest forth out of Egypt.

NASB but at the place where the LORD your God chooses to establish His name, you shall sacrifice the Passover in the evening at sunset, at the time that you came out of Egypt.

YNG except at the place which Jehovah thy God doth choose to cause His name to tabernacle -- there thou dost sacrifice the passover in the evening, at the going in of the sun, the season of thy coming out of Egypt;

ESV but at the place that the Lord your God will choose, to make his name dwell in it, there you shall offer the Passover sacrifice, in the evening at sunset, at the time you came out of Egypt.

Joshua 8:29
He hung the king of Ai on a tree, leaving him exposed until evening. 1 At sunset Joshua ordered that his corpse be taken down from the tree. 2 They threw it down at the entrance of the city gate and erected over it a large pile of stones (it remains to this very day). 3

 

[Standing Up]

this is correct!

See posts #24 and #29.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Originally Posted by Standing Up

Jerusalem, Jesus died on the 14th.
​

Leaving aside the contradictory dates for a moment, the OP, and nearly all of Christendom, has been taught that they slew the lambs between 3-6pm. Then they would eat it the next day. This teaching, however, only came about after the temple destruction. Before that, it was universally known and agreed that they slayed the lamb at sunset as the 14th began.

Evening morning a day. Not 3-6pm, sunset/evening, morning a day, for that in fact would be accounted as two days.

It's the "going in", as in the sun sinks into the horizon, at sunset.

Deut. 16:6

KJV But at the place which the LORD thy God shall choose to place his name in, there thou shalt sacrifice the passover at even, at the going down of the sun, at the season that thou camest forth out of Egypt.

NASB but at the place where the LORD your God chooses to establish His name, you shall sacrifice the Passover in the evening at sunset, at the time that you came out of Egypt.

YNG except at the place which Jehovah thy God doth choose to cause His name to tabernacle -- there thou dost sacrifice the passover in the evening, at the going in of the sun, the season of thy coming out of Egypt;

ESV but at the place that the Lord your God will choose, to make his name dwell in it, there you shall offer the Passover sacrifice, in the evening at sunset, at the time you came out of Egypt.

Joshua 8:29
He hung the king of Ai on a tree, leaving him exposed until evening. 1 At sunset Joshua ordered that his corpse be taken down from the tree. 2 They threw it down at the entrance of the city gate and erected over it a large pile of stones (it remains to this very day). 3

That doesn't do anything to substantiate what The Church of Jerusalem taught.

Forgive me...