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SoldierOfTheKing

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Actually, up until recently, a lot of academia (secular and theological) outside of Catholicism believed the beast/antichrist/man of sin of Revelation was the Papacy. Now-a-days I guess it's not politically correct to point out such things...

Whether the Pope is the anti-Christ is a question of interpretation of Bible prophecy. Whether the Middle Ages were a particularly backward period of history is a question of academic history. The Reformers called the papacy the anti-Christ on the ground that it was claiming for itself authority that it had no legitimate claim to - its mouth was writing checks that its behind couldn't cash. Whether Roman Catholic cultures were backward is another matter entirely.
 
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Root of Jesse

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What millions? The Catholics? Those who died because of their Catholic faith?
 
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dqhall

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Sails were invented long before the Dark Ages. A wall mural at Akrotiri on the Greek island of Santorini from c. 1600 BC were preserved under volcanic ash after the volcano Thera erupted. The wall painting showed sail boats on the water.
 
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EastCoastRemnant

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He's trying to create a side wash with this thread... if the "if people think the dark ages weren't as bad as history records, then the Papacy gets a pass as well."

Pope John Paul II gave a similar quasi apology for "past sins of the church even though they really weren't that bad" speech in the year 2000.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/vatican-looks-back-at-inquisition/
 
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Lepanto

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Your ideas might be right, but read these first:

If the Papacy were the beast, then
  • why would it survive for 2000 years ? (nothing evil could last that long)
  • why Hollywood movies only attack the Catholic Church, not Protestantism ?
  • why the beast (what you call the Papacy) would inspire people to do works of love ? (Mother Teresa, St Vincent de Paul, Jeanne Jugan, etc)
_________________________________________________________________________________________
Without knowing it, you've been deceived into looking at everything upside down.

What belong to God, you associate them with evil.
What belong to the Devil, you associate them with truth.
Which is better? Obedience or disobedience ? Humility or lack of humility? To do good works or don't do good works?
The Catholic Church, through its hierarchy (incl. Papacy), teaches and trains us to learn obedience and humility.
The Catholic Church teaches us to avoid sins and do good works. Martin Luther taught people to reject all these.
_________________________________________________________________________________________

Now which one belongs to God ? And which belongs to the Devil?

 
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EastCoastRemnant

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My replies are in blue...

 
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EastCoastRemnant

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Not just the reformers recognized the Papacy as the antichrist power... you respect Isaac Newton? How about some of these other historical figures?

 
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Quid est Veritas?

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The terms were coined by Petrarch, and then continued to the present day. See how many people in this thread believe in them? Why?
Lack of historical education and the human tendency to believe what they prefer.
Wrong answer. You need to realize how long the period was. Outremer was during the middle of it. The Church was always against slavery. Always. That members of the Church didn't heed the Church is nothing new, really.
I know how long the Mediaeval period was and the fact is that slavery was practiced throughout it. The Church is not the be all and end all of the period, so to say it was extinguished is disengenuous.
Not being able to eradicate it is quite different from not being able to cure it. By that logic, the only curable disease is Smallpox.
Yes the Roman population began to decline from about 200 AD along with the Roman decline that set in, but it fell precipitously at the fall of the Western Empire. The population differences were quite palpable between the High Middle-Ages and the Principate and based on human fertility, they should have been comparable if all other factors were equal.
The reasons that the Roman plagues didn't kill as many as the Black Death was due to effective quarantining and public health measures which weren't adequately applied in the Middle Ages. These plagues were also first exposure events to pathogens so could have been equivalently deadly if not for effective Roman countermeasures and baseline health of their population.
All of this appears to have continued well into the Renaissance and the age of "Enlightenment".
Not really, they often didn't even continue into late Roman times. Londinium had a sewer system for instance and London only got one in the 19th century. Some survival of Roman works were present in Italy, but in most of Europe these disappeared.
What I wonder is "What was wrong with scholasticism, as a method of teaching and learning?"
Not as much as the Renaissance scholars made out. They threw the baby out with the bathwater somewhat. But it wasn't perfect, based on rigid definitions of mostly Aristotle.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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Yes the Satyricon or de Nuptiis Philologiae et Mercurii was a long allegory on teaching which established the seven mediaeval liberal arts.
Its eighth book teaches a modified geo-heliocentric worldview as you described, which Copernicus singled out as important for strongly suggesting that the other planets revolve around the sun as well. I was being a bit disengenuous there, I apologise.
However it still supports my point that Copernicus's theory is as much a product of the Renaissance as the Middle Ages.
As to Astronomy, it remained closely wedded to Astrology right up to the 17th century, so the Mediaeval practice thereof is not markedly different from the Ancients'. It did advance somewhat though in certain fields, it is true, but not in others. The Greeks for instance had a closer approximation of the Earth's circumference than the Mediaeval one, which was significantly too small (Which incidentally explains why Columbus thought he had reached India as by his reckoning, he should have been there as there was no space for America)
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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No, Serfdom was often cruel.
Its not the same as your free except when at work, for anything you make or do with your own hands, even in your off time, belonged to your Lord as you did not own your own labour. You couldn't move and you couldn't quit either and your Lord could force you to work whenever he pleases except for the Sabbath and high Holy days.
Also as I pointed out, you were obligated to use your Lord's services such as mills, an effective monopoly.

The Abolition of Slavery occured after both the Renaissance and Enlightenment. Being Morally frowned upon is not the same as ending it. So Prostitution was also absent in the Middle Ages then for instance? That argument doesn't hold water.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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Why is it a decline? Why isn't use of Latin progress? Having Latin as the common language allowed free thinking across the continent, with professors traveling freely between universities and able to teach their students?
Latin was not a decline. The Loss of Greek was. This is especcially egregious as most of the important texts were written therein, including the New Testament.
Its the same as the decline of Latin in our School systems since the world wars is a decline of our civilisation, in my opinion.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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I thought this was because of the accidental burning of a great library. And because of the bad economy of Rome. Some writers try to trick people into thinking Christianity did harm.
Look at China and Arabia, India... they were not under the pope.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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From a practical, historical viewpoint, I think the main reason a "slow-down" in progress can be cited as having been endemic of the so-called Dark Ages, despite all of the blaming of Christianity that Skeptics like to attribute for the stall, really stems from the fact that Roman math (with its limited, abacus style calculations and its clunky numerals) was long held onto in Europe and did not begin to be let go of and replaced by more complex Arabic-Hindi style math until well into the 2nd Millennium A.D.

...Skeptics probably also like using Christianity as the scapegoat for a lack of progress in the West because it's just easier to blame Christianity for all of the short-comings that seem to be present in the world. It's not reasonable, it's just easier.

2PhiloVoid
 
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SoldierOfTheKing

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Civilizations, like all organic entities, are born, grow, mature and die. The Early Middle Ages was merely an intermediate period between the fall of one civilization and the rise of another. Decline is just as much an integral feature of history as progress is, just as death is as much an integral feature of biology as birth.
 
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Lepanto

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Dear EastCoastRemnant, when you said the Pope is the beast, that's only based on YOUR OWN interpretation of the Bible. Are you sure you are right???
____________________________________________________________________________________________

You said: Satan is the power behind this entity and he has been perpetrating evil for 6000 years now.
You mean God did allow a heretical church to mislead people for that long (2000 years), while the true Church remained obscured for so long??? You are insulting God.

You said: Maybe the Jews of Hollywood have an axe to grind with the RCC...
Every Christian with some good sense knows that the Hollywood belongs to the Devil. Now would the Devil spend so much money each year just to attack his own subordinates ??? Why would not he rather spend that large amount of money to attack God's Church ???

You said: "Many will say to me on the day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not do all these wonderful things in your name?' and I will say unto them, depart ye workers of iniquity..."
Mother Teresa, Saint Vincent de Paul, Jeanne Jugan, Saint Mary Mackillop, etc have benefited so many people and brought so many to Christ.
They are all workers of iniquity? What right do you have to say so ???
 
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EastCoastRemnant

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My replies, again, in blue...
 
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Root of Jesse

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The fact is the Church did everything she could to stop it. That some didn't listen or ignored her is a big "duh". So the Renaissance wasn't really a renaissance, and the Dark Ages weren't dark. That's why I said they're a myth. Yet many today still believe them, maybe because they were taught in school?
Not as much as the Renaissance scholars made out. They threw the baby out with the bathwater somewhat. But it wasn't perfect, based on rigid definitions of mostly Aristotle.
Exactly my point. But, is there a system that's perfect?
 
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Root of Jesse

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No, Serfdom was often cruel.
So are many professions today. For what it's worth, a Lord was responsible for the protection and well-being of the serfs, whereas a slave-owner could kill or maim or sell a slave. I'm not suggesting that serfs had it all that good, but it is very different from being owned.
The Abolition of Slavery occured after both the Renaissance and Enlightenment. Being Morally frowned upon is not the same as ending it. So Prostitution was also absent in the Middle Ages then for instance? That argument doesn't hold water.
The point is that all previous civilizations allowed slavery, into the Middle Ages. It was customary to use slaves. There was also the idea of indentured people, too. In the Middle Ages, the Church declared that slaves could be baptized as Christians, and were, therefore allowed dignity. If a person was a Christian, how could the owners keep them? Slavery practically disappeared in the Middle Ages because of the Church, but it reappeared later, especially in the New World. Even then, the Church opposed it, many papal bulls declared slave-owners to be excommunicated. But being so far away, it's hard to make demands. This is one of the reasons the Church sent missionaries to the NewWorld-to try to keep the Spanish, Portuguese, and French honest, and to protect those they subjugated. But that's speaking of more modern slavery. It's pretty telling that British Colonies totally subjugated slaves here, while the Catholic areas (Louisiana and the Gulf Coast, the Carribean, and the Southwest) had many more free blacks and natives.
 
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Root of Jesse

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But Christianity of that time was almost completely Catholic with a few heretic sects thrown in. Also wonder why it's taught in school to this day. Personally, I believe there's an anti-Catholic bias.
 
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mikpat

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Christ founded the Church (Catholic) in order to continue His work of redemption for all time. Christ wished to delegate to the Church the same office and the same mandate which He had Himself received from the Father in order to continue them,, thru the three -fold office delegated, to the Church by Christ —- the teaching office, the pastoral office, and the sacerdotal office.
Thus the Catholic Church is Christ continuing and perpetually working on earth. "And behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world," (Mat 28, 19)
He that heareth you heareth Me, and he that despiseth you, despiseth Me." Luke 10, 16.

With over thousands of heretical teachings, hundreds of schismatics, I'm sure the protesting reformers had all sorts of name -calling, expletives, etc……to hurl at Christ's Church……..
 
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