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The damned as a failed creation?

Teshuvah777

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Almost all discussion on salvation revolves around the concept of "free will". I'm not going to get into that whatsoever because that line of thinking has been done to death.

There is a much more pressing question: WHY do human beings and (and angels) choose sin? This has to be the excruciatingly stupid decision that any supposedly intelligent entity could ever make and yet at one point every last one of this made such a choice. For the sake of this discussion let's focus on those who choose sin to the very end of their lives. It is a completely toxic poison that not only destroys others but also the one who harbors it. Even Satan, the second most advanced being in existence, has made the most stupid of all decisions to an unlimited degree. If the most luminous of the archangels could make such an absurd decision then it has to be incredibly easy for humans to fall into the trap of sin. Let's just make the question a bit easier to work with and focus on humans.

First, not only does sin damage the one who commits it but it also leads to everlasting anguish in Hell. Could a sufficiently knowledgeable being ever voluntarily chose to enter such a place? It does not seem possible to me that anyone would chose infinite immeasurable agony over the relatively minor embarrassment of ending up in a heaven they don't deserve. It is ultimately a choice between unlimited happiness or precisely ZERO happiness...forever.

So what is happening here?! How can there be two seemingly equal intelligent humans and one of them chooses wisdom and the other total madness? What is different about each of them that leads to these wildly different outcomes?!

There are a few nearly incomprehensible but possible explanations:

1. Every soul comes with a built in "random number generator" that God chooses to not touch or tinker with most of the time or all of the time. Some will choose good and some will choose evil for absolutely no reason. This is very problematic from any theological perspective because God is described as being intimately involved with everything in existence.

2. There is a plan to create all possible variations of humans. The alternative is that these beings would otherwise not exist. So if their very identify is connected to their rebellion and love of evil then they will never stray from it for any reason. So out of an unlimited number of variations there are only two possible states: be miserable in life and existence in Hell or not ever exist at all. This is only problematic from a mathematical perspective because it requires an infinite multiverse to create these many variations. The Bible does not describe anything resembling mirror universes so this is all up to our speculation. Unless the total number of possible variations is much much smaller for reasons we don't yet understand.

3. God deliberately makes certain beings inherently stupid/mentally haywire in order to make an ultimate point about his own nature. This is the most disturbing explanation but it does have some Bible verses that sort of hint at it.

His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

-Matthew 3:12


I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.
16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.


19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this? 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?


22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory

-Romans 14-23

It is very possible that this extreme terminology is not literal and that these "chaff" and very undesirable "clay pots" can be born again into something entirely different. However, there is nothing within them that can make this transformation so it is a moot point. Only God can change them.*

So beings who remain in rebellion are pretty much worthless chaff or really ugly clay pots that are only made for a demonstration of destruction. In doing so, God provides a terrible exposition of the consequences of sin and rebellion. His love for them seems to extend only insofar as allowing them to exist at all.

So even though we are supposed to share the gospel there will be an enormous percentage of the population that is inherently incapable of comprehending the value and purpose of holiness. We have the option of praying for those common pots to be turned into something else but we know that most will remain hopeless.

This is an extremely difficult question....


*Some may have a "road to Damascus experience" just like Paul but it does beg the question of how much of this receptiveness to the presence of God is wired into that particular person's mind and soul. There were at least a few who witnessed the miraculous first hand and still outright rejected Christ.
 
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Winken

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The first humans were born in a state of perfection in a perfect place. Incredibly, they chose to question their existence. That was sinful. That was disobedience. And it has been going on ever since. The choice is obvious: continue in sin right up through death, in exchange for eternal separation from our Creator, or surrender to our Creator in exchange for eternal life in a restored state of perfection in a perfect place.
 
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Teshuvah777

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The first humans were born in a state of perfection in a perfect place. Incredibly, they chose to question their existence. That was sinful. That was disobedience. And it has been going on ever since. The choice is obvious: continue in sin right up through death, in exchange for eternal separation from our Creator, or surrender to our Creator in exchange for eternal life in a restored state of perfection in a perfect place.

Why did they start to question and why are humans stupid enough to choose sin?
 
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Winken

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So why is life so messed up? We Christians, sadly, don't get out of the way of His ongoing, continual, never-ending Spiritual witness, HIS witness that will be ours until we meet our Savior face-to-face. Think about it. A steady stream of Spiritual instruction, a laser beam of Godliness since the born-again experience (John 3:3), and we won't get out of the way. For those who do not know our Savior, it is akin to dwelling in darkness, when a light switch is within easy reach. Who continues to dwell in darkness? The atheist, the cultist, the agnostic, the religionists (Christian Faith is not religion nor "a" religion).

HIS Way is The Way.
 
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Kenny'sID

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Why did they start to question and why are humans stupid enough to choose sin?

Could be as simple as they didn't take God seriously.

It's just like some people I've known..."Oh, God would never do that to anyone" "How could a loving God possibly do that?" or the like.

Some even go so far as to convince themselves they can live a perpetually sinful life and be just fine.

As far as blatantly disobeying, knowing full well the outcome, I almost have to think it must be one of the prior or similar that makes them do as they do. They have to delude themselves in some way, it's the only thing that makes sense because no one can possibly like going to hell.
 
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Galatea

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It is spiritual pride, I think, that causes people to choose damnation. An unwillingness to recognize one's lost state, an unwillingness to trust God. Most people want to trust themselves and think they are good enough on their own merits to go to Heaven.

Even a person choosing a totally depraved lifestyle thinks he is good enough for Heaven if he isn't a murderer or someone like Hitler. In his heart he says "I'm just as good as person X who proclaims to be a Christian" (which may very well be true, as we judge goodness).

The older I get, the more I believe people will not be saved because they are trusting themselves.
 
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A_Thinker

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Almost all discussion on salvation revolves around the concept of "free will". I'm not going to get into that whatsoever because that line of thinking has been done to death.

There is a much more pressing question: WHY do human beings and (and angels) choose sin? This has to be the excruciatingly stupid decision that any supposedly intelligent entity could ever make and yet at one point every last one of this made such a choice. For the sake of this discussion let's focus on those who choose sin to the very end of their lives. It is a completely toxic poison that not only destroys others but also the one who harbors it. Even Satan, the second most advanced being in existence, has made the most stupid of all decisions to an unlimited degree. If the most luminous of the archangels could make such an absurd decision then it has to be incredibly easy for humans to fall into the trap of sin. Let's just make the question a bit easier to work with and focus on humans.

First, not only does sin damage the one who commits it but it also leads to everlasting anguish in Hell. Could a sufficiently knowledgeable being ever voluntarily chose to enter such a place? It does not seem possible to me that anyone would chose infinite immeasurable agony over the relatively minor embarrassment of ending up in a heaven they don't deserve. It is ultimately a choice between unlimited happiness or precisely ZERO happiness...forever.

So what is happening here?! How can there be two seemingly equal intelligent humans and one of them chooses wisdom and the other total madness? What is different about each of them that leads to these wildly different outcomes?!

There are a few nearly incomprehensible but possible explanations:

1. Every soul comes with a built in "random number generator" that God chooses to not touch or tinker with most of the time or all of the time. Some will choose good and some will choose evil for absolutely no reason. This is very problematic from any theological perspective because God is described as being intimately involved with everything in existence.

2. There is a plan to create all possible variations of humans. The alternative is that these beings would otherwise not exist. So if their very identify is connected to their rebellion and love of evil then they will never stray from it for any reason. So out of an unlimited number of variations there are only two possible states: be miserable in life and existence in Hell or not ever exist at all. This is only problematic from a mathematical perspective because it requires an infinite multiverse to create these many variations. The Bible does not describe anything resembling mirror universes so this is all up to our speculation. Unless the total number of possible variations is much much smaller for reasons we don't yet understand.

3. God deliberately makes certain beings inherently stupid/mentally haywire in order to make an ultimate point about his own nature. This is the most disturbing explanation but it does have some Bible verses that sort of hint at it.

His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

-Matthew 3:12


I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.
16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.


19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this? 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?


22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory

-Romans 14-23

It is very possible that this extreme terminology is not literal and that these "chaff" and very undesirable "clay pots" can be born again into something entirely different. However, there is nothing within them that can make this transformation so it is a moot point. Only God can change them.*

So beings who remain in rebellion are pretty much worthless chaff or really ugly clay pots that are only made for a demonstration of destruction. In doing so, God provides a terrible exposition of the consequences of sin and rebellion. His love for them seems to extend only insofar as allowing them to exist at all.

So even though we are supposed to share the gospel there will be an enormous percentage of the population that is inherently incapable of comprehending the value and purpose of holiness. We have the option of praying for those common pots to be turned into something else but we know that most will remain hopeless.

This is an extremely difficult question....


*Some may have a "road to Damascus experience" just like Paul but it does beg the question of how much of this receptiveness to the presence of God is wired into that particular person's mind and soul. There were at least a few who witnessed the miraculous first hand and still outright rejected Christ.

I have often thought that God created human variation such that some will ultimately choose God's way, ... while others will not.

After all, that's how things work in all other areas of human existence. For instance, some choose to be criminal, ... some do not. Some choose to be responsible, ... some do not.

Our genetic makeup/nature (and the effects of nurture) make possible a wide variance of humans. I have (2) stepsons who are almost direct opposites, ... yet they had the same mother and father, ... and the same upbringing. However, they had different gifts and abilities, and different objectives in life. That has resulted in them becoming very different persons.

One can imagine a creation where God grants genetic ability for faith to propagate throughout the human species, ... but not in a consistent way. Some get the necessary grace, ... some do not.

I do not believe a hell of eternal conscious suffering for humans, ... so, ultimately, those failed creations simply pass out of existence (through death). And God would have gleaned faithful sons and daughters from the midst of the human experiment.
 
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MikePTL

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Interesting question. I don't think you'll find a definite answer for it. You'll have to stick with what was taught through the ages and make up your own mind on those answers, or investigate yourself.

St. Augustine or "Augustinianism", today known as Calvinism, sort of teaches that there is no "free will" in choosing God. God chooses you. You are too warped to ever choose God on your own. - The question of "why would you choose sin?" becomes the question of "why would you choose God?"

In Calvinist theology this is called "total depravity", and the only solution is "irrestistable grace", which God chooses to give or withhold.

Catholics are not that extreme, they do not teach Augustinianism, but they also never denied it. They teach that grace moves your free will, but unless moved, you're stuck. The idea of complete free will is not Christian, or at least not part of any Christian theology. (Modern Christian theology, yes. But not traditional Christian theology.)

The question really is: Do you have free will? You might think so, but do you? What influences you? What has influenced you? No person ever was created or exists in a vacuum. Every action has a cause. You cannot control certain things.

In Christian terms: Creation was perfect. Until the Fall. Now it's completely and utterly f****d up. That's why Jesus came. Not to make you better. But to pay for the mess. We're so totally rotten there's no way to even have an idea what God might be like. All human fancies. We don't know anything. - And should God choose to do so, he might allow grace to birth a heart anew. That is regeneration, that is "being born again", that is when a sinner begins to "see" the kingdom of God as said in the Gospel of John.

We don't choose it. God does. Why? How can you know the mind of God? Nobody knows why.

Creation is already failed. Christianity is about the new Adam. The old one messed up.

Peace, my brother.
 
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A_Thinker

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Interesting question. I don't think you'll find a definite answer for it. You'll have to stick with what was taught through the ages and make up your own mind on those answers, or investigate yourself.

St. Augustine or "Augustinianism", today known as Calvinism, sort of teaches that there is no "free will" in choosing God. God chooses you. You are too warped to ever choose God on your own. - The question of "why would you choose sin?" becomes the question of "why would you choose God?"

In Calvinist theology this is called "total depravity", and the only solution is "irrestistable grace", which God chooses to give or withhold.

Catholics are not that extreme, they do not teach Augustinianism, but they also never denied it. They teach that grace moves your free will, but unless moved, you're stuck. The idea of complete free will is not Christian, or at least not part of any Christian theology. (Modern Christian theology, yes. But not traditional Christian theology.)

The question really is: Do you have free will? You might think so, but do you? What influences you? What has influenced you? No person ever was created or exists in a vacuum. Every action has a cause. You cannot control certain things.

In Christian terms: Creation was perfect. Until the Fall. Now it's completely and utterly f****d up. That's why Jesus came. Not to make you better. But to pay for the mess. We're so totally rotten there's no way to even have an idea what God might be like. All human fancies. We don't know anything. - And should God choose to do so, he might allow grace to birth a heart anew. That is regeneration, that is "being born again", that is when a sinner begins to "see" the kingdom of God as said in the Gospel of John.

We don't choose it. God does. Why? How can you know the mind of God? Nobody knows why.

Creation is already failed. Christianity is about the new Adam. The old one messed up.

Peace, my brother.

What is the purpose for a failed Creation ?

To rescue ... ???
 
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MikePTL

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What is the purpose for a failed Creation ?

To rescue ... ???
That is an even better question. If you go deep down into it, philosophically, it makes no sense whatsoever. Christianity, as all other religions, have only one purpose, to make sense of a meaningless existence. The different stories try to make sense in different ways, fitting to the culture in which they were created.

There is no purpose for a failed creation, to answer your question. None whatsoever. It's an anthropomorphic idea that provides meaning, and if sophisticated and logical enough, can withstand many onslaughts... hence we see these arguments with science by less-sophisticated theologies or those too rigid to adapt.

I'm still a Christian though. Why is a longer story.
 
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Sanoy

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The content of those verses are pretty hard to handle. It set me back as well. But they don't refer to what we think.

If you open up Romans 9 and start from the beginning we find Paul in anguish over the state of Israel and the "time of the Gentiles". This is the time period where Israel rejects Christ until the time of the Gentiles is completed. God has a special plan in the end for Israel for them to turn back to him.

This next section compares this situation to Jacob and Esau where it is prophesied that the older will serve the younger. Older Israel will serve the younger Gentiles.

Finally it transitions to this idea of the potter and the pots and who are we to accuse the potter. We think this is referring to individuals but it's referring to Jews and Gentiles corporately. It's not all Jews, Paul is a Jew, the Disciples were Jews. It's referring to a nation corporately.
 
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Teshuvah777

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There are two erroneous assumptions that have been made on this thread.

1. That Satan was an archangel
2. That Adam was deceived and that his actions were based on that deception.

Please elaborate. These are not obvious
 
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Teshuvah777

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The content of those verses are pretty hard to handle. It set me back as well. But they don't refer to what we think.

If you open up Romans 9 and start from the beginning we find Paul in anguish over the state of Israel and the "time of the Gentiles". This is the time period where Israel rejects Christ until the time of the Gentiles is completed. God has a special plan in the end for Israel for them to turn back to him.

This next section compares this situation to Jacob and Esau where it is prophesied that the older will server the younger. Older Israel will server the younger Gentiles.

Finally it transitions to this idea of the potter and the pots and who are we to accuse the potter. We think this is referring to individuals but it's referring to Jews and Gentiles corporately. It's not all Jews, Paul is a Jew, the Disciples were Jews. It's referring to a nation corporately.

That explanation seems to resolve a lot of problems.
 
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Radrook

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Please elaborate. These are not obvious

There was a listening to his wife's persuasive voice involved.

Genesis 3:17
New International Version
To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat from it,' "Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat food from it all the days of your life.

But no deception:
1 Timothy 2:14
New International Version
And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.


2 Corinthians 11:3
I am afraid, however, that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may be led astray from your simple and pure devotion to Christ.

Here is an in depth commentary on the subject:
Did Adam sin for love - creation.com
-------------------------------------------------------

The concept that Satan was a beautiful Cherub is based on the following passage which was directed at the king of Tyre but which is understood as an allusion to Satan who was placed in the Garden of Eden to protect and guide mankind but because of his pride turned against God.

"Thou sealest up the *sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. Thou hast been in Eden, the
garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl,
the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of
thy **tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Thou art the
anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou
hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the
day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. By the multitude of thy merchandise they
have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane
out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones
of fire. Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of
thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee."
~Ezekiel 28:12-17
 
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