The Da Vinci Code

[Mayflower1]

The Bible IS truth though. God wouldn't lie to us. You don't want to call God a lyer.

 

[Byelotsar]

The Bible IS truth though. God wouldn't lie to us. You don't want to call God a lyer.

This is, to be frank, precisely why I'm an agnostic (there's the wikipedia link for you, by the way ). My point was (and remains) that using the Bible to confirm the Bible is circular. If we believe a thing to be true because it tells us it is true, even if that is correct, we can never understand why it is true from any logical standpoint. Your statement is blind faith, which I just can't do.

You believe the Bible is inerrant and God's word. Groovy. That's your deal, and while I disagree with the accuracy of your belief it's also not my business. Religion doesn't have to be logical, after all, and those who practice it have no imperative to defend it logically either.

 

[michabo]

The Bible IS truth though. God wouldn't lie to us. You don't want to call God a lyer.

God lied to Muhammed and Joseph Smith. Why wouldn't he lie to other people?

 

[michabo]

What makes your truth correct if you're so sure the Christian truth is incorrect?

Same reason that you have to believe that Muhammed, Joseph Smith, Manni, Zoroaster, and every other prophet is incorrect.

There are many more hundreds of historical documents to substantiate the life of Christ as written in His Holy Word than there are historical documents to give credence to the DaVinci Code lie.

The Christians burned all of the documents that would reveal the Truth.

Prove me wrong

And yet again you speak as though you have the truth on this issue, but Christians all have a hard time getting the truth. Can you explain that to me?

Simple. It's due to the nature of faith. You use it, I don't. Faith gives belief, not knowledge.

How do you account for man's second law of thermodynamics as it relates to the evolutionary process?

Oh please, don't embarass yourself.

1Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world. 1 John 4:1-3

So there are bad sprits out there.

Of course, you only have some ancient writings. There's every reason to believe that the Bible was inspired by evil spirits, making up their own tests for their own evil leader, Jesus Christ.

Now, if you're right and you could actually test it, like this scripture says, then you'd be on to something. Maybe you should drink poison and see if you live, like the bible says.

Second thought, better not.

But if you're not a Christian and you're not endowed with the power of the Holy Spirit, how do you know what truth the Holy Spirit is capable of delivering to the Christian?

If you gain any knowledge from the holy spirit, please share it. You're bluffing.

That statement is relative truth because it's true relative to what YOU want to believe.

Nope. Read again. You're the faith person, remember?

 

[Vegas]

Here is the verse that speaks to me as being "Breathed out" by God Himself and not just inspired by:

Inspired means inspired in whatever language you translate it...

An artist is inspired by a beautiful sunset, a child by the love of their mother or father, lovers are inspired by their love, mankind is inspired by God.
It doesn't mean it was dictated or written by God anymore than it means Joyce Kilmer's poetic: "only God can make a tree" was written by God or a tree.

Remember that the word for spirit is the same in many languages as wind or breath.

 

[crumbs2000]

And I will repeat something that nonChristians keep confusing. God has not told Christians to convince you that His Word is His Word, so why all of the quibbling over its accuracy if you're not a Christian?

If you're not a Christian, I'm more interested in sharing Christ with you than proving the accuracy of God's Word.

Accept Jesus Christ and you get your proof.

I'm sorry, but your rationale doesn't make sense. You keep asserting that God is the word the truth etc. etc. It's not fact. It's faith and belief.

My belief in Christ doesn't make it the absolute truth since that is what religion is all about. Faith in somethign whch can't be proven.

And as far as the Bible is concerned, well, I believe a lot of it is not God inspired because if it is then there wouldn't be so much conflicting accounts on the essence of God. One minute, he's compassionate and loving the other, he orders the wholesale slaughetr and rape of the Midianites.

Or this order for the killing of men and raping the women and forced sexual servitude from Judges 21.

So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.
The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the Lord had left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked, "How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God's curse."

Then they thought of the annual festival of the Lord held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, 'Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn't find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'" So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes.


Killing every first born in Egypt?

The book of Joshua? More killing.

Most of the people killed in the old testament were for the most part blameless except they were not Israelites being members of another tribe.

This is why I believe it was written for an audience by war hungry men and did not come from God. What then suddenly God says - Oh I made mistakes so I'll set everything right now in the New Testament???

And that's your absolute truth? A bunch of stories which have no factual basis in itself but only begs belief.

 

[crumbs2000]

"God is the one who gives permission. God defines the parameters in which Satan can operate. God is in total control. God has declared that He owns the earth and all of its fullness.

God had the right to the earth when He judged the world with the great flood.

God had the right to drive the wicked inhabitants of Canaan and give it to Israel.

The Bible says that God raises up and casts down all authority according to His purposes (Daniel 2:21 Romans 13:1). The Bible also says that God raises up the wicked for His purposes (Romans 9:16-17)."

hmmm i need to learn where the quote function is.

what you said above implies that not only does god control all the evil in the world, he causes it for his own agenda - this imho would indicate a maelevolent entity, which he cannot be, this surely is a contradiction.

but you then say he merely allows the devil to devour souls, purely cause he gives choice to all, but was the devil created by god to serve this purpose?

satan you say can influence this earth as much as he desires within his power allotment, i'd like to know what that was, are angels the same as us except have natural immortality and dont reproduce? if so then where is satan influencing ppl to do the evils and sinning - unless god still feeds him to do this - which clearly shows god desires evil to be there and influence ppl. this isnt necessarily their choice to do evil then, surely the will of an immortal weilding gods powers can corrupt any mere mortal. they have no more choice than the antelope being eaten by the lion.

so surely it is poor ethics for god to punish at will when the reason they are punishable is because he is feeding, what im sure he has guessed by now to be, the hereld of sin with his divine might - which cannot be resisted.

good gracious i have spiralled off the topic like mad

Yes and following on from this.......

If God knows everythhing one can conclude that he knows how each one of us will turn out. Following that logic, if one were to watch DaVinci Code or read the book and then loses their faith or God forbid, become an agnostic/atheist etc. then he would have forseen that anyway right?

So what's a Christian to worry about then?

 

[Animus]

The Bible IS truth though. God wouldn't lie to us. You don't want to call God a lyer.

God didn't write the bible...

 

[crumbs2000]

Just as God didn't write the Q'uran and many other works that people belive in. And yet all these 'beliefs' are touted as 'truths'.

Have I missed something here?

 

[michabo]

Just as God didn't write the Q'uran and many other works that people belive in. And yet all these 'beliefs' are touted as 'truths'.

What do you mean God didn't write the Q'uran?!?

The Q'uran is truth! God wouldn't lie.

 

[Animus]

So did God write the Bhagavad Gita? I may be having a crisis of faith here...

 

[.Mikha'el.]

Is it unethical to watch a movie you know is completely wrong.

It all depends on the reason for watching. I have seen many a Christian condemn both the novel and the movie simply based on what they have heard through the media.

I wanted to make a more informed reaction, so I both read the novel and saw the movie. I think that such self-education is perfectly okay. How can we Christians possibly condemn these works if we do not really know the contents within?

However, I do take issue with Christians doing these activties for the purposes of entertainment, because then we prmote the distortion of the Christian faith that is taking place with these works.

 

[rambot]

Actually, it's unethical to make a movie that is pure garbage.
Sorry to those who liked it but I could NOT find one redeeming feature of that movie. It is not that I am a Christian bashing it because of it's heresy.

I am Christian bashing it because it was a TERRIBLE MOVIE.

Christians and non-Christians alike...avoid this movie at all costs!

 

[Vegas]

Actually, it's unethical to make a movie that is pure garbage.
Sorry to those who liked it but I could NOT find one redeeming feature of that movie. It is not that I am a Christian bashing it because of it's heresy

I liked it. I think it was better to have read the book first. Not one redeeming feature? How about the tour of Paris? How about the cryptic codes? How about the truth about The Roman Catholic Church manipulating the growth and direction of the early church? Had you ever heard the legends of Joseph of Arimathea in England? Haven't you been suspicious of the "icons" of the chruches across Europe?(Did you know there were so many "pieces" of the cross throughout Europe that if they were reassembled it coud make more than a dozen crosses?)

What is the heresy again? Don't tell me what against the Church teachings, but what is contrary to something in The Bible...

 

[Zaac]

Same reason that you have to believe that Muhammed, Joseph Smith, Manni, Zoroaster, and every other prophet is incorrect.

That's not the question that was asked. I know full well why I believe what I do. I just keep wondering why nonChristians tell us we can't know truth, thus saying they can, yet turn around and get upset when we say we have the truth and they don't.

The Christians burned all of the documents that would reveal the Truth.

Prove me wrong

Rather peculiar that somehow you KNOW that Christians burned all those documents. Were you there? Is there a written history saying that Christians burned all those documents? Why didn't the Christians burn the documents that said they burned the other documents?

Simple. It's due to the nature of faith. You use it, I don't. Faith gives belief, not knowledge.

You very simply didn't answer the question.

Oh please, don't embarass yourself.

Don't worry. I don't embarass very easily.

So there are bad sprits out there.

Of course, you only have some ancient writings. There's every reason to believe that the Bible was inspired by evil spirits, making up their own tests for their own evil leader, Jesus Christ.

Now, if you're right and you could actually test it, like this scripture says, then you'd be on to something. Maybe you should drink poison and see if you live, like the bible says.

Second thought, better not.

But you've only got your opinion that there are not so why are you right?

If you gain any knowledge from the holy spirit, please share it. You're bluffing.

God's time given to me is too valuable for me to waste it bluffing.

Nope. Read again. You're the faith person, remember?

I read it again. Nothing changed.

 

[Adriac]

That's not the question that was asked. I know full well why I believe what I do. I just keep wondering why nonChristians tell us we can't know truth, thus saying they can, yet turn around and get upset when we say we have the truth and they don't.

They decidedly do not say this.

 

[Zaac]

I'm sorry, but your rationale doesn't make sense. You keep asserting that God is the word the truth etc. etc. It's not fact. It's faith and belief.

It may not make sense to YOU and YOUR ratinale. But as a Christian, I know enough about an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipressant God to know that He doesn't need my beleif to be Who He is.

And I didn't say that God is the truth, the way, etc. HE SAYS it.

My belief in Christ doesn't make it the absolute truth since that is what religion is all about. Faith in somethign whch can't be proven.

I never said it did. In fact, I said just the opposite. God doesn't need our belief for His truth to be truth.

And as far as the Bible is concerned, well, I believe a lot of it is not God inspired because if it is then there wouldn't be so much conflicting accounts on the essence of God. One minute, he's compassionate and loving the other, he orders the wholesale slaughetr and rape of the Midianites.

And I reply that your belief that a lot of the Bible is not inspired of God means nothing when He says ALL Scripture is God-breathed. ray

There is no conflict in God's Word. There is simply the nonunderstanding conflict of a finite human mind that would rather depend on itself for attempting to understand the things of God instead of leaning on God for HIS as He directs.

Or this order for the killing of men and raping the women and forced sexual servitude from Judges 21.

So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.
The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the Lord had left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked, "How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God's curse."

Then they thought of the annual festival of the Lord held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, 'Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn't find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'" So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes.


Killing every first born in Egypt?

The book of Joshua? More killing.

Most of the people killed in the old testament were for the most part blameless except they were not Israelites being members of another tribe.

This is why I believe it was written for an audience by war hungry men and did not come from God. What then suddenly God says - Oh I made mistakes so I'll set everything right now in the New Testament???

And that's your absolute truth? A bunch of stories which have no factual basis in itself but only begs belief.

If you are a Christian, stand on God's Word. And God's Word tells you that He cannot tell a lie. (Hebrews 6:18) A contradictory statement, by its nature, cannot be truthful.
Given that the Bible has successfully weathered and withstood centuries old attacks against it’s credibility, and that all purported contradictions have been reasonably explained time and again, is it not more likely that faulty interpretations and contradictions keep resulting from the contradicting minds of men?

Peter affirmed that “. . .we did not follow cunningly devised fables. . .” and “. . .knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit” (2 Peter 1:16a; 20-21).

The day will come when all will stand in judgment. And I can't help but think that there are gonna be more than a few people there who have said that they are Christians out of one side of their mouth while out the other side saying that inspired Scripture is not God's Word.

You cannot serve two masters. Either His Word is accepted as His Word because He says it is, or you look to ensnarl the unbeliever in the chaotic thought that it is not possible to know absolute truth, and thus leeaving it up to them to decide on their own truth. A very dangerous thing, and it does not honor Jesus Christ to sow such discord.

 

[michabo]

That's not the question that was asked. I know full well why I believe what I do. I just keep wondering why nonChristians tell us we can't know truth, thus saying they can, yet turn around and get upset when we say we have the truth and they don't.

I don't know "the truth", whatever that might be. I've just said (and am saying again) that faith can not lead you to truth, for the simple reason that, should you happen to believe something which happens to be true, you will never know it.

You have no way to tell if your beliefs are true or not. That's why you must rely on faith.

Rather peculiar that somehow you KNOW that Christians burned all those documents.

Oh, I know. After all, I have faith.

See, if the arguments Christians use to validate their own beliefs are permissible, then we can validate any belief including the DaVinci Code. Missing documents, oral histories, you name it.

Don't worry. I don't embarass very easily.

Believing that a centuries old, commonly known theorem should disprove evolution should be embarassing, even to you.

But you've only got your opinion that there are not so why are you right?

*sigh*

Do you really not get it?

I'm just showing that your arguments can be used to defend any position at all, including the positions you are attacking! I mean, c'mon.

 

[Zaac]

They decidedly do not say this.

They decidely do. If you're gonna tell me that I don't have the truth, you can't say it unless you're sure I don't.

If you tell me that I cannot know the truth, you have summarily told me that you can otherwise your statement is a lie.

 

[Vegas]

Oh, I know. After all, I have faith.

See, if the arguments Christians use to validate their own beliefs are permissible, then we can validate any belief including the DaVinci Code. Missing documents, oral histories, you name it.

UNFORTUNATELY, you can not use the faith argument because you have none. It is does not negate its use by someone who has faith. (If you and I are in a fight and I have a gun and you have only your fists... you can not shoot me, and but I can still beat you with my fists.)