The Da Vinci Code

[Byelotsar]

I just thought I'd toss in the fact that, during the Crusades (not Christianity's proudest hour, but also not the point), Christians were encouraged by the Church to read the Quran so that they could better proselytize to the Muslims. And, you know, it actually worked. Some Muslims converted.

By this logic, it seems to me that informing oneself about The DaVinci Code (and how better to do so than by reading it or watching it?) is hardly some sort of evil, as, at the very least, it allows one to argue against those who feel it is true - and thereby honor the God through knowledge and wisdom whom you would honor through ignorance.

 

[Zaac]

The bible is just a book. We know next to nothing about Jesus. We don't actually have any evidence that Jesus ever existed in the first place. So the DaVinci code is just a likely to be true as any of the gospel stories, or any of the non-cannonical gospels for that matter.

Perhaps to non Christians it is just a book. To the Christian, this Book embodies the very truth of Jesus Christ as the whole thing gives testimony to Him and His character. It is God inspired and thus the source of His revealed truth by which all other things can be tested. It is indeed more than just a book.

But should we expect nonChristians to feel otherwise? Nope.

The DaVinci code is definately not "definately not true" It just doesn't agree with your faith.

I won't go back and forth with ya over this, but truth is not subjective. It is what it is whether or not somebody believes it. Christians are not here to convince nonChristians that God's Word is truth. It is what It is.

The DaVinci Code doesn't have to agree with Christian faith. It disagrees with the very Word of God.

But again, this isn't something about which the nonChristian would make that big a deal about since truth is relative to a lot of them.

 

[michabo]

To the Christian, this Book embodies the very truth of Jesus Christ as the whole thing gives testimony to Him and His character.

That's a faith thing, right? Which means that it really is just another book. We can place our faith into anything. You have chose this book, others have chosen other. I know people that have placed their faith in books which say that aliens genetically engineered Jesus, another person that believes that lizards have taken over the US government.

Seriously.

I'm sure you'd think these were just another book, but they reveal the truth of blah blah. Whether you place faith in a book doesn't mean that it isn't a book.

The DaVinci Code doesn't have to agree with Christian faith. It disagrees with the very Word of God.

You have no way of knowing that. You believe it on faith, with no evidence. There's just as much a chance that the DaVinci code is correct, making it the Very History of God.

If someone says that they believe that the DaVinci code is Truth, what can you say to them? Can you tell me that there's any rational reason to think that you are right and they are wrong?

But again, this isn't something about which the nonChristian would make that big a deal about since truth is relative to a lot of them.

What can that possibly mean? You've just said that you believe the bible is the Word of God, and you presumably believe this is true yet you have no reason to believe this is true instead of, say, the Quaran is the Word of God. That says to me that you have convinced yourself that "truth" is malleable. (Or rather, that you can redefine truth.)

Me, I don't buy that. Something is true or isn't. No room for subjectivity.

How can you have faith and still preserve objectivity?

 

[crumbs2000]

I honestly don't think ya'll have given the devil enough credit. He's looking for people to devour. And there are countless millions looking for something to cling to. And there are countless millions who will cling to this lie just as they do to the lies told by other flase teachers and religions.

You can't discern between fact and fiction if you're not standing in God's inerrant truth. Unless you're accepting God's Word as truth, you have nothing by which to discern the truth.

And I think you may be referring to the faith of immature Christians(correct me if I'm wrong). I'm refrring to people who do not know Christ and who will be led to trust in a christ that ain't Christ at all because of the lies of this book/movie.

What is God's inerrant truth? Are you talking about the bible?
So you are saying that intelligent people cannot discern fact from fiction and truth from fallacy because they didn't accept God's truth?

So you are saying that the world has only progressed because of the truths that christians have held throughout the ages? Like burning witches and torturing people and keeping slaves?

Truth from a book (bible) written by fallible human beings not unlike Dan Brown himself? Unless the bible dropped from the heavens and was penned by God himself, not compiled by a group of people and said 'oh yeah, let's put that book in there...take that one out cause it's not compatible with all the other stories...let's shoehorn it all in!' , then it's not fact at all. Just because you have faith in it doesn't make it the truth.

We can all learn from one another. Just because others don't believe in your God, you are not better than them. Sorry that's how you come across.

Enough of the Word of God like it's the absolute truth. The word of God didn't drop out of the sky and handed to the people as the bible.

It's better to qualify it like: "I believe it is the word of God" as that is what you have faith. It is NOT truth because you cannot prove it as fact.

 

[crumbs2000]

Perhaps to non Christians it is just a book. To the Christian, this Book embodies the very truth of Jesus Christ as the whole thing gives testimony to Him and His character. It is God inspired and thus the source of His revealed truth by which all other things can be tested. It is indeed more than just a book.

But should we expect nonChristians to feel otherwise? Nope.




I won't go back and forth with ya over this, but truth is not subjective. It is what it is whether or not somebody believes it. Christians are not here to convince nonChristians that God's Word is truth. It is what It is.

The DaVinci Code doesn't have to agree with Christian faith. It disagrees with the very Word of God.

But again, this isn't something about which the nonChristian would make that big a deal about since truth is relative to a lot of them.

Have you actually read the first Genesis/Exodus/Leviticus?

I won't argue this here, but its is so full of incest/rape/and condones slavery. In later books God orders the killing of thousands unborn babies??? What? In other passages he says that unborn children are sinless and should not be killed? The bible is full of stories.... that's all it is stories.

While I may believe the essence of Christ and his resurrection, that's all I can get from the bible. The essence because as I said the whole thing does not make sense when you examine it closely.

Don't even start with the lineage of Jesus as predicted by the prophets? Do you want to tell me about that? That in itself has so many things not right about it.

If you belive it (the bible) to be fact and the word of God, then good for you. But don't start telling other people it IS the definite TRUTH because it's NOT when it's written by human beings who are sinful (according to the bible) and people as we know, make so many errors and others will have written it with their own bias. It's only human, to expect them to be divine is just so wrong......

And who compiled the bible again? One more time.........? Did the angels put it together? no..... then who did???

 

[Krysia]

It would never shake my faith. My faith is unwavering.

I. I agree with you. I enjoy The Ten Commandments and Ben-Hur (love the chariot scene), however my faith is unwavering and will not be shaken by a couple of movies.

II. I always find it refreshing when I read threads like these. It's reassuring when other people can relate to Hollywood fostering inaccurate ideas about one's religion/beliefs/practices (not that I would wish this experience on anyone). Hell, pop culture's been doing it to witches for years. Disney's been a big instigator of this, but I'll still watch the movies, because that's what they are - movies. People who can't tell the difference between fact and a work of fiction shouldn't be watching movies or reading fictional books in the first place (they'd probably end up in an asylum spouting off about the second coming of Jabba the Hut and how they have to lose weight so they can fit into a gold bikini...) But I digress.

III. I can relate to the anger & sorrow one can feel by having their religion inaccurately portrayed in a detrimental way. However, I've found anger to be useless. Be secure in your faith and set the record straight if and when you are able.

IV. If you're still interested in the Da Vinci Code (as entertainment - it is a work of fiction after all) I'd recommend reading the book - it's much better than the movie.

V. I agree with what other people have posted before me. If a work of fiction is enough to cause your faith to waver or give you doubts, the problem is not with the movie/book/etc., it's with the strength of your faith.

Blessed Be,
Krysia )O(

 

[Zaac]

That's a faith thing, right? Which means that it really is just another book. We can place our faith into anything. You have chose this book, others have chosen other. I know people that have placed their faith in books which say that aliens genetically engineered Jesus, another person that believes that lizards have taken over the US government.

I didn't choose a book. Jesus Christ chose me. Please don't misinterpret what I'm saying here. The Bible IS God's Word. But the Christian's faith is not in the Bible, but in Jesus Christ who is the very Living Word depicted by the words of the Bible. The Bible is a revealing of Jesus Christ from start to finish.

We are not to place our faith in a book anymore than we are to worship a shoe.

Seriously.

I'm sure you'd think these were just another book, but they reveal the truth of blah blah. Whether you place faith in a book doesn't mean that it isn't a book.

Already addressed.

You have no way of knowing that. You believe it on faith, with no evidence. There's just as much a chance that the DaVinci code is correct, making it the Very History of God.

And likewise, you have no way of knowing what I know.

Just remember that no one is trying to convince you or any nonBeliever that God's Word is God's Word and that the DaVinci Code is a lie. The truth is what God says it is, and He has already said.

If someone says that they believe that the DaVinci code is Truth, what can you say to them?

I would ask exactly what about the DaVinci Code do you think to be true.

Can you tell me that there's any rational reason to think that you are right and they are wrong?

I'm not so vain as to think that what I say means a hill of beans. I'm a deliverer of the truth of Jesus Christ. He is right, not me.

But let me ask you this. Why do you suppose that the truth is unattainable when it comes to issues of faith? In your insistence that I cannot know, you have dogmatically presented that you have the truth on this issue of faith. Why do you by default present yourself as having the truth about the very thing you say I have no way of knowing?

What can that possibly mean? You've just said that you believe the bible is the Word of God, and you presumably believe this is true yet you have no reason to believe this is true instead of, say, the Quaran is the Word of God. That says to me that you have convinced yourself that "truth" is malleable. (Or rather, that you can redefine truth.)

Me, I don't buy that. Something is true or isn't. No room for subjectivity.

How can you have faith and still preserve objectivity?

You mind if I answer that instead of you answering as though your words are mine?

Michabo, the Bible IS the Word of God. What I believe is meaningless. I don't have to believe that it is the Word of God for it to be. God is sovereign. He doesn't need my belief or the belief of any Christian for His Word to be what He says it is.

I don't presumably believe it to be true. It iS true.

I expect nonChristians to disagree with this because if you don't accept an unchanging Jesus Christ who is the endowment of truth, then your truth is relative.

 

[ImmortalTechnique]

i don't think its unethical. i saw the passion of the christ, and watched it as the work of fiction it was

 

[OdwinOddball]

Michabo, the Bible IS the Word of God. What I believe is meaningless. I don't have to believe that it is the Word of God for it to be. God is sovereign. He doesn't need my belief or the belief of any Christian for His Word to be what He says it is.

All of the above are beliefs. They requrie faith before they can be considered true, as their is no evidence that any of them are true.

The Bible DOES require you to believe for it to be the word of god. Thats pretty much the point.

 

[michabo]

The Bible IS God's Word.

So you keep saying. But you don't have anything beyond faith to substantiate this belief. You can put the whole sentence in caps, it won't change the fact that you have no way of knowing if it really is God's word or not.

I would ask exactly what about the DaVinci Code do you think to be true.

I said many times that I don't think the DaVinci Code is true. What I said is that the DaVinci code is as true as the vanilla Christian faith. There is as much reason to believe Jesus lived and fathered children than to believe Jesus died and was bodily resurrected. Well, as we know for certain that many people father children and no evidence that people have ever been resurrected, I'd say that the DaVinci Code's case is much stronger

But let me ask you this. Why do you suppose that the truth is unattainable when it comes to issues of faith?

You might be lucky and stumble onto some truth, but you'll never know which aspect of your faith is true or why. The simple requirements for knowledge are the ability to tell the difference between a statement and it's negation. For example, if I say that rocks fall towards the centre of the earth, you know what this means, and you can tell when a rock behaves differently. With that, we can run tests, gain confidence, etc.

If I said that god spoke to me, no one (not even me!) has any way to differentiate god speaking to me from, well, god not talking to me. If I said that god wanted a child to live, we can't tell if I am wrong. If I said that god is 'spirit', no one can tell if I am right or wrong, because no one knows what 'spirit' is. If I say that Jesus is with me, no one (not even me) can tell the difference between Jesus being with me and not being with me.

When you take things on faith, you lack knowledge because none of your beliefs have been tested (can be tested?) and so you have no way of knowing what level of confidence you should have in your belief. When your faith involves untestable things as a part of the faith, then you lack even the ability to know what a statement means, let alone whether it is true or not!

Why do you by default present yourself as having the truth about the very thing you say I have no way of knowing?

It's a simple matter: when you say the Bible IS God's Word, you can't tell me how to tell the bible from any other book which someone claims is God's Word. No one can.

I don't have to believe that it is the Word of God for it to be.

If the bible were God's Word, then yes, your belief would be irrelevant. But you don't know if it is God's Word (or even if God exists) and all you have is your belief that God exists, and the Bible is God's Word.

That belief, no matter how strong, doesn't make it so.

I expect nonChristians to disagree with this because if you don't accept an unchanging Jesus Christ who is the endowment of truth, then your truth is relative.

No such thing as relative truth. There are subjective evaluations like "I like chocolate", but that's it. Your belief on issues of theology doesn't change this aspect of reality. Sorry.

 

[Zaac]

All of the above are beliefs. They requrie faith before they can be considered true, as their is no evidence that any of them are true.

The Bible DOES require you to believe for it to be the word of god. Thats pretty much the point.

Well you know. I'm not one to beat a dead horse. I'll just say that a God Who has always been didn't wait on me or anyone else to have faith in order for Him to have a Word.

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. John 1:1

I didn't have faith back then cause neither I nor any other person was there. But note, the Word of God was still the Word of God without anyone around to have faith.

But unless you're a Christian, that's not gonna make any sense to ya.

 

[Zaac]

So you keep saying. But you don't have anything beyond faith to substantiate this belief. You can put the whole sentence in caps, it won't change the fact that you have no way of knowing if it really is God's word or not.

And I say again, you seem to be implying that you have something to substantiate your belief that it is not God's Word. What makes your truth correct if you're so sure the Christian truth is incorrect?

I said many times that I don't think the DaVinci Code is true. What I said is that the DaVinci code is as true as the vanilla Christian faith.

And yet again, you purport that you can identify truth. Why do you continue to insist that you know what truth is but the Christian has no way of knowing?

There is as much reason to believe Jesus lived and fathered children than to believe Jesus died and was bodily resurrected.

If you're not a Christian, sure there is. But even if you're not a Christian, the available information that is out there STILL points to the premise of the DaVinci Code being false. There are many more hundreds of historical documents to substantiate the life of Christ as written in His Holy Word than there are historical documents to give credence to the DaVinci Code lie.

Well, as we know for certain that many people father children and no evidence that people have ever been resurrected, I'd say that the DaVinci Code's case is much stronger

See the above response.

You might be lucky and stumble onto some truth, but you'll never know which aspect of your faith is true or why.

And yet again you speak as though you have the truth on this issue, but Christians all have a hard time getting the truth. Can you explain that to me?

The simple requirements for knowledge are the ability to tell the difference between a statement and it's negation. For example, if I say that rocks fall towards the centre of the earth, you know what this means, and you can tell when a rock behaves differently. With that, we can run tests, gain confidence, etc.

So because you can run some tests, and the outcome is the same the majority of the time, that gives you confidence that it is true?

How do you account for man's second law of thermodynamics as it relates to the evolutionary process?

If I said that god spoke to me, no one (not even me!) has any way to differentiate god speaking to me from, well, god not talking to me.

The Christian has a way. It's in the Bible. 1Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world. 1 John 4:1-3

If I said that god wanted a child to live, we can't tell if I am wrong. If I said that god is 'spirit', no one can tell if I am right or wrong, because no one knows what 'spirit' is. If I say that Jesus is with me, no one (not even me) can tell the difference between Jesus being with me and not being with me.

But if you're not a Christian and you're not endowed with the power of the Holy Spirit, how do you know what truth the Holy Spirit is capable of delivering to the Christian?

You have established your own truth as absolute, but continue to deny the possibility that Christendom is capable of having truth.

When you take things on faith, you lack knowledge because none of your beliefs have been tested (can be tested?) and so you have no way of knowing what level of confidence you should have in your belief. When your faith involves untestable things as a part of the faith, then you lack even the ability to know what a statement means, let alone whether it is true or not!

And this is how a nonChristian should think. No surprise here either.

It's a simple matter: when you say the Bible IS God's Word, you can't tell me how to tell the bible from any other book which someone claims is God's Word. No one can.

But you confuse a Christian's purpose. We are not tasked by Christ to convince that His Word is His Word. And we are not endowed with the power that allows you to tell the Bible from any other book. That comes with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

If the bible were God's Word, then yes, your belief would be irrelevant. But you don't know if it is God's Word (or even if God exists) and all you have is your belief that God exists, and the Bible is God's Word.

I'm still stuck on how you continue to express that you have the truth on this matter, yet it is inconceivable to you that the way of Christ is the truth. Why was it so easy for you to get the truth, yet you act as though Christ and every Christian who has trusted in Him cannot possibly have the truth because it runs counter to what you think the truth is?

That belief, no matter how strong, doesn't make it so.

But your belief, no matter how strong, doesn't make it the truth either. So why should I accept your analysis?

I'm not trying to make you accept God's Word as His Word. He will do that if He chooses.

No such thing as relative truth. There are subjective evaluations like "I like chocolate", but that's it. Your belief on issues of theology doesn't change this aspect of reality. Sorry.

That statement is relative truth because it's true relative to what YOU want to believe.

 

[flicka]

..the Bible IS the Word of God. What I believe is meaningless. I don't have to believe that it is the Word of God for it to be. God is sovereign. He doesn't need my belief or the belief of any Christian for His Word to be what He says it is.

Technically speaking it is JESUS who is The Word, while the Bible is inspired words about God. Or at least that's how it's been presented to me.

 

[Mayflower1]

Here is the verse that speaks to me as being "Breathed out" by God Himself and not just inspired by:

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." II Timothy 3:16

This can be interpreted two different ways. One that it was actually inspired by God. My point of view though is from the Greek. Don't ask me to spell or type the Greek word, because I can't but go to google, and you will find the meaning of inspiration here is "breathed out," as in scripture being breathed out by God. If these words are breathed out by God's every being, we should obey it, especially when it says to flee from the world and walk in the light as HE is in the light.

 

[Byelotsar]

If these words are breathed out by God's every being, we should obey it, especially when it says to flee from the world and walk in the light as HE is in the light.

The problem with this logic is that you presuppose the accuracy of the Bible in determining the accuracy of the Bible. It's similar to me saying, "I never lie, and since I'm the one telling you I never lie, it must be true."

 

[Zaac]

The problem with this logic is that you presuppose the accuracy of the Bible in determining the accuracy of the Bible. It's similar to me saying, "I never lie, and since I'm the one telling you I never lie, it must be true."

And I will repeat something that nonChristians keep confusing. God has not told Christians to convince you that His Word is His Word, so why all of the quibbling over its accuracy if you're not a Christian?

If you're not a Christian, I'm more interested in sharing Christ with you than proving the accuracy of God's Word.

Accept Jesus Christ and you get your proof.

 

[Mayflower1]

Oh, so you are saying if it was written by man this would be a lie. I guess it is all the matter of interpretation of scripture. I choose to believe that the the Bible is the Word of God. By faith, every page is God's gift to me.

 

[Mayflower1]

Is agnostic not believing in God's word or is it another denomination?

 

[Byelotsar]

And I will repeat something that nonChristians keep confusing. God has not told Christians to convince you that His Word is His Word, so why all of the quibbling over its accuracy if you're not a Christian?

I'm not quibbling over the accuracy of your faith. That's your deal. Obviously I don't think it is correct (I'm not a Christian, after all, though I was raised Catholic), and I've made my choices. If I'm wrong, I'll pay the consequences. I'm down with that.

My argument was one of logic. I'd have the same objection if the Pope himself had done it - or if the staunchest atheist had as well. Defending faith with bad logic doesn't make the faith bad, just the logic.

 

[Byelotsar]

Oh, so you are saying if it was written by man this would be a lie. I guess it is all the matter of interpretation of scripture. I choose to believe that the the Bible is the Word of God. By faith, every page is God's gift to me.

No, I'm saying that you're committing a massive logical fallacy in your statement. That doesn't have the slightest bearing on your faith (or mine). The Bible could well be true, even if it were written by men. But to say that a thing is true because it tells you it is true isn't a logical argument. That's all I was saying.

Is agnostic not believing in God's word or is it another denomination?

Agnosticism is essentially a doctrine of saying that I don't know what's out there. I don't lack religion, I just don't ascribe to any defined religion (such as Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, etc.).