The Crusades -

[angelsfire84]

Forgive me, I don't mean to offend anyone on here, or any Christian at all for that matter, because apparently just saying the word "Crusade" brings offense and is, to say the least, a sensative subject...?

I'll be honest, I haven't yet gone out and researched any parts of what's called "The Crusade" because in reality, I want to find a good source, a respectable source so that I can learn about what happened during those times.

I don't really know a thing about the Crusades, other than, from what people tell me "The Christians killed many innocent people!" Yeah, I don't quite understand it, and their viewpoint is one of anger and hatred towards -Christianity- because of it...

What I want to ask is, what exactly is "The Crusades" about, and if anyone can provide me with some useful and reliable sources/information regarding this thing. I want to know the Truth about it and what happened during those times. Whenever I try to talk to someone who doesn't believe in Christ, the 1st thing they bring up is "The Crusades", and, if I don't know about it, how can I get my point across, without being knowledable on that aspect?

Any and all forms of help/information on this subject will be 10x appreciated. Thank you for not being angry/irritated with me on this subject, as it is not meant to bring about any of those feelings, I am just ernestly seeking knowledge about it.

~Angel

 

[joelhall]

first off - noone in their right mind should be offended.

its funny really. ask someone whos never studied something properly and they always answer with what i term 'general wisdom' - i.e. the one-liners most people 'know' about the world, history, etc.

saying 'christians just killed innocent people in the holy land' is an example of this. its like saying world war 2 happened cos german people are bad...

needless to say like all large events, its far more complicated than that.
people assume that if something is widely 'known' its true, therefore you will always find people that give these arguments forward, such as 'until the 1400s people thought the world was flat but columbus didnt...'

we course know this isnt quite true (ok its false), but these old things die slowly.

if youd like to read up on the crusades then really your best bet is the most unbiased source you can find, usually something used by academics. the following link should be helpful:

Top Picks in General Crusades History Books

like it says, 'the crusades are one of the most misunderstood aspects of medieval history, frequently used (and misused) in the propaganda of modern times.'

this is usually used by rac-relations people or to counter the growing uneasiness about islam, as well a by those who always seem to want to prove theyre not biased by defending the other side. needless to say it does mark out christianity in a bad light, who sem to be the new 'its ok to victimise' goup.

certainly though it was of course a war started by men for political reasons, not a commandment of religion, and of course both sides did horrific things to each other. this of course is the nature of war not worshipping god.

its widely known the crusades were a reaction to islamic armies in the region. of course this fact gets ommitted for propaganda reasons, so be wary of any muslim or christian websites purporting the 'truth' as it willen evitably be a one-sided view, as will lots of general reading books - they simply follow author opinion of either side.

if i could sum up the crusades for you (which isnt ideal to do, but should at least give you an idea), id say:

it was the result of clashing ideals coupled with politically-held pre-conceived notions of both parties against the living practices of the enemies, who both sought to convert the other to their own ideals for geo-political power struggles. the rise in islamic political belief among the lay-peoples of european nations threatened domestic stability in the nations, causing civilians and those former warriors to react in the way typical of the populace and time period in question, causing governments and religious leaders to give support or risk losing their support from thei subjects (again both sides) in order that they may restore order in the future, and it had an inevitable effect on previously-held and new treatise among various european and asian nations.

this wasnt a war caused initially by kingdoms or churches (see the wikipaedia article 'crusades', but was begun amongst populations before becoming a politically sanctioned event. to paint the muslims as innocents and the christians as aggressors is just as ill-conceived a notion as to say it was the christians as the mercy of islam.

the fact is this is what happens (even today) when opposing beliefs, whether political, religious, emotional, whatever, are allowed to meet unconditionally in closed areas with long-standing rigidly held practices and beliefs (such as we have seen with the rise of islamic terrorism, or have seen fr decades in northern ireland.

the result is - people break gods commandment and kill other people.

whether of course anyone thinks that events of hundreds of years ago are really a sound argument for any practice of religion today, or modern day struggles amongst differing sections of society however - this just shows people are led by anger and not doctrine of religion, nor any human characteristic we generally hold in esteem, such as compassion.

there is however one thing we should learn from the crusades. ever since then as now is proof that clashing ideals do not mix. hopefully politicians will one day work this out and seek out ways of harmoising us rather than simply offering punishment to those who dont get on. all the christians, muslims, jews, and many other faiths who faced certain death and/or torture for refusing to renounce their beliefs are proof that you cannot force belief away from people or onto them. which also goes for 'general wisdom'. this is the real legacy of the crusades, not propaganda against christianity, or the victim culture of muslims. people need to see that god is the all-powerful one, and it is not for us to force belief. people have free will to do that themselves. those who reject god or the teachings shall be judged for it, not given heaven for protecting the church, nor given virgins in paradise for killing in gods name.

such is the legacy of the crusades. until the killing and hatred disappears none will be blessed.

really everyone should learn the facts of the crusades not just the knowledge of tv or propagada.

besides, not sure why this is an argument against christianity. jesus never hacked someones head off in battle.

hope this is helpful.

god be with you.

 

[LondonMatt]

Its worth remembering that Crusades weren't soley aimed at Islam - there were Crusades in Southern France against the Cathars for example and in Eastern Europe against Lithuanian and Baltic pagans.

The Crusaders also disliked the Orthodox in the Eastern Empire almost as much as Islam and on one of the Crusades ended up sacking Constantinople in return for Venetian naval support.

They were actually a relatively minor series of events in Islamic history (the destruction of Baghdad, then the heart of the Islamic world, in the same period was a much more important event, arguably one Islamic civilisation never really recovered from) which became more of an issue in the 20th Century with the Muslim worlds (sometimes justified) resentment of Western power and actions.

There were also important socio-economic factors in Europe at that time which drove the crusades, the feudal system and primogeniture are often cited by historians as a major cause, the need for younger sons of the nobles and knightly classes to conquer lands for themselves.

Some horrific things were done by Christians on crusades (as they were by Muslims in their holy wars) there was little that was godly about them.

 

[MrPolo]

If you're looking for a simple book, I have heard good things about Crusades: The Illustrated History. God bless.

 

[angelsfire84]

So, what I want to ask then, if those self-proclaimed -Christians- did all these horrible acts and deeds during those times, are they really -Christians- ? Since, well, as far as my knowledge goes, those kinds of things are the opposite of what Christ said we should be doing? Otherwise, if we acknowledge them as such and/or the tile of being a -Christian- or -Christianity- is applied to those kinds of people who do these acts, aren't we just accepting it as a reality and a part of -Christianity-?

Far be it from me to tell everyone what is what and whose opinion is right, but this is just my view. If it is recorded in History as "Christianity Vs. The World" then it will forever be regarded as an EVIL that is part of -Christianity- itself and give people a reason to lash out at us even more than they already do.

This is just my own personal opinion... However, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR ALL THE INFORMATION ON THE CRUSADES! It's very much helpful to me! =)

~Angel

 

[GaryP]

To Understand the Crusades, Read Revelations 21, 22, I prefer to read it backwards,
starting in Rev 22:21 reading that verse forward, and then to Rev 22:20 and so on.
In Reverse, you will see a Jesus, coming in from the Back, you will be given a warning, with threats and you will offered the Fruit from the Tree of Life and a part in the Jeweled City, Jerusalem. Everyone wanted the Real Estate of the Jeweled City.
That's it plain and Simple. Location, Location, Location.

 

[GaryP]

Sort of like the Lost Gold City in the Americas, El Dorado,

 

[BigNorsk]

The Great Crusades were to protect the practice of indulgences and pilgrimages. Something quite serious with Rome in those days, since it got it's funding that way and had taught people those pilgramages and such were the way to get much if not all of your time in the fictional purgatory forgiven.

You may note for instance that the Crusades did not start when Muslims took over Jerusalem, they only happened when the pilgramages were shut down. That was what triggered the Crusades.

Interestingly, the Crusader themselves were granted an indulgence. In most cases I believe it was a complete forgiveness of time in purgatory.

While it should be noted that the Roman Church doesn't seem to have ever really taught that an indulgence was a forgiveness of sins, it was rather obviously taken that way by many people. It appears evident that at least some Crusaders believed they were free to commit any sin without concern.

The whole indulgence trade and relic trade and pilgramage trade figured in heavily into the Reformation as well as the Counter Reformation.

Marv

 

[DArceri]

The Crusades were an attempt to protect the POLITICAL POWER OF THE ROMAN PAPACY. Even Christians were murdered by the crusaders.

 

[Rebekah30]

Forgive me, I don't mean to offend anyone on here, or any Christian at all for that matter, because apparently just saying the word "Crusade" brings offense and is, to say the least, a sensative subject...?

I'll be honest, I haven't yet gone out and researched any parts of what's called "The Crusade" because in reality, I want to find a good source, a respectable source so that I can learn about what happened during those times.

I don't really know a thing about the Crusades, other than, from what people tell me "The Christians killed many innocent people!" Yeah, I don't quite understand it, and their viewpoint is one of anger and hatred towards -Christianity- because of it...

What I want to ask is, what exactly is "The Crusades" about, and if anyone can provide me with some useful and reliable sources/information regarding this thing. I want to know the Truth about it and what happened during those times. Whenever I try to talk to someone who doesn't believe in Christ, the 1st thing they bring up is "The Crusades", and, if I don't know about it, how can I get my point across, without being knowledable on that aspect?

Any and all forms of help/information on this subject will be 10x appreciated. Thank you for not being angry/irritated with me on this subject, as it is not meant to bring about any of those feelings, I am just ernestly seeking knowledge about it.

~Angel

You obviously have internet access. Research it yourself from a variety of sources. Lots of info on it online.

 

[jgarden]

There is a school of thought that the Catholic Church promoted the Crusades for the express purpose of ridding Europe of the militaries that were engaged in constant warfare.

Many nobles who died in the Crusades left no heirs, so their lands and manors reverted back to the Crown and the Church.

It is no coincidence that the Church reached its greatest power and influence in those years following the Crusades -because it helped fill in the power vacuum left by the nobles who never returned from Palestine.

 

[mindlight]

Its all too easy to judge events through the accepted norms of our own time.

However the first crusade led to the reconquest of Jerusalem and the death of those Jews and Muslims in the city who refused to accept Christ.

It refocused Christians away from the petty struggles between Christian princes and onto the grand mission of taking on the false religion of Islam which was then at the height of its powers.

After the crusades Islam grew steadily weaker while European Christendom surged forwards.

However the sack of Constantinople opened the doorway to the later Ottoman invasions and was counter productive from a Christian point of view.

 

[wlajoie74]

some good stuff here! Thanks!

 

[Fenstermacher]

"Real Christians" are often wrong about a great number of things and make horrible mistakes and do terrible things.

We're sinners.

 

[ExpressionsOfFaith]

Why should the word bring offense ?? As the expression goes "do not judge the past for it is a foreign country, and they do things differently there."

The Crusades were not only for political power as DArceri says (certainly at the top levels of Vatican decision making and strategy they were), but, they were also for many of the lower rank individual men and Knights involved, personal quests of piety, cleansing themselves and proving themselves to the Lord, and working for his Glory. Something that has so far in this thread been overlooked.

 

[armyman_83]

I think that “Crusades” is a pretty broad term, honestly. I have read many books about the Crusading Era and of the Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem. However, I focus mainly on the First Crusade—since it was the most successful. Like someone else said, there was a holy war against the Carthars, and then there was the La Reconquista in Spain (Christians against the Moors), then there were the holy wars against the pagans of Eastern Europe (The Teutonic Order taking prominence).

So “Crusade” is a broad term. I doubt that there is any book that is not biased either for or against the Christian perspective of the event, everyone is biased. I recommend older books on the subject, books before the 1950’s—19th century books are good too. Of course reading chronicles of the era themselves are also very informative, however, they are very biased—which is to be expected. Late 20th century and 21st century books tend to be sort of revisionist histories…but that is just me, not to say that there aren’t good history books written now of course. It’s just that lots of revisionist trash is out there.

“The Story of The Crusades 1097-1291” by Alfred Duggan is pretty good(I would say a GREAT overview of all the Near East Crusades), even if it’s a bit simple. Sir Steven Runciman’s History of the Crusades Volumes I, II, and III are pretty good, read the first one—however he is a bit pessimistic of the Crusades. “Crusading Warfare 1097-1193” by R.S. Smail is pretty interesting, but might be a bit daunting to someone who is uninformed of the subject, it’s still good. “The First Crusade And The Idea Of Crusading” by Jonathan Riley-Smith is another good read. “The Historie of the Holy Warre” By Tomas Fuller is a 17th century view of the Holy War (First Crusade). There are lots of other good books too.

Don’t trust Wikipedia, please. It’s very unreliable on such a controversial subject. If you have any specific questions please ask , either here or PM me. I mainly concentrate on the First Crusade, but when I go back to school I will study more fervently through the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th Crusades, among the other Holy Wars.

As a Christian and a soldier, studying the Holy Wars is very interesting to me. As it motivates me to do right, and it sets an example (both of how to act, and how not to in some cases!). I went to college after graduating high school early, and was going to become a history teacher. But I stopped my schooling and joined the army, I want to live a bit of history before I teach it! Being raised by a career soldier(and my darling mother of course!), my Father heavily influenced my militaristic life. People may think that I simply study the subject to justify my own existence, which is expectable. The Bible has countless warriors within the pages, countless have died within its words. But David was no murder, neither was Joshua, Samuel, Gideon, Judah Maccabeus, among countless others. Righteous warfare is openly in the Bible, and why should we not see it in history outside the Word of God?

Sure you have lots of men during the Crusades who went to just be rich, but most went to further their own personal walk with God. But evil men pollute everything, was not Judas an Apostle? Trust me, walking across Europe and facing perilous journeys, fearing hunger, thirst, heat, bow, blade, sickness and everything else was no small feat and surely zeal was the main sustenance to motivate most people. While wealth and honor surely played another motivating factor, it was not, in my opinion, the main goal of the first crusaders. The First Crusade was undoubtedly a miracle, in my opinion. Like others have said above, most people assume it was Christians murdering people in the name of God, merely for greed or lust of simply killing. This is simply a lack of learning in schools, or the force feeding of revisionist histories….Bah!