The Crucifixion Not Friday

[Saber Truth Tiger]

What does Exodus have to do with Leviticus?

It doesn't. The Exodus 16 page is the first one in the LXX that first mentions the Sabbath. All you have to do is to click on the page, press the CTRL and F key at the same time to bring up the window and then type G4521 into it and it will highlight the Sabbath in the text. There, you can see if it a plural or a singular. I've gone through the Torah in the LXX thus far using this method and all Sabbaths so far are in the plural, including Numbers 15:32. I am not a Greek scholar so I can only repeat what scholars say.

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

Is your point that Leviticus 23:15 is not plural in the LXX?

No.

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

I have edited my post # 283 above to show only the cases where THE SABBATH in the New Testament is rendered as a singular even though the Greek word is plural. The plural Sabbaths is also rendered as week eight times in the KJV but I do not address that here.

* 1. Matthew 12:1 At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath, and His disciples became hungry and began to pick the heads of grain and eat. DNP PLURAL

1. Matthew 12:10 And a man was there whose hand was withered. And they questioned Jesus, asking, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?”—so that they might accuse Him. DNP PLURAL
2. Matthew 12:11 And He said to them, “What man is there among you who has a sheep, and if it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will he not take hold of it and lift it out? DNP PLURAL
3. Matthew 12:12 How much more valuable then is a man than a sheep! So then, it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.” DNP PLURAL
4. Matthew 28:1 Now after the Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to look at the grave. GNP PLURAL
5. Mark 1:21 They *went into Capernaum; and immediately on the Sabbath He entered the synagogue and began to teach. DNP PLURAL
6. Mark 2:23* And it happened that He was passing through the grainfields on the Sabbath, and His disciples began to make their way along while picking the heads of grain. (-the) DNP PLURAL
7. Mark 2:24 The Pharisees were saying to Him, “Look, why are they doing what is not lawful on the Sabbath?” DNP PLURAL
8. Mark 3:2 They were watching Him to see if He would heal him on the Sabbath, so that they might accuse Him. DNP PLURAL
9. Mark 3:4 And He *said to them, “Is it lawful to do good or to do harm on the Sabbath, to save a life or to kill?” But they kept silent. DNP PLURAL
10. Luke 4:16 And He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up; and as was His custom, He entered the synagogue on the Sabbath, and stood up to read. GNP PLURAL
11. Luke 4:31 And He came down to Capernaum, a city of Galilee, and He was teaching them on the Sabbath; DNP PLURAL
12. Luke 6:2 But some of the Pharisees said, “Why do you do what is not lawful on the Sabbath?” DNP PLURAL
13. Acts 13:14 But going on from Perga, they arrived at Pisidian Antioch, and on the Sabbath day they went into the synagogue and sat down. GNP PLURAL
14. Acts 16:13 And on the Sabbath day we went outside the gate to a riverside, where we were supposing that there would be a place of prayer; and we sat down and began speaking to the women who had assembled. GNP PLURAL

.

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

I would like to add I am NOT a Greek scholar and cannot read Greek or write it for that matter so I must rely on others for what I believe. If Revelation Lad really wants to know WHY the plural Sabbath can refer to a single day he should contact Bill Mounce or someone like him that is a Greek scholar for his WHY question. Support

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

You should include those where the plural is week. Those are places which speak to the question.

I would love to address those at a different time. But like I say a lot (for emphasis) is I am not a Greek scholar and must use quotations from authorities that I believe do know. Later I will take up this in a different thread.

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

I am not going to address the plural sabbaths being used for week at this time. But, Revelation Lad asked about them, so I decided to share with the Christian Forums community the nine times week is used in the KJV New Testament.

SABBATHS (PLURAL) translated as week

Mark 16:9 and Luke 18:12 are singular, the others are plural. Literally “sabbaths”. So, seven times the KJV word for week comes from the plural sabbaths. So I will pick this up at a different time. I am not ready and I must re-study this topic before I am ready to discuss it.

1. Matthew 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.
2. Mark 16:2 And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.
3. Mark 16:9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils. (Singular)
4. Luke 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
5. Luke 24:1 Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.
6. John 20:1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.
7. John 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
8. Acts 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.
9. 1 Corinthians 16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

You're not a Greek scholar yet a main part of your argument is the claim the LXX scholars mistranslated. You're incapable of included weeks in your work up, but you have the expertise to pass judgement on the LXX...a judgement completely at odds with the likes Philo of Alexandria. Fascinating.

I know the LXX is wrong in their translation of Leviticus 23:11 because I can read English translations of the LXX and the Hebrew text and compare them both side by side. If anyone wants to see what I mean, invest in a English copy of the LXX and the English translation of the Hebrew. Begin with placing the LXX English translation on your left side and the English translation of the Hebrew on your right hand. For the LXX, Brenton's translation is best, and for the Hebrew into English translation i use the KJV.

Now, turn to Leviticus 23 for both of them and start reading the English translation and comparing it with the LXX as you go. Verse 3 mentions the weekly Sabbath in the KJV and the LXX is in agreement with the KJV in that point. Now, read verses 4-10 in the KJV and compare it with the LXX verses 4-10. So far, so good. Now, notice verse 11. In the KJV, it reads the "day after the Sabbath". Up to that point the only Sabbath mentioned in the text is the weekly Sabbath. Now, compare the LXX and you will see it reads something entirely different. Verse 11 says "on the morrow of the first day" which totally changes the timing of the Omer from the day after the weekly Sabbath to the day after the first day of Unleavened Bread which would move the waving of the Omer to Nisan 16 every year. For more details see page 5 on this thread and read post # 82 to see it demonstrated in greater detail. So, I am reading the translations of leading scholars, some, experts in the Hebrew into English and some experts in the Hebrew into Greek. They both cannot be right. There is a contradiction, and I don't need to be a scholar to know there is a contradiction between the two. However, when explaining whether Sabbaths can be translated into Sabbath or not, I need to defer to scholars like Bill Mounce, I have confidence in Bill Mounce, and I use him as an authority because I myself can't claim Sabbaths can be translated into Sabbath because I don't have the expertise to do so.

Philo of Alexandria followed the Pharisee reckoning of the Nisan 15 Sabbath so that is no surprise that he would hold to the LXX. A common error some people make is if they can find a scholar that agrees with them this proves they are right. This is a fallacy as there are two or more opinions on most issues and just quoting scholars doesn't settle the issue. That is why I urge Revelation Lad to consult Bill Mounce to hear another side to his belief that all plural Sabbaths should be translated as Sabbaths and only Sabbaths. If I am incorrect on this belief, I want Revelation Lad to tell me.

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

What was the translation philosophy? Apparently you assume it was word-for-word and when you find examples where it deviates from your expectation you judge them to be wrong.

OTOH, when English translators render passages to make the meaning clear, they're not mistranslations because they give the reader the clear meaning.

The Rabbis discuss how the Hebrew instructions on when to observe Firstfruits are problematic and subject to different interpretations. Yet you, who are no Greek scholar judge the LXX a mistranslation despite the fact it addresses the different interpretations in a manner which makes clear what you believe is correct. Fascinating.

The LXX and the Masoretic text on Leviticus 23:11 cannot both be true. I just leave it up to members of Christian Forums on this thread to examine the evidence and decide for themselves. I do not KNOW a lot of things regarding the plural Sabbaths, but I do BELIEVE that Bill Mounce is correct in his understanding of the plural Sabbaths. There is a difference between KNOWING and BELIEVING. I do not KNOW that the plural Sabbaths can mean a single Sabbath, but I know scholars who claim that, and I find it convincing. I BELIEVE them. I just don't KNOW that. I don't trust your scholarship either. I take anything you say with a grain of salt.

Contact Bill Mounce with your WHYs concerning the plural sabbaths. He is more qualified than I am or perhaps anyone on this forum. Listen to him and prayerfully consider what he says. I don't claim you should have to believe him, but just consider his expertise before making your next move. If you decide he is wrong, then hold to that. But I won't try to tell you I know that plural sabbaths can mean a single day, I can just offer my opinion. Mounce has an informed opinion. Contact him and let me know what he says.

The vast majority of English translations on Bible Gateway translate the Jewish word in Leviticus 23:11 as Sabbath. Just thought you would like to know. These translation committees are all well versed in Hebrew. There is one that translates the Hebrew Sabbath as Passover, but this is someone who obviously agrees with modern Judaism's view on the subject because all one has to do is to read the interlinear on Bible Hub to see the word there is the Hebrew 7676 which is the weekly Sabbath.

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

What was the translation philosophy? Apparently you assume it was word-for-word and when you find examples where it deviates from your expectation you judge them to be wrong.

OTOH, when English translators render passages to make the meaning clear, they're not mistranslations because they give the reader the clear meaning.

"the morrow after THE SABBATH" and "the morrow of the FIRST DAY" do not mean the translators are trying to make the meaning clearer, one is false and the other isn't. I believe the Bible, as originally written, is inspired by God. The original was in Hebrew. I prefer the Hebrew over the Septuagint any day. It is true many Christians used the Greek text because they couldn't read the original language, but I am sure there was always someone nearby that knew the Hebrew who could set them straight on which was the correct day of the Omer. The KJV has been beloved by Christians for over four centuries but there are translation errors in the translation. That doesn't diminish the importance of the KJV. The LXX may be a fine translation, but in the case of Leviticus 23:11 it is in error.

The Rabbis discuss how the Hebrew instructions on when to observe Firstfruits are problematic and subject to different interpretations. Yet you, who are no Greek scholar judge the LXX a mistranslation despite the fact it addresses the different interpretations in a manner which makes clear what you believe is correct. Fascinating.

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

I updated my list of the Greek word Sabbaths being translated as "week.

SABBATHS (PLURAL) translated as week

Mark 16:9 and Luke 18:12 are singular, the others are plural. Literally “sabbaths”. So, seven times the KJV word for week comes from the plural sabbaths.

1. Matthew 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.
2. Mark 16:2 And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.
3. Mark 16:9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils. (Singular)
4. Luke 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. (Singular)
5. Luke 24:1 Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.
6. John 20:1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.
7. John 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
8. Acts 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.
9. 1 Corinthians 16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
10. In the LXX, the Greek Jews translated Sabbath in Leviticus 23:15-16 as WEEK and WEEKS.

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

The purpose of a translation from the original language to another is to convey the idea, or in this case, the action required in the original language. There is disagreement among Jews as to how to interpret the Hebrew instructions. You trace the development of the disagreement to the exile. You recognize the existence of the disagreement before and during the Christian era, and it persists today. One group says Firstfruits should be fixed on Nisan 16; the other say it is fixed on Sunday during Unleavened Bread.

Those who argued for Sunday based their position on the instructions for Firstfruits. Those who argued for Nisan 16 based their position on the Feast of Weeks, which followed Firstfruits. Both positions supported their arguments using the Hebrew text.

Ignoring the question of how the Hebrew instructions are applied in a year when the weekly Sabbath falls on Nisan 14, you believe the correct understanding of the Hebrew is Firstfruits is to be observed on Sunday, which is how the LXX translators understood the Hebrdoew.

I actually don't know what Jews who follow their calendars do when Nisan 14 falls on a a Sabbath. I suppose they wait until the following Sunday. But I don't know that for a fact. When I was in the WCG, we kept the festivals, and I don't remember what happened when Nisan 14 fell on a Sabbath. It may not have ever fallen on a Saturday because we used' the current fixed Jewish calendar and certain holidays couldn't fall on certain days of the week. Under the current Jewish calendar, the Jews use postponements to make certain days impossible to fall on certain days and not on others. They do not use God's calendar I suppose but instead have created a calendar of their own where they can avoid problems with things like that. Rabbi Hillel the second is partially to blame for that. Jews have pre-determined leap years in their calendar that occur every third, sixth, eighth, 11th, 14th, 17th, and 19th years. Formerly, Nisan 1 would be the first month when the barley harvest was ready to harvest around the spring equinox.

BTW, I thought you had thrown in the towel on the Nisan 15 Sabbath issue but obviously you have not. In light of the evidence that I have presented that the plural Sabbaths can be translated as a single Sabbath, have you reconsidered your position on that issue? Do you plan to contact Bill Mounce?

By the way, you quote Leviticus 23:15 in the LXX and argue for the plural Sabbaths. However, in the entire Torah, wherever the word Sabbath or day of rest appears it is always in the plural, even in Number 15:32. It was a feature of the Greek in the Torah to translate all Sabbaths in the plural. Also, the Hebrew reads in the singular in Leviticus 23:15. I don't think you have a case.

The Torah was translated into Greek FIRST and over he next few centuries. the other books were gradually added. So, for a while the Greek speaking Jews understood all Sabbaths in those books were plural, even when a single date was meant

Bill Mounce on the plural Sabbaths: Sabbath(s) and Sunday (σάββατον)

Bill Mounce on the singular Sabbath in Luke 18:12: Can you have a “twice Sabbath” (Luke 18:12)?.

More on the different views of the plural Sabbaths at BHSE: Sabbath, Sabbaths or week? Matthew 28:1

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

Revelation Lad, I just wanted you know how some traditions that began to be taught when the Talmuds were written give false information. For example, Nisan 10 was claimed to already being a Sabbath BEFORE the children of Israel departed Egypt. This flies in the face of Exodus 16. Yet, there it is. The claim the Sabbath was already in existence before Israel left Egypt.

From Google AI:

The first Shabbat HaGadol, or the Great Sabbath, was celebrated by the Israelites in Egypt on Nisan 10 around 1456 BCE, five days before the Exodus.

The Sabbath is first mentioned in the Bible in the Genesis creation narrative, where God set aside the seventh day as a day of rest and made it holy. The Bible says that Jehovah rested from his creative labors on the seventh day and called it the Sabbath.

I am not debating this though. I posted it for your own information. I would like to stay on topic, but I just wanted to share it with you. It's like the false tradition that the giving of the Law was on Shavuot. The two are never tied together in the Hebrew Scriptures or the Greek New Testament. It was only after the Temple was destroyed that the rabbis declared that Shavuot and the giving of the Law happened on the same day.

Here are links that show the giving of the Law was not connected to Shavuot until after the destruction of the Temple:

Shavuot History

https://ancienttruthshidden.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/shavuot.pdf

Shavuot History: From the Bible to Temple Times | My Jewish Learning

Shavuot | Definition, Meaning, & Facts | Britannica

talmidimyeshua.org - Counting the Feast of Weeks

Shavuot: The Day of the Giving of the Torah? | Sefaria

Shavuot | Definition, Meaning, & Facts | Britannica

Shavuot through history: Do Jews today have it all wrong?

Shavuot: The Feast of Weeks (Shavuot through history: Do Jews today have it all wrong?)

Was the Law of Moses Given on Pentecost? A Tale of Two Occasions (Was the Law of Moses Given on Pentecost? A Tale of Two Occasions)

Again, I am not posting this to start a new debate, I just wanted to share something I know with you.

 

[Revelation Lad]

Revelation Lad, I just wanted you know how some traditions that began to be taught when the Talmuds were written give false information. For example, Nisan 10 was claimed to already being a Sabbath BEFORE the children of Israel departed Egypt. This flies in the face of Exodus 16. Yet, there it is. The claim the Sabbath was already in existence before Israel left Egypt.

From Google AI:

The first Shabbat HaGadol, or the Great Sabbath, was celebrated by the Israelites in Egypt on Nisan 10 around 1456 BCE, five days before the Exodus.

The Sabbath is first mentioned in the Bible in the Genesis creation narrative, where God set aside the seventh day as a day of rest and made it holy. The Bible says that Jehovah rested from his creative labors on the seventh day and called it the Sabbath.

I am not debating this though. I posted it for your own information. I would like to stay on topic, but I just wanted to share it with you. It's like the false tradition that the giving of the Law was on Shavuot. The two are never tied together in the Hebrew Scriptures or the Greek New Testament. It was only after the Temple was destroyed that the rabbis declared that Shavuot and the giving of the Law happened on the same day.

Here are links that show the giving of the Law was not connected to Shavuot until after the destruction of the Temple:

Shavuot History

https://ancienttruthshidden.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/shavuot.pdf

Shavuot History: From the Bible to Temple Times | My Jewish Learning

Shavuot | Definition, Meaning, & Facts | Britannica

talmidimyeshua.org - Counting the Feast of Weeks

Shavuot: The Day of the Giving of the Torah? | Sefaria

Shavuot | Definition, Meaning, & Facts | Britannica

Shavuot through history: Do Jews today have it all wrong?

Shavuot: The Feast of Weeks (Shavuot through history: Do Jews today have it all wrong?)

Was the Law of Moses Given on Pentecost? A Tale of Two Occasions (Was the Law of Moses Given on Pentecost? A Tale of Two Occasions)

Again, I am not posting this to start a new debate, I just wanted to share something I know with you.

AI has one obvious error. The seventh day is not a Sabbath. The Sabbath remembers the seventh day. Earliest observance would be the 14th day.

Depending on the number of days you include in a month, Nisan 10 was a Sabbath...or Nisan 15 was a Sabbath. This follows from the fact the 15th of the second month was a Sabbath.

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

I see we are still at loggerheads with the issue of the Nisan 15 Sabbath. The Jews, by the way, observed every seventh day, week by week, dating back to the time of Moses. There is no evidence they skipped a day, throwing off the count. There have been Sabbath keepers who have kept ever seventh day as a Sabbath. How does a whole nation that celebrates the Sabbath on the seventh day every week lose track of time? Maybe a few families would accidently forget which day was the Sabbath, but they would be reminded by their religious brothers and sisters, and they would begin keeping every seventh day again. The Jews have faithfully observed every seventh day dating back centuries.

However, this is not the subject of the debate, and I am not interested in a debate on this topic. I posted it for you to read and maybe learn something new, but I have no desire to debate it. There were no plural Sabbaths in Leviticus 23:15. See the Hebrew. Then, when you consider that every Sabbath or day of rest in the LXX Torah is used with the plural, your argument doesn't sound convincing to someone like me. I have no doubt that it is convincing to you but if you can't admit Nisan 15 was not a Sabbath in the Scriptures then we cannot make progress. I do not KNOW that plural Sabbaths can be a single Sabbath, but I believe it can, based on the information I have seen thus far. I would urge you to contact Bill Mounce and get his personal belief on the topic.

Support

For an Informed Love of God

www.billmounce.com

Consider Exodus 16:25 and 26 in the LXX where Sabbath is clearly in the singular but it is in the plural in the Greek. The plural Greek therefore can refer to a single day or more than one. If you want to convince me to adopt your interpretation of Leviticus 23:15 you must provide abundant evidence that the word Sabbath in Leviticus 23:15 must be plural in meaning.

Exodus 16 in the LXX:

25 And Moses said, Eat to-day, for to-day is a sabbath to the Lord: shall not be found in the plain.
26 Six days ye shall gather it, and on the seventh day is a sabbath, for there shall be none on that .

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

Ah yes. There is no Sabbaths in Leviticus 23:15...unless you are a Gentile Christian, or Rabbi Yoḥanan ben Zakkai, or anyone in Jerusalem after 50 AD, or Josephus, or almost every Jew since the Temple was destroyed.

There is a Sabbath in Leviticus 23:15 in the LXX. A plural Sabbath at that, but that does not mean it is plural because the plural was often used for the singular. The 1917 JPS Tanakh does not mention a plural Sabbath in Leviticus 23:15 though.

JPS 1917 Tanach Leviticus 23:15-16
15And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the day of rest, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the waving; seven weeks shall there be complete; 16even unto the morrow after the seventh week shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall present a new meal-offering unto the LORD.

JPS 1985 Tanach Leviticus 23:15-16

23:15 And from the day on which you bring the sheaf of elevation offering -- the day after the sabbath -- you shall count off seven weeks. They must be complete: 23:16 you must count until the day after the seventh week -- fifty days; then you shall bring an offering of new grain to the LORD.​

And as proof we only need to ask Bill Mounce. Fascinating.

Mounce is not the end all of biblical scholarship, but he IS a Greek scholar who can answer your questions about why the plural Sabbaths can be used for a singular day and even for week. I was asking YOU ask him because of your constant WHY'S. I am not qualified to answer your WHY'S, but he is. That doesn't mean he shouldn't be asked. I want you to go further and ask other scholars who believe the plural sabbaths can mean a single day. I can't do all your homework for you, if you are truly interested with your WHY'S then you should shoulder some of the efforts to seek out the answers to your questions from those who KNOW and not someone who merely BELIEVES. Mounce just happens to be my favorite. You can contact someone else if you want. But I recommend Bill Mounce.

How sad to think how many people were deceived by the Greek text until it was explained in English...2,000 years after. How foolish they were to read Sabbaths in the Greek language and fail to understand it meant Sabbath. All the while observing Nisan 15 as the Sabbath. Tragic.

This is not a 21st century phenomenon or a 20th century phenomenon. This information has been available for centuries. Sabbath can mean other things than Sabbath. I trust the consensus of Greek scholarship over your shoddy scholarship any day. The scholars I follow have written their words in peer reviewed journals and books and it has withstood the test of time. But all I get from you is the same ole, same ole and you argue like an amateur. You totally ignored my comments on the LXX rendition of Exodus 16:23, 25, 26 where the plural Sabbaths refer to a single day. Not a chirp about it. All you can do is to resort to sarcasm and dodge and evade.

Here is a link where you can search the Septuagint and which verses are plural and which are not,

Septuagint OT and Westcott-Hort NT - εν αρχη εποιησεν ο θεος τον ουρανον και την γην

From Google AI:

To find a comprehensive list of all the times the word "Sabbath" (in Greek, "Sabbaton") appears in the Septuagint, you would need to consult a specialized Bible concordance or a digital Bible software that allows you to search specifically for the Greek word "σάββατον" (Sabbaton) throughout the Septuagint text; this will show you every instance where the word is used in the Greek translation of the Old Testament.

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

You completely miss the point. When someone reads Sabbaths and observes Firstfruits on Sunday they will know the Sabbaths were Nisan 15 and Saturday. The idea one would read plural and observe the holiday based on the plural but understand the plural was singular is ridiculous. You as a reader may make that choice, but no one living in Gospel times would.

I will respond later. For now, I am providing my source for the claim that Exodus 16:23, 25, and 26 the Sabbath is plural in the text but singular in meaning. When you see the Exodus 16 LXX page press CTRL and F at the same time. A little window will open. Type G4521 into that window and the Greek word for Sabbath will be highlighted. You will be able to see if the word is plural or not. Just examine the evidence. That's all I ask. If this later turns out to be false, I will render my apologies. But for now, this is what I have.

Exodus 16 απηραν δε εξ αιλιμ και ηλθοσαν πασα συναγωγη υιων ισραηλ εις την ερημον σιν ο εστιν ανα μεσον αιλιμ και ανα μεσον σινα τη δε πεντεκαιδεκατη ημερα τω μηνι τω δευτερω εξεληλυθοτων αυτων εκ γης αιγυπτου

You will see it is a Noun, followed by NPN which means:

Part of Speech: Noun
Case: Nominative
Number: Plural
Gender: Neuter

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

REVELATION LAD writes:
You completely miss the point. When someone reads Sabbaths and observes Firstfruits on Sunday they will know the Sabbaths were Nisan 15 and Saturday.

Saber Truth Tiger replies:
No, they will BELIEVE the Sabbaths were Nisan 15 and Saturday. They will not KNOW it because it isn’t true.

REVELATION LAD writes:
The idea one would read plural and observe the holiday based on the plural but understand the plural was singular is ridiculous.

SABER TRUTH TIGER replies:
No, it isn’t ridiculous. The cold hard truth is in the Torah at least, when the Sabbath was grammatically plural it was used as a singular. Those Jews who lived at the time of the writing of the Septuagint would understand.

REVELATION LAD writes:
You as a reader may make that choice, but no one living in Gospel times would.

SABER TRUTH TIGER replies:
No one? Prove it. Prove to me that NO ONE living in Gospel times would not understand the plural as a singular in Gospel times, much less at the time of the writing of the Septuagint. When modern Americans hear the word “deer” they may think of a plural or singular deer. When the Torah was translated Greek speaking Jews would understand, by context, whether it was one or more than one.

REVELATION LAD
When someone observes Firstfruits on Nisan they will know Nisan 15 was the Sabbath. You can say they were wrong but your opinion doesn't not erase their actions and reason for doing so.

SABER TRUTH TIGER
WHO will KNOW Nisan 15 was the Sabbath? The Jews? Just who, for goodness's sake! I can indeed say they were wrong because they were, but it is also true my opinion doesn’t erase *their* reason for doing so, it is an erroneous reason but still a reason.

REVELATION LAD
You are imposing an anachronism based on your opinion which is contrary to what people did and why they did it.

SABER TRUTH TIGER
My opinion is contrary to what people did and still do today in modern mainstream Judaism. That doesn’t mean my opinion on Nisan 15 is erroneous.

REVELATION LAD
Your intellectual interpretation, however correct, does not allow you to erase and rewrite history

SABER TRUTH TIGER
My interpretation will never erase history because I believe some did believe Nisan 15 was a Sabbath and Nisan 16 was the waving of the Omer. There were also some who believed Nisan 15 was a Sabbath and the day after the weekly Sabbath was the waving of the Omer. In my lifetime I spent ten years in a Church (cult) that taught Nisan 15 was the Sabbath, but they counted the seven Sabbath plus one from Sunday after the Seder.

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

SABER TRUTH TIGER
My interpretation will never erase history because I believe some did believe Nisan 15 was a Sabbath and Nisan 16 was the waving of the Omer. There were also some who believed Nisan 15 was a Sabbath and the day after the weekly Sabbath was the waving of the Omer. In my lifetime I spent ten years in a Church (cult) that taught Nisan 15 was the Sabbath, but they counted the seven Sabbath plus one from Sunday after the Seder.

Response
When you say some, does that include the translators of the Septuagint?

I believe it does. Have you examined my evidence that in Exodus 16:23, 25, 26 and 20:10 that the plural Sabbath in the Greek refers to a single Sabbath? It's in post # 315. It's important to note the Pentateuch was translated into Greek at first, and that was in the third century BCE, the fourth century BCE and over the next two centuries the rest of the Hebrew Bible and Apocrypha were translated into Greek, independently of each other. For years the Torah was the Bible the Greek speaking Jews used. And, if you check my evidence, you will see that they used the plural Sabbaths for a singular Sabbath three times in Exodus 16 alone. In any case, you now have a webpage you can use anytime you want to know what a certain noun in the LXX was plural or singular.

For example, here is the Septuagint page for Numbers 15:32 where a plural Sabbath has a singular meaning. It is easy to find the Greek word for Sabbath and you will see it is grammatically plural. Hit CTRL and F at the same time, then enter G4521 into the window and the Greek word for Sabbath will be highlighted.

Numbers 15:32 και ησαν οι υιοι ισραηλ εν τη ερημω και ευρον ανδρα συλλεγοντα ξυλα τη ημερα των σαββατων

From Google AI:

Is the Septuagint reliable?

The Septuagint has been rejected as scriptural by mainstream Rabbinic Judaism for a couple of reasons. First, the Septuagint differs from the Hebrew source texts in many cases (particularly in the Book of Job). Second, the translations appear at times to demonstrate an ignorance of Hebrew idiomatic usage.

From Google AI

The Septuagint was translated over a period of centuries, with the Pentateuch being translated in the 3rd century BCE and other books translated over the next two to three centuries. The translation process was divided into several stages, and the quality and style of the translators varied considerably from book to book.

The name "Septuagint" comes from the Latin word septuaginta, which means "70". The name is based on the legend that 72 translators, 6 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel, worked independently to translate the whole and ultimately produced identical versions. However, this story is widely viewed as implausible today.

The Septuagint was a significant translation because it allowed new people access to the Biblical text. It was the first translation of the Hebrew Bible into any other language.

SABER TRUTH TIGER

If the above is true, the Greek Pentateuch was written in the third century CE, long before the rest of the Hebrew Bible was translated into Greek. The Pentateuch was therefore the only Bible the Greek speaking Jews could use for a long while. This means I was in error when I claimed 72 translators translated the LXX earlier in this thread.

 

[Revelation Lad]

I believe it does. Have you examined my evidence that in Exodus 16:23, 25, 26 and 20:10 that the plural Sabbath in the Greek refers to a single Sabbath? It's in post # 315. It's important to note the Pentateuch was translated into Greek at first, and that was in the third century BCE, the fourth century BCE and over the next two centuries the rest of the Hebrew Bible and Apocrypha were translated into Greek, independently of each other. For years the Torah was the Bible the Greek speaking Jews used. And, if you check my evidence, you will see that they used the plural Sabbaths for a singular Sabbath three times in Exodus 16 alone. In any case, you now have a webpage you can use anytime you want to know what a certain noun in the LXX was plural or singular.

For example, here is the Septuagint page for Numbers 15:32 where a plural Sabbath has a singular meaning. It is easy to find the Greek word for Sabbath and you will see it is grammatically plural. Hit CTRL and F at the same time, then enter G4521 into the window and the Greek word for Sabbath will be highlighted.

Numbers 15:32 και ησαν οι υιοι ισραηλ εν τη ερημω και ευρον ανδρα συλλεγοντα ξυλα τη ημερα των σαββατων

From Google AI:

Is the Septuagint reliable?

The Septuagint has been rejected as scriptural by mainstream Rabbinic Judaism for a couple of reasons. First, the Septuagint differs from the Hebrew source texts in many cases (particularly in the Book of Job). Second, the translations appear at times to demonstrate an ignorance of Hebrew idiomatic usage.

From Google AI

The Septuagint was translated over a period of centuries, with the Pentateuch being translated in the 3rd century BCE and other books translated over the next two to three centuries. The translation process was divided into several stages, and the quality and style of the translators varied considerably from book to book.

The name "Septuagint" comes from the Latin word septuaginta, which means "70". The name is based on the legend that 72 translators, 6 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel, worked independently to translate the whole and ultimately produced identical versions. However, this story is widely viewed as implausible today.

The Septuagint was a significant translation because it allowed new people access to the Biblical text. It was the first translation of the Hebrew Bible into any other language.

SABER TRUTH TIGER

If the above is true, the Greek Pentateuch was written in the third century CE, long before the rest of the Hebrew Bible was translated into Greek. The Pentateuch was therefore the only Bible the Greek speaking Jews could use for a long while. This means I was in error when I claimed 72 translators translated the LXX earlier in this thread.

Excellent. You believe the LXX calls Nisan 15 a Sabbath.

If I follow your logic you say the Pentateuch has all plurals, therefore...what? Nisan 15 was not a Sabbath?

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

Excellent. You believe the LXX calls Nisan 15 a Sabbath.

Yes, it calls Nisan 15 a Sabbath by implication. It doesn't call it directly a Sabbath, but it would be in error to do so either way.

If I follow your logic you say the Pentateuch has all plurals, therefore...what? Nisan 15 was not a Sabbath?

You don't need to follow my logic. I supplied you with the resources to study for yourself. I am not going to do all your homework for you. Check up on what I say, don't take my word for it. I have supplied you with the evidence so instead of saying according to my logic, say, "According to the sources Saber Truth supplied, does the Pentateuch have all plurals for the sabbath? Then check up on what I say and find out for yourself. I have a6: feeling you are pumping me to provide you more evidence so you can write it down somewhere but until you check my sources and verify what I said about Exodus 16:23, 25, and 26 with the plural Sabbaths when a single day is in view, I am not going to keep feeding you new information. Check my comments that Exodus 16:23, 25, and 26 has plural Sabbaths in the Greek for a singular meaning.

I thought you had thrown in the towel on the Nisan 15 Sabbath issue. The verse in Leviticus 23:11 in the LXX says the day after THE FIRST DAY where the Sabbath belongs. The translators removed the word Sabbath and replaced it with the "The First Day." Then, in Leviticus 23:15 the LXX translators wrote this:

And ye shall number to yourselves from the day after the sabbath, from the day on which ye shall offer the sheaf of the heave-offering, seven full weeks:

Notice they claim you are to number your days AFTER the SABBATH, so yes, Nisan 15 is by implication is being referred to as a Sabbath. Even the JPS Tanach refers to sabbath in the singular. There are not two Sabbaths in Leviticus 23:15 in the LXX because everyone except certain individuals knows that the grammatical plural day in the LXX in Leviticus 23:15 means the singular. Just because the sabbath is in the grammatical plural in Levitus 23:15 does not mean it is a plural. Check the sources I have given you. Until you have examined my evidence in Exodus 16, please stop bothering me with inane questions and digging for more information. In the Pentateuch, sabbath was in the plural, and used for singular and plural uses. It's like the English word "deer" which can be plural or singular.

Until you have examined my Exodus 16 evidence please don't bother me again. I want you to look at the plural Sabbaths in Exodus 16 and give me an explanation why a plural Sabbath is being used for the singular. Do your own homework. I am not going to do it for you.