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Shaul is a Pharisee who wrote well and had a gift for d,rashing. And i do not recall that he ever said sin entered the world with adam.
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned
And what man is shaul speaking about?Romans 5:12
It's a really interesting debate. Initially we need to know whether the Garden was where Israel now is. If this was so, then it is not going to be a problem because G_d could easily guide the Romans to cut down a particular tree - but which tree would it have been? Just one of the two for both the upright and the cross beam, or both with each tree making up a part of the cross e.g. the tree of good and evil as the cross beam and the Tree of Life as the vertical post (or vice versa); the symbalism would be amazing if that were to be the case. So many possibilities!
We know that there is a tree in the Garden of Gethesmane, the roots of which (and possibly the trunk) date back some two millennia, so treees can certainly live for long periods of time - longevity of tree life is not necessarily a problem. I read, many years ago, that it had been discovered, to the surprise of all in the scientific world, that under the ice in the Arctic circle evidence was found of lush green grasses, plants and trees, so maybe the Garden could have been anywhere. But where? It would be nice to think that it was, at least, somewhere in Israel, so that we could solve these issues, but maybe G_d would not want that tree / those trees to be found today.
Although the Romans would have cut down what was, to them, a random tree, there is no reason G_d could not have guided them to cut down a very old tree, even if they didn't realise it; there were, of course, a number of events within Yeshua's life that 'fulfilled prophecy' without the Romans, and others, ever realising them. This maybe one of those?
Certainly trees, or parts thereof, are used a lot, metaphorically, in the scriptures, some causing many problems (Romans 11:17ff), others having a feeling of reality that we can understand and accept (the trunk of Jesse), making Yeshua the Tree of Life, as well as the Vine, then there is the Garden , as you mention, and so on. Of course, all this will make no sense to those who say the Garden of Eden account is irrelevant, because the earth was not created as the Bible says.
I really love the Tree of Life in the Grand Synagogue in Jerusalem! My all time favourite stained glass window. I have a picture of it that I was given to me when I went there just after the synagogue was opened
Edited to add: If the Romans used the Tree of Life on which to crucify Yeshua, does that not mean that the Tree of Life (or the Tree of Good and Evil) is dead? Just an after-thought.
Strong painkiller effect might be the cause of the error in counting!
Paul is making a contrast & comparison between the first and second Adam. Christ is the 2nd Adam. Paul is contrasting how through 1 man, sin and death came into the world. And by 1 man(Christ) we have life and righteousness.And what man is shaul speaking about?
Is there more in the Spirit of Knowledge and Understaning being given by shaul?
"For Lack of knowledge"
"By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith."
I don't recall shaul mentioning Adam in Romans 5
Perhaps he is speaking of the man of sin, qayin (cain)
And the Lord said to Cain, "Why are you annoyed, and why has your countenance fallen? ווַיֹּ֥אמֶר יְהֹוָ֖ה אֶל־קָ֑יִן לָ֚מָּה חָ֣רָה לָ֔ךְ וְלָ֖מָּה נָֽפְל֥וּ פָנֶֽיךָ:
7Is it not so that if you improve, it will be forgiven you? If you do not improve, however, at the entrance, sin is lying, and to you is its longing, but you can rule over it." זהֲל֤וֹא אִם־תֵּיטִיב֙ שְׂאֵ֔ת וְאִם֙ לֹ֣א תֵיטִ֔יב לַפֶּ֖תַח חַטָּ֣את רֹבֵ֑ץ וְאֵלֶ֨יךָ֙ תְּשׁ֣וּקָת֔וֹ וְאַתָּ֖ה תִּמְשָׁל־בּֽוֹ:
8And Cain spoke to Abel his brother, and it came to pass when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother and slew him. חוַיֹּ֥אמֶר קַ֖יִן אֶל־הֶ֣בֶל אָחִ֑יו וַֽיְהִי֙ בִּֽהְיוֹתָ֣ם בַּשָּׂדֶ֔ה וַיָּ֥קָם קַ֛יִן אֶל־הֶ֥בֶל אָחִ֖יו וַיַּֽהַרְגֵֽהוּ:
9And the Lord said to Cain, "Where is Abel your brother?" And he said, "I do not know. Am I my brother's keeper?" טוַיֹּ֤אמֶר יְהֹוָה֙ אֶל־קַ֔יִן אֵ֖י הֶ֣בֶל אָחִ֑יךָ וַיֹּ֨אמֶר֙ לֹ֣א יָדַ֔עְתִּי הֲשֹׁמֵ֥ר אָחִ֖י אָנֹֽכִי:
10And He said, "What have you done? Hark! Your brother's blood cries out to Me from the earth. יוַיֹּ֖אמֶר מֶ֣ה עָשִׂ֑יתָ ק֚וֹל דְּמֵ֣י אָחִ֔יךָ צֹֽעֲקִ֥ים אֵלַ֖י מִן־הָֽאֲדָמָֽה:
11And now, you are cursed even more than the ground, which opened its mouth to take your brother's blood from your hand. יאוְעַתָּ֖ה אָר֣וּר אָ֑תָּה מִן־הָֽאֲדָמָה֙ אֲשֶׁ֣ר פָּֽצְתָ֣ה אֶת־פִּ֔יהָ לָקַ֛חַת אֶת־דְּמֵ֥י אָחִ֖יךָ מִיָּדֶֽךָ:
“You have heard that our fathers were told, ‘Do not murder,’ and that anyone who commits murder will be subject to judgment. 22 But I tell you that anyone who nurses anger without cause against his brother will be subject to judgment;
Blessings Always
Which death is it that Adam brought into The world?Paul is making a contrast & comparison between the first and second Adam. Christ is the 2nd Adam. Paul is contrasting how through 1 man, sin and death came into the world. And by 1 man(Christ) we have life and righteousness.
He’s not talking about Cain. Adam brought sin and death into the world, not Cain.
I hope you are feeling better now.
I don't think that the tree of life would be used in this, he was not conquering life, but the other one that lead to mans disobedience. That is the one that brought death into the world.
Yes, that tree in Gethsemane I've heard some interesting things about it, I hope to visit there someday but that may be a dream.
As far as where the garden was or more likely, 'is' I've been pondering different dimensions lately. Parallel universes or earths. Could it have been made available when it came time to crucify him?
A thought, since the serpent on a pole represented sin and they were told when they looked upon it they would be healed, which I believe represents what would happen in the future to Yeshua, and if we take this scripture along side that:
Isaiah 53
But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we are healed.
6 We all like sheep have gone astray, each one has turned to his own way;and the L-RD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
I believe that at the moment before he gave up the Spirit and said Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?,
that was when the Father 'laid' upon him the sins of the world. That is what crushed him to death I believe.
But first the cross was laid upon him, could it have been a stake from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil that caused death, which by dying on that cross he conquered?
Yes,Paul is making a contrast & comparison between the first and second Adam. Christ is the 2nd Adam. Paul is contrasting how through 1 man, sin and death came into the world. And by 1 man(Christ) we have life and righteousness.
He’s not talking about Cain. Adam brought sin and death into the world, not Cain.
i have no idea what you’re going on about, but my only purpose of responding was to show that the Apostle Paul did teach that sin came through 1 man: AdamYes,
I know that the first Adam is a Living soul and the second Adam a quickening Spirit'
You are not expounding upon scripture with Fruits..
Lacking a measure of something perhaps.
Think of what ole sha,aul spoke of about studying to show yourselves approved. Then consider the terrain of the torah and ask the Wonderful counselor for Understanding..
2 corinthians 10
"For although we do live in the world, we do not wage war in a worldly way; 4 because the weapons we use to wage war are not worldly. On the contrary, they have God’s power for demolishing strongholds. We demolish arguments 5 and every arrogance that raises itself up against the knowledge of God; we take every thought captive and make it obey the Messiah. 6 And when you have become completely obedient, then we will be ready to punish every act of disobedience."
who and what is cursed?
the serpent., and the soil..
I dont recall anything of a curse on Adam or Chavah.
its not till qayin(cain) murders his brother that the separation begins and the lineage of sheth for ten generations is preserved till noach and 7 others are redeemed from the destruction brought on by the wickedness of qayins' line.
Seems fairly simple to me..
The only thing i can speak of is what is written plainly first. PRDS.
romans 3
Generations
Then what advantage has the Jew? What is the value of being circumcised? 2 Much in every way! In the first place, the Jews were entrusted with the very words of God.
3 If some of them were unfaithful, so what? Does their faithlessness cancel God’s faithfulness? 4 Heaven forbid! God would be true even if everyone were a liar! — as the TaNaKh says,
“so that you, God, may be proved right in your words
and win the verdict when you are put on trial.”
5 Now if our unrighteousness highlights God’s righteousness, what should we say? That God is unrighteous to inflict his anger on us?
(I am speaking here the way people commonly do.)
6 Heaven forbid!
Else, how could God judge the world?
7 “But,” you say, “if, through my lie, God’s truth is enhanced and brings him greater glory, why am I still judged merely for being a sinner?” 8 Indeed! Why not say
(as some people slander us by claiming we do say),
“Let us do evil, so that good may come of it”?
Against them the judgment is a just one!
I believe there is more than most want to see in the genealogy accounts given by Matthew and Luke.
There is Discernment being offered with each.
Matthew speaks of a specific number of generations to share something important to all of us. Especially to those who think to heap a burden on the innocent who the Lord never asked to carry such.
Then in Luke we are allowed to follow the Blood line all the way to Adam the son of God.
Where their is Blood there is?
I can only imagine a reason the serpent would think to call the woman cursed.
Perhaps she has been secreted away for a time this yr.
2 corinthians 4
The Tanakh says, “I trusted, therefore I spoke.” Since we have that same Spirit who enables us to trust, we also trust and therefore speak; 14 because we know that he who raised the Lord Yeshua will also raise us with Yeshua and bring us along with you into his presence. 15 All this is for your sakes, so that as grace flows out to more and more people, it may cause thanksgiving to overflow and bring glory to God.
16 This is why we do not lose courage. Though our outer self is heading for decay, our inner self is being renewed daily. 17 For our light and transient troubles are achieving for us an everlasting glory whose weight is beyond description. 18 We concentrate not on what is seen but on what is not seen, since things seen are temporary, but things not seen are eternal.
Paul taught no such thing.i have no idea what you’re going on about, but my only purpose of responding was to show that the Apostle Paul did teach that sin came through 1 man: Adam
Noah and three sons... =four men with their wives.I don't recall ever hearing anything about the 4 women on the ark.
And i imagine the reason is purity.
From chavah (mother of all living) till rebecah there is no mention of women as far as I can see.
But what do I know.
Perhaps if someone where to listen to the Holy Spirit with the gift of clarity given by our Lord in the Living Water They would consider the genealogy account given by yair(luke).
Yes,
The difference between him and matit,yahu (matthew) giving a generational account is a beautiful gift as far as I can see.
Has anyone here ever considered the Torah and walked with a strength of forgiveness with the wonderfull counselor To ask for instruction?
I see something profound in what was freely given to yair(luke) concerning this genealogy.
A blood line that a person can follow all the way to Adam the Living soul and son of God.
Where there is blood?
The life is in the?
Ah yes,
Three that bare witness on earth.
Only a yet, to peirce time with 3s and 4s.
Stand or stumble, faith is a handbreadth to bring forth the Lily of the feild.
Mattit,yahu justly gave with charity what yeshayahu spoke of freely. The place beyond the sod that was once hidden in the first command with promise. Is now a seal the enemy cannot reach.
Sealed to be trampled into the very dust outside the garden the Adam was formed from.
Blessings Always.
Noah and three sons... =four men with their wives.
Genesis 7:7
Noah, his sons, his wife, and his sons’ wives with him entered the ark to escape the floodwaters.
deuteronomy 21And what man is shaul speaking about?
Is there more in the Spirit of Knowledge and Understaning being given by shaul?
"For Lack of knowledge"
"By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith."
I don't recall shaul mentioning Adam in Romans 5
Perhaps he is speaking of the man of sin, qayin (cain)
the serpent is cursed for its actions seperate from Adam and Chavah. While the soil is cursed on account of adam. cain is cursed even more than the ground!
And the Lord said to Cain, "Why are you annoyed, and why has your countenance fallen? ווַיֹּ֥אמֶר יְהֹוָ֖ה אֶל־קָ֑יִן לָ֚מָּה חָ֣רָה לָ֔ךְ וְלָ֖מָּה נָֽפְל֥וּ פָנֶֽיךָ:
7Is it not so that if you improve, it will be forgiven you? If you do not improve, however, at the entrance, sin is lying, and to you is its longing, but you can rule over it." זהֲל֤וֹא אִם־תֵּיטִיב֙ שְׂאֵ֔ת וְאִם֙ לֹ֣א תֵיטִ֔יב לַפֶּ֖תַח חַטָּ֣את רֹבֵ֑ץ וְאֵלֶ֨יךָ֙ תְּשׁ֣וּקָת֔וֹ וְאַתָּ֖ה תִּמְשָׁל־בּֽוֹ: And Cain spoke to Abel his brother, and it came to pass when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother and slew him. חוַיֹּ֥אמֶר קַ֖יִן אֶל־הֶ֣בֶל אָחִ֑יו וַֽיְהִי֙ בִּֽהְיוֹתָ֣ם בַּשָּׂדֶ֔ה וַיָּ֥קָם קַ֛יִן אֶל־הֶ֥בֶל אָחִ֖יו וַיַּֽהַרְגֵֽהוּ:
And the Lord said to Cain, "Where is Abel your brother?" And he said, "I do not know. Am I my brother's keeper?" טוַיֹּ֤אמֶר יְהֹוָה֙ אֶל־קַ֔יִן אֵ֖י הֶ֣בֶל אָחִ֑יךָ וַיֹּ֨אמֶר֙ לֹ֣א יָדַ֔עְתִּי הֲשֹׁמֵ֥ר אָחִ֖י אָנֹֽכִי:
And He said, "What have you done? Hark! Your brother's blood cries out to Me from the earth. יוַיֹּ֖אמֶר מֶ֣ה עָשִׂ֑יתָ ק֚וֹל דְּמֵ֣י אָחִ֔יךָ צֹֽעֲקִ֥ים אֵלַ֖י מִן־הָֽאֲדָמָֽה:
And now,
you are cursed
even more than the ground,
which opened its mouth to take your brother's blood from your hand. יאוְעַתָּ֖ה אָר֣וּר אָ֑תָּה מִן־הָֽאֲדָמָה֙ אֲשֶׁ֣ר פָּֽצְתָ֣ה אֶת־פִּ֔יהָ לָקַ֛חַת אֶת־דְּמֵ֥י אָחִ֖יךָ מִיָּדֶֽךָ:
“You have heard that our fathers were told, ‘Do not murder,’ and that anyone who commits murder will be subject to judgment.
But I tell you that anyone who nurses anger without cause against his brother will be subject to judgment;
Blessings Always
genesis 10
The sons of Shem were Elam and Asshur and Arpachshad and Lud and Aram
1 chronicles 1
And Arpachshad begot Shelah, and Shelah begot Eber.
luke 3
of Shelah,
of Arpakhshad, of Shem, of Noach, of Lemekh,
37 of Metushelach, of Hanokh, of Yered, of Mahalal’el, of Keinan,
38 of Enosh, of Shet, of Adam, of God.
I wonder how and why this name is listed in the lineages?
36 of Keinan,
I let my beard grow for a month .Was the Cross actually made of the tree from the Garden in Eden?
8 And the L-RD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
9 And out of the ground made the L-RD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
This paradise was not created on earth, in stead we read that it was 'planted' there by G-d.
Many think because it's talking about a garden that it means that G-d stuck seeds in the ground and trees came up. I don't think that is what it was trying to convey.
You can 'plant your feet'. This means you pick them up and put them down in a place you want. It can mean to put into place, to post or station something firmly.
Now in this 'garden' this is what the L-RD did: out of the ground made the L-RD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food.
So these are beautiful trees that would provide a great environment and also be good for food if one so desired.
Now what follows has been a riddle of the centuries.
"the tree of life also in the midst of the garden,
and the tree of knowledge of good and evil."
In the middle of the fruit trees we find these two other 'trees'.
Why are they there? Why not just the fruit trees?
If one is called the Tree of Life, why isn't the other called the Tree of Death?
The eating from it is what brought death to mankind.
but it is called' the tree of knowledge of good and evil'
In other words, The Tree of the knowledge of right and wrong (in G-ds eyes)
Only one knew what that was because he had defied G-d and rebelled.
That one in Revelation 12 is called :
…But the dragon was not strong enough, and no longer was any place found in heaven for him and his angels.
9 And the great dragon was hurled down — the ancient serpent called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world.
I won't get into why he was allowed in the Garden with Adam and Havah, but it seems by the passage in Ezekiel he was there before he fell and was allowed to stay to test the new creation.
So it is not too much conjecture to postulate that the 'tree' of the knowledge of good/evil right/wrong, is the Adversary.
The Adversary is the one who opposes G-d.
Now there was another Tree there, and this is the 'Opposed'.
the Gospel of John harkens back many times to the Creation story and Genesis. This passage does so as well.
5 “Lord,” said Thomas, “we do not know where You are going, so how can we know the way?”
6 Jesus answered, “I am the way, the truth, and the life".
Since Ancient times when the Torah is brought up Proverbs 3:17-18 is recited as follows.
“It is a tree of life to all who grasp it, and whoever holds on to it is happy; its ways are ways of pleasantness, and all it paths are peace.
The Torah is considered Israel's wisdom , direct from G-d.
When we look in the last book of the Bible, Revelation we see back to the Garden, however this time something is missing, the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.
There is only one tree standing there,
The tree of LIFE>
Gen 3:…23 therefore the L-RD God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken.
24 So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.
No mention of the other tree there. Nor here either.
Rev 22:1Then the angel showed me a river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb,
2 down the middle of the main street of the city. On either side of the river stood a tree of life, producing twelve kinds of fruit and yielding a fresh crop for each month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.
So what happened to that other tree?
I propose that was used to make the Cross upon whom our Savior hung from.
The unblemished lamb who took on the sins of the world.
Good -- Evil
Right (keeping G-ds laws) ---Wrong--(lawless)
The deceiver who was in the garden did not just lie that would be too easy, a deceiver is one who 'mixes' truth with lies.
When the Israelites were in the wilderness they not only rebelled agaisnt Moses, but of G-d himself, they became like the Adversary.
…5 The people spoke against God and Moses, "Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? For there is no food and no water, and we loathe this miserable food." 6 The L-RD sent fiery serpents among the people and they bit the people, so that many people of Israel died.
What was the cure?
They repented and Moses interceded for them. (Numbers 21)
And the L-RD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.
The serpent is of course the Adversary, but why is it put upon a pole?
Because it represented the Salvation G-d was to ultimately bring to his people.
Yeshua was that Serpent on the Pole.
He 'became' sin for us. The Father put the sins of the people upon him. What was Good and pure now became Evil and impure.
The tree of life became the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil to restore us back to the Garden where we can once again Walk with G-d with no more temptation.
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