The cross in the sky

[ContraMundum]

God definitely did something new with Jesus. I interpret most of the Old Testament spiritually and in light of the New.

A few people in this sub-forum tend to exalt the OT above the NT, and consider Jesus as having done nothing new apart from ending sacrifice. IOW, they would interpret the NT in the light of the OT, and some even consider go way further than that. It's really the bottom line with those people and they tend to dodge the big question- does Jesus have any authority other than Rabbinic/teaching? Can He (if He is God- some here deny that) change things? The debate rarely gets addressed but it is the real issue at hand when discussing the relationship between the Testaments and in particular the implications it has for living in this day and age.

 

[visionary]

A few people in this sub-forum tend to exalt the OT above the NT, and consider Jesus as having done nothing new apart from ending sacrifice. IOW, they would interpret the NT in the light of the OT, and some even consider go way further than that. It's really the bottom line with those people and they tend to dodge the big question- does Jesus have any authority other than Rabbinic/teaching? Can He (if He is God- some here deny that) change things? The debate rarely gets addressed but it is the real issue at hand when discussing the relationship between the Testaments and in particular the implications it has for living in this day and age.

Even Yeshua pointed to the OT to explain what He was saying. In fact, all the disciples used the OT to confirm NT. Yeshua's authority came from God Himself, confirmed and witnessed by OT. If there is no harmony in an individual's theology regarding OT reflected in NT then there needs to be more study and prayer of the two to see the harmony.

 

[Viren]

A few people in this sub-forum tend to exalt the OT above the NT, and consider Jesus as having done nothing new apart from ending sacrifice. IOW, they would interpret the NT in the light of the OT, and some even consider go way further than that. It's really the bottom line with those people and they tend to dodge the big question- does Jesus have any authority other than Rabbinic/teaching? Can He (if He is God- some here deny that) change things? The debate rarely gets addressed but it is the real issue at hand when discussing the relationship between the Testaments and in particular the implications it has for living in this day and age.

It should be the NT over the OT while still linking them together imo.

In Christ the fullness of God lives in bodily form. (Colosssians 2:9) That's a pretty clear message.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

"Halo phantom-sun" by Gabor Szilasi - Own work. Licensed under CC BY-SA 4.0 via Wikimedia Commons - File:Halo phantom-sun.jpg - Wikimedia Commons

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[Hoshiyya]

Unless of course that's actually what God does and the Catholics are right......

...which I doubt.

Having said that, I believe Constantine may have seen a sign in the sky which he interpreted as a Cross/Chi Rho, and with a little ancient embellishment (common to all peoples back then) it became a little more of a story than it really was.

Relative to your hypothetical:

Yes but if so then his style changed.

Aren't there some verses about whether or not God changes ?

Maybe Cherubs had some body change surgery to cut off the extra heads before posing for Leonardo

 

[BukiRob]

It should be the NT over the OT while still linking them together imo.

In Christ the fullness of God lives in bodily form. (Colosssians 2:9) That's a pretty clear message.

Yet John says In the beginning was the WORD.... What word? Since the NT had not been canonized John could not and is not speaking about the NT. He is speaking about the Torah...

The Word became Flesh and dwelt among us... Yeshua is the embodiment of Torah. This being true, how then can one say the NT over Torah... such a thing is not possible and in fact scripture is rather clear it is not so

 

[BukiRob]

Yet John says In the beginning was the WORD.... What word? Since the NT had not been canonized John could not and is not speaking about the NT. He is speaking about the Torah...

The Word became Flesh and dwelt among us... Yeshua is the embodiment of Torah. This being true, how then can one say the NT over Torah... such a thing is not possible and in fact scripture is rather clear it is not so.

Once we recognize Messiah for who he truly is, then much of what he says takes on BOLD clarity.

Matt 7:
“21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many [n]miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

what is Yeshua talking about when he says "you who practice lawlessness?" I believe he is speaking to those who ignore Adonai's Statues, Decree's and yes, LAW (TORAH)

Yes, we are saved by grace and as a result our Faith is accounted as righteousness before the Father. HOWEVER, we are REQUIRED to walk UPRIGHT before Adonai. That is where the Torah comes into play.

Our “doctrines”, our “reproof”, our “corrections” and our “instruction in righteousness”, all derive from the Torah, both written and living.

nnnttt

 

[pat34lee]

A few people in this sub-forum tend to exalt the OT above the NT, and consider Jesus as having done nothing new apart from ending sacrifice. IOW, they would interpret the NT in the light of the OT, and some even consider go way further than that. It's really the bottom line with those people and they tend to dodge the big question- does Jesus have any authority other than Rabbinic/teaching? Can He (if He is God- some here deny that) change things? The debate rarely gets addressed but it is the real issue at hand when discussing the relationship between the Testaments and in particular the implications it has for living in this day and age.

The Old Testament is the basis for the New, not the other way around. Everything Yeshua did and taught had to conform to the Torah. If he had changed or broken any laws, he would not be messiah and would have rightfully been stoned as a false prophet.

Yeshua was not here to change things immediately. (free the Jews, bring peace, etc.) He came to set the word in motion across the world. What was originally given to Israel to do and they refused, was now given to gentiles who did it.

 

[Lulav]

Referring to the cross vision in the sky mentioned in OP.

But if it did happen, chances are it may not have been from God.
The Catholics seem to have a few miracles happening in their history, like Fatima apparition and various Lady apparations, but I think they may not be from God. They don't seem particularly like "Biblical apparitions", they have a distinct Catholic style to them.

I once described Biblical cherubim (4 heads etc) to a Catholic and I guess he thought I was crazy or making things up, because he knew better. Cherubs are well-fed babies with tiny wings ! Like they had in Greek and Roman mythology.... curious !

Ah, this thread has gone on quite a ride so I wasn't sure what you were speaking about. I agree. I have studied the biblical appearances and find that to be a false sign and wonder. Not to mention that it was not Yeshua's style to conquer the people.

 

[Lulav]

Yeah, I agree. Even more confusing is the fact that the Torah has accounts with God commanding and assisting in warfare, executions and genocide.

One of these days I hope to put your mind at rest regarding that.

You must remember this in the meantime.

"As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher
than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts. ...

And when we 'have a problem' from our own POV with what is written thinking that it isn't right, we must remember two things

1. Where do we get our ideas of right and wrong?
2. We must know our place and if we don't understand something it is on us, and we have no right to judge G-d.

 

[Lulav]

It should be the NT over the OT while still linking them together imo.

In Christ the fullness of God lives in bodily form. (Colosssians 2:9) That's a pretty clear message.

No, you have it backwards, the cart before the horse ain't going nowhere.

If you don't build your house on a foundation, it will surely wash away. Same as life.

The foundation is Torah, all things must be held up to G-ds instructions for life. Yeshua not only taught this but lived it. It was not burdensome to him for he is the living breathing manifestation of the Word of G-d. The Torah for Life is the Word of G-d. You can't separate them, nor can you put the manifestation before the foundation. They are intrinsically and forever entwined.

 

[Lulav]

Yet John says In the beginning was the WORD.... What word? Since the NT had not been canonized John could not and is not speaking about the NT. He is speaking about the Torah...

The Word became Flesh and dwelt among us... Yeshua is the embodiment of Torah. This being true, how then can one say the NT over Torah... such a thing is not possible and in fact scripture is rather clear it is not so

The Old Testament is the basis for the New, not the other way around. Everything Yeshua did and taught had to conform to the Torah. If he had changed or broken any laws, he would not be messiah and would have rightfully been stoned as a false prophet.

 

[Hoshiyya]

" No, you have it backwards, the cart before the horse ain't going nowhere. "

Indeed --
if new revelations can trump old ones, there is absolute chaos, and an unending string of new "prophets", ie Muhammed, Joseph Smith, Bahai'ullah, etc etc etc etc. There would be abrogation-based controversy for all time.

God knows better than to contradict himself. He is not the author of confusion.

 

[visionary]

.

 

[BukiRob]

A few people in this sub-forum tend to exalt the OT above the NT, and consider Jesus as having done nothing new apart from ending sacrifice. IOW, they would interpret the NT in the light of the OT, and some even consider go way further than that. It's really the bottom line with those people and they tend to dodge the big question- does Jesus have any authority other than Rabbinic/teaching? Can He (if He is God- some here deny that) change things? The debate rarely gets addressed but it is the real issue at hand when discussing the relationship between the Testaments and in particular the implications it has for living in this day and age.

He CAN NOT violate his own word PERIOD. And you CAN NOT interpret the Brit Cadasha without seeing it through the Tanak. To do otherwise is an error.

What you are suggesting is like saying we all know 2+2=4 but in this new math 2 +2 does not equal 4 anymore. Truth is Truth. Scripture makes plain that the Torah is TRUTH