The Creationist Corner

[rockytopva]

Nope, the Earth came into existence some 8 billion years after the big bang with the formation of our solar system.

What was before the big bang? What instigated the reaction?

 

[RickG]

What was before the big bang? What instigated the reaction?

Irrelevant to the discussion. All I have seen so far is numerous reasons to dismiss the existence of the Christian God as presented to me in this thread.

 

[rockytopva]

Irrelevant to the discussion. All I have seen so far is numerous reasons to dismiss the existence of the Christian God as presented to me in this thread.

That is because

m (mass) = E /c2 (energy)

It cannot be created and it cannot be destroyed, it merely changed form throughout the eternities. Soon God is going to disassociate the m back in the E/c2 plasma and do something else with it...

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. - 2 Peter 3:10

And God will use that plasma energy and do something else with it...

For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. - Isaiah 65:17

 

[USincognito]

Each person begins as a single cell, formed by the joining of the mother's egg and the father's sperm. That single cell contains the digital code to make thousands of other kinds of cells, from fat cells to bone cells—from brain cells to lung cells. There are muscle cells, skin cells, vein cells, capillary cells and blood cells…

Raise your hand if you were so utterly bereft of knowledge of human anatomy that you needed rockytop's "lesson".

Each of the systems in our anatomy have evolutionary precursors in more basal lineages. For instance the hemoglobin in our red blood cells comes from mutations to inherited basal globin genes that came about during two whole genome duplication events in stem vertebrates (before the evolution of Craniata).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22846683
>> The functional diversification of the vertebrate globin gene superfamily provides an especially vivid illustration of the role of gene duplication and whole-genome duplication in promoting evolutionary innovation. For example, key globin proteins that evolved specialized functions in various aspects of oxidative metabolism and oxygen signaling pathways (hemoglobin [Hb], myoglobin [Mb], and cytoglobin [Cygb]) trace their origins to two whole-genome duplication events in the stem lineage of vertebrates. <<

Our bodies did not suddenly poof into existence de novo.

 

[rockytopva]

Speaking of cells consider the bone. The most abundant metal in our body is the alkaline earth metal Calcium (1.5%) — nearly all of it found in bones and teeth. Ironically, calcium's most important role is in bodily functions, such as muscle contraction and protein regulation. In fact, the body will actually pull calcium from bones (causing problems like osteoporosis) if there's not enough of the element in a person's diet.

The miraculous formation of a bone where calcium metal is taken from the field, mixed with organic chemistry, and ends up with a very strong bone!

The body takes the calcium metal to grow bones.

Paul Anderson was the strongest man in the world by just about any measurement. He reputedly lifted over 6,000 pounds on his back, which the Guinness Book of World Records recognized as the heaviest weight ever lifted. It takes very strong bones to support such activity! All designed by the Father himself!

 

[USincognito]

Bones evolved 400 million years ago.

Hard body parts evolved 530 million years ago.

The bones of the human body are nothing new or miraculous. They are an inheritance from our ancestors.

 

[VirOptimus]

So, the arguments presented so far are, "I dont understand, so therefore god".

Not exactly stellar argumentation.

 

[rockytopva]

Evolution cannot discern between the elements. It knows not the difference between Calcium and Carbon for example. Therefore it would be impossible to build bone structure with calcium and organic compounds not knowing chemistry.

 

[VirOptimus]

Evolution cannot discern between the elements. It knows not the difference between Calcium and Carbon for example. Therefore it would be impossible to build bone structure with calcium and organic compounds not knowing chemistry.

Evolution is a process that explains facts, no more no less. Study it and you will at least understand what you are arguing against.

 

[rockytopva]

Evolution is a process that explains facts, no more no less. Study it and you will at least understand what you are arguing against.

It would take a very good chemist to design a bone with calcium, phosphorous, and organic chemistry! No evolution about it! And it would of had to of taken intelligent design to have placed calcium and phosphorus in abundance on planet earth so it could make its way into the human diet. The bone stores 99% of the body's calcium and 85% of the phosphorus.

Calcium is important for overall health. Almost every cell in our body uses calcium in some way. Some areas where our bodies use calcium is in our nervous system, muscles, heart and bone. Our bones store calcium in addition to providing support for our bodies. As we age, we absorb less and less calcium from our diet, causing our bodies to take more and more calcium from our bones. Over time this aging process can cause or contribute to osteopenia or osteoporosis.

We get calcium from the food we eat. Calcium-rich foods include milk, cheeses and other dairy products. We can also get calcium from vitamins and supplements. Our bodies like to keep the amount of calcium in our blood within a certain narrow range. This range allows the cells in our body to stay healthy and perform jobs necessary for life. When blood calcium levels are low the amount of calcium in our blood goes below normal, our parathyroid glands release a hormone called parathyroid hormone (PTH). Although this sounds similar to thyroid hormone, PTH is different. PTH tells our bones to release more calcium into the blood stream. PTH also helps activate vitamin D which in turn increases intestinal calcium absorbtion.

We obtain vitamin D from the foods we eat and from our skin in response to sunlight. Because vitamin D promotes absorption of calcium from the intestine,vitamin D helps to build and maintain strong bones. When we have very low vitamin D levels, we can develop an adult form of rickets, called osteomalacia. Vitamin D (also called Calcitriol) acts as a hormone in the blood, regulating the concentration of calcium and phosphate in the bloodstream and promoting the healthy growth and remodeling of bone. Calcitriol also affects neuromuscular and immune function.

All of these functions depend upon an intelligent designer to transport the elements from their compounds to bone formation.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

Why not deny the law of non contradiction, and have BOTH creation and evolution?

In dreams, *all is possible with God*. So we could have a pragmatic truce, dialetheismm, ie certain cases of true contradictions.

If it is - for all I know - possible that creationism is true, and it is - for all I know - possible that evolution is true, then I live in an epistemic world where I am fallible, and can reasonably take either attitude, even if one is a minority opinion so to speak.

Law of Non Contradiction...


Definition: a given something can’t be both that something and not that something. (link)


All you need is to acknowledge a systematically plastic set of first principles, and under one analysis creationsm holds (as with AV1611VET) and under another set of principles evolution holds (pace creationists).

Your preliminary presumptions etc (am I dreaming, am I in a matrix, is sensory info reliable etc) are unfalsifiable. Yet they are necessary both for evolutionary science and for creationism.

Like someone said, philosophy (in some way) *trumps* science.

So instead of playing one card, the unbeatable ace why not acknowledge there is a whole deck we can play with, biblical creationist, scientifc etc just being two examples from infinite possible cards I would suspect.

And dialtheism would just be allowing two cards at the same time.


Because the assumptions are not falsifiable, or testable, then so called "confirmation of science by brute fact" etc rests on this more dream like foundation. The *ace in the pack* is just another potentially true card. True from an absolute perspective, but to mere mortals it is an unknown - maybe true, maybe false.

The card we play determins outr interpretation, a bit like a philosophical figure ground perception scenario. The cards (axhilliary presuppositions) are the grounds and the theories "creationist" "evolutionist" etc are the figures that arise from the mists.

Or we could use a three valued logic with creation and evolution being "maybe's" depening on preliminary axioms / dogmatics and interpreataion of data etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-valued_logic

 

[rockytopva]

The count of human cells is as high as 100 trillion. All these cells work together for the reality of human life. It takes trillions of cells working together so you can read and interpret this post. Calcium, phosphate and magnesium are the most important and abundant minerals in bone, with calcium and phosphate combining together in the crystalline complex; hydroxyapatite [Ca10(PO4)6 (OH)2]. This complex provides the hard and rigid structure of bone which is essential to its function in supporting soft tissues and as a store of calcium for other body functions. If the cells of our body detect a Calcium deficiency in the blood stream they can actually draw Calcium out of the bones so the bloodstream can support other bodily uses of Calcium.

All of this needed a very intelligent Organic Chemist to figure out... In which we have in God the Father.

 

[DogmaHunter]

A design requires a Designer, creation requires a Creator.

1. bare assertion that the universe / reality-in-general is to be defined as a "design" or a "creation"
2. special pleading, since you'll obviously say that your "creator doesn't need a creator"
3. if god doesn't need a creator, then why does the universe?

Random chance could not have created the world we live in.

This assertion is not in evidence. And, I'll add, can't be in evidence cause you'ld be trying to prove a negative. Thus, this assertion is not just without evidence, it is also meaningless.

The math simply does not allow for that.

Another bare assertion that you cannot prove OR support, as it would require you to have knowledge of ALL POSSIBLE OUTCOMES OF EVERYTHING in order to be able to calculate it. In other words, you'ld have to be all-knowing.

So again, this is a meaningless statement.

This world could not have created itself.

False dichotomy. (either x creates itself, or this particular god I happen to believe in did it)


Congratz, you managed to slip in a boatload of fallacies in only a couple of sentences.

 

[DogmaHunter]

That is because

m (mass) = E /c2 (energy)

That is a formula of physics.
Physics as it applies IN the universe.

Physics as it applies IN the universe is pretty much irrelevant when we are talking about a setting where the universe does NOT exist.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Evolution cannot discern between the elements. It knows not the difference between Calcium and Carbon for example. Therefore it would be impossible to build bone structure with calcium and organic compounds not knowing chemistry.

Evolution is a model that describes a number of bio-chemical processes.

It's not a concious entity that makes decisions with certain intents and planning.

Going by your quote, it seems like you didn't get that memo.

 

[DogmaHunter]

The count of human cells is as high as 100 trillion. All these cells work together for the reality of human life. It takes trillions of cells working together so you can read and interpret this post. Calcium, phosphate and magnesium are the most important and abundant minerals in bone, with calcium and phosphate combining together in the crystalline complex; hydroxyapatite [Ca10(PO4)6 (OH)2]. This complex provides the hard and rigid structure of bone which is essential to its function in supporting soft tissues and as a store of calcium for other body functions. If the cells of our body detect a Calcium deficiency in the blood stream they can actually draw Calcium out of the bones so the bloodstream can support other bodily uses of Calcium.

All of this needed a very intelligent Organic Chemist to figure out... In which we have in God the Father.

No. All this needs is a process like evolution, which, through incremental chemical changes through a process of natural selection, will carry good working systems forward while bad working systems will disappear.

There's no hocus-pocus required.

 

[rockytopva]

No. All this needs is a process like evolution, which, through incremental chemical changes through a process of natural selection, will carry good working systems forward while bad working systems will disappear.

There's no hocus-pocus required.

There is no such thing as natural selection. Natural selection is a generality just as evolution is a generality. The hocus pocus are demonic spirits playing intellectual games with mankind.

1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds
9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.
17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. - 2 Peter 2

 

[DogmaHunter]

There is no such thing as natural selection.

I can't take anyone seriously, who says such a thing.
You'ld have to be completely ignorant on what natural selection is, to make such a statement.

To illustrate....
There is a deadly virus X.
There are individuals Y and Z.
Y has a genetic immunity to X, Z does not.

Both get infected by X.
Z dies and does not reproduce.
Y is unaffected by the infection and thus survives, reproduces and spreads the genes that carry immunity to X.

That is natural selection.
How one can say that this does not happen is beyond me.

Natural selection is a generality just as evolution is a generality.

No, it's not. It's a very specific concept concerning very specific circumstances and factors.

The hocus pocus are demonic spirits playing intellectual games with mankind.

Yes, yes... being intellectual is "demonic", right....

1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds
9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.
17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. - 2 Peter 2

Preaching your religion won't get you anywhere when discussing scientific topics.

 

[joshua 1 9]

1. bare assertion that the universe / reality-in-general is to be defined as a "design" or a "creation"

Function follows design. Have you ever seen a pyramid is Egypt? When you are building out of rock that design is the only way you can build that high. Of course when you build out of iron instead of stone or rock, then you can have a different design. The same is true with brick. You have a different material so you can build using a different design. I was in the construction business way to long to believe that things can build themselves. Even if they could build themselves they still have to follow the laws of design that are built into the universe.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Congratz, you managed to slip in a boatload of fallacies in only a couple of sentences.

Careful, your telling on yourself. Now we know that you are dealing in fallacies by your own admission. It would appear that your not aware that you are the one that is guilty of what you accuse others of. It is one of those laws that the Creator designed into His Creation.