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The Creation Took SIX LITERAL DAYS - Discuss

Do you believe the Genesis account literally?

  • Yes

  • No

  • I'm not sure


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lucaspa

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s3ph said:
If you can prove it then fire away I'd love to hear your explanation.
Go to the work of James Hutton done about 1790 and the papers in the Royal Geological Society in the period 1790-1820. Geologists realized that the geological formations 1) took millions of years to form and 2) there was no global Flood to make them. With that goes the 6 day creation in Genesis 1. Of course, Genesis 2 contradicts that any way when it says creation took place "beyom" -- in one day.

You can find much of the work summarized in Davis A. Young's The Biblical Flood and CC Gillespie's Genesis and Geology.
 
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lucaspa

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Buck72 said:
One more:

Can anyone name ONE benefit that evolution theory has brought to science?
"Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution." Theodosius Dobzhansky.

That's one major benefit to science. Evolution is the unifying idea that makes sense of biology.

In terms of practical benefit, none of the advances in the medical sciences in the last 50 years could have happened without evolution. It is all based on common ancestry being true.

All the advances in understanding ecology and the impact of humans on the environment stem from evolution and the interactions of organisms with each other -- the "Struggle for Existence" and interdependence of organisms that Darwin highlighted.

In the world of design, natural selection is routinely used by humans to get designs that are too tough for them. Search the web for genetic algorithms. All humans do here is set up the environment. Natural selection does the designing.
 
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corgscot

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:clap: First of all i am not a theo-evo or a 6-24 hour day creationist. I have lots of reasons to have problems with both. To me these two groups do not take the Word of God seriously. the 6-24 hour day creationist are hard pressed to find their specific words (literal 24 hour days) in the Bible. That to me says they are only interested in furthering divisions in the body of Christ about a minor doctrine (Yes it is minor- it doesn't shake anything in the creeds of the church). The theo-evos try an apply man made scientist on the scripture and that obviously is wrong.

I just don't know what the problem is with saying I DON'T KNOW??? The scripture is not transparent on this passage- there are plenty of Good- God fearing people and theologians on either side of the issue. After Job complains to God that he is being unjustly put through tough circumstances, God rebukes Job by saying, "where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth." The clear message is that we don't know exactly how or why God does things, but one thing is for certain- God does them...
 
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lucaspa

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corgscot said:
First of all i am not a theo-evo or a 6-24 hour day creationist. I have lots of reasons to have problems with both. To me these two groups do not take the Word of God seriously. the 6-24 hour day creationist are hard pressed to find their specific words (literal 24 hour days) in the Bible. That to me says they are only interested in furthering divisions in the body of Christ about a minor doctrine (Yes it is minor- it doesn't shake anything in the creeds of the church). The theo-evos try an apply man made scientist on the scripture and that obviously is wrong.
1. The phrase 'morning and evening' pretty well defines the 24 hour day. Also, that the editor of the Pentateuch inserted the 6 days of creation as justification for the 6 days of the week and then the Sabbath in Exodus 20:11 gives pretty good evidence that the authors of Genesis 1 meant 24 hour days.

2. Read the first quote in my signature. In saying the last sentence above, you deny that God created. You also deny a tradition from the earliest days of Christianity that God wrote two books: the Bible and Creation.

I just don't know what the problem is with saying I DON'T KNOW???
Because we do know. Young earth creationism was the accepted scientific theory from 1700 - 1831. Scientists -- all theists, nearly all Christian, and most ministers -- showed it to be wrong. And the negative statements in science are the ones that we are sure of:
The earth is not flat.
The aether does not exist.
Proteins are not the hereditary material.
The earth is not the center of the solar system.

We can add to these:
The earth is not young.
There was not a world-wide Flood that caused the geology of the planet.
Each species was not made separately in their present form.

The clear message is that we don't know exactly how or why God does things, but one thing is for certain- God does them...
But God did tell us how He Created. He told us in His Creation. So we do know this.
 
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Curt

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Gen 1:31
31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
(KJV)

Exod 31:15-17
15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
(KJV)

Don't think God meant for us to wait thousands or millions of years to rest.
 
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Why is a literal interpretation of Genesis important?

While it is taught at many bible schools that the 7 day creation is not a literal 7-day creation, Dr James barr(Regius Professor of Hebrew at Oxford Universoty), who himself does not believe in a literal 7 day creation, nonetheless admitted as far as the language of Genesis 1 is concerned that: 'as far as I know, there is no professor of Hebrew or Old testament at any world-class University who does not believe that the writer(s) of Gen 1-11 intended to convey to their readers the ideas that :

a) creation took place in a series of 6 days of 24-hours each.
b) the figures in the Genesis genealogies provided by simple addition a chronology from the beginning of the world up to the later stages in t :cool: he Biblical story.
c)Noah's flood was understood to be world-wide and extinguish all human and animal life except for those in the ark.

Iin like manner, the 19th century liberal professor Marcus Dods, New College, Edinburgh, said:" if, for example, the word "day" in these chapters does not mean a period of 24 hours, the interpretation of Scripture is hopeless."
-------------------------------------------------


Well, let's presume someone comes up to you and asks you the famous question. If there is a God, why is there suffering? If there is a God, then why are there diseases, thorns and suffering?

What would you answer? Well, I believe that you would refer to the Scriptures. Genesis 3:17-19,"
To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,'

"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat of it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return."

The Scripture is clear that thorns and suffering is a result of the curse on Man's sin.

However, if the days of creation are really geological ages of millions of years, then the gospel is undermined at its foundation as it puts death, disease, thorns and suffering before the fall of man. to accept anything other then the 7-24hour literal days as stated in Genesis would be to call God a liar.

And if there was an pre-adamic race, or if evolution took place over millions of years, then who was responsible for all the death and disease that apparently took place before Adam sinned? It would lead to the conclusion that God was to be blamed for all the suffering!

We would be calling God a wicked person... and a Liar!

It is clear that the theory of Evolution and its million of years of death and suffering before man came into the picture contradicts the scriptures.

In EVERY instance where someone does not accept the 'days' of creation to be ordinary days, it is because theyr have NOT allowed the scripture to speak to them in context, as the language requires for communication. They have been influenced by ideas from OUTSIDE scripture. thus they have set a precedent that could allow any word to be interpreted by the preconceived ideas of the person reading the words.

If we cannot take Genesis to be true, then we have no reason to believe that the resurrection, the virgin birth, or any other doctrine in the bible is true. Every doctrine in the bible either directly or indirectly draws its foundation from a literal interpretation of Genesis 1-11.

What is the basis of marriage? Why not divorce when the going gets tough? Why not polygamy or adultery? Why should a man join with a woman and not another man? - The answer is found in Genesis 1-11!

Why is there sin and suffering in the world? Why is there sin in the world?Again, the answer is found in Genesis 1-11!

Why is there a need for the atonement? The sheding of blood? Why did Jesus have to die on the Cross? Again, the answer is in genesis 1-11.

If we can't accept genesis, then we have no basis for sin. No need for Jesus to die on the cross for our sins! The whole Gospel would then be a huge confused lie! It can no longer be called divine inspiration.

If there is no Genesis 1-11, then what need is there for a second Adam? What then does Romans 5:12 refer to when it says that Therefore just as through 1 man, sin entered the world and death through sin... etc. The whole doctrine of Salvation from a single man, Jesus, the 2nd Adam, crumples at its foundation.

If there is no Genesis 1-11, then what basis is there for the sabbath? The 7 day week has no basis outside of scripture.
If there is no Genesis 1-11, then what does revelation mean, when it said that one day a new heaven and earth will be created where the curse of sin is no longer in effect?

When there is no foundation left for An atonment, there is not basis for salvation by grace... not foundation for every doctrine in the bible which centers itself on Jesus and his redemption of the world.

A person cannot have a logical understanding of the scripture unless he accepts a 7 day creation as the foundation of the gospel.

As John says,
I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?(John 3:12)
 
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lucaspa said:
Go to the work of James Hutton done about 1790 and the papers in the Royal Geological Society in the period 1790-1820. Geologists realized that the geological formations 1) took millions of years to form and 2) there was no global Flood to make them. With that goes the 6 day creation in Genesis 1. Of course, Genesis 2 contradicts that any way when it says creation took place "beyom" -- in one day.

You can find much of the work summarized in Davis A. Young's The Biblical Flood and CC Gillespie's Genesis and Geology.

Dear Lucaspa, are you familiar with the latest research in modern day geology? Have you studied or read paper written by secular geologist that show how the many rock layers in geological formation can be formed in just hours? Have you studied mount St Helen's eruption where metres upon metres of multiple rock layers were formed in just a few hours? Here's some REAL documentation from a technical paper that shows that the geological layer can be formed in hours.

Fine layering was produced within hours at MT St Helens on June 12, 1980 by hurricane velocity surging flows from the crater of the volcano. The 25-foot thick (7.6 m), June 12 deposit is exposed in the middle of the cliff. It is overlain by the massive, but thinner, March 19,1982 mudflow deposit, and is underlain by the air-fall debris from the last hours of the May 18, 1980, nine-hour eruption

This was presented on 1986. Mount St Helens and catastrophism. In: Proceedings of the First International Conference on Creationism, R. E. Walsh, C. L. Brooks and R. S. Crowell (eds), Creation Science Fellowship, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, Vol. 1, pp. 3–9.

-------------------------------------------------
Also,

On June 12, 1980 a 25 foot (7.6 m) thick stratified pyroclastic layer accumulated within a few hours below the Mt St Helens volcano (Washington, USA) as a result of pyroclastic flow deposits amassed from ground-hugging, fluidised, turbulent slurries of volcanic debris which moved at high velocities off the flank of the volcano when an eruption plume collapsed.Close examination of this layer revealed that it consisted of thin laminae of fine and coarse pumice ash, usually alternating, and sometimes cross-bedded. That such a laminated deposit could form catastrophically has been confirmed by Berthault’s sedimentation experiments and applied to a creationist understanding of the Flood-deposition of thinly laminated shale strata of the Grand Canyon sequence.

Even the weekly international science journal Nature, arguably the world’s leading scientific publication, has just published and commented upon the results of experiments similar to those performed by Berthault.
------------------------------------------

Up to 400 feet thickness of strata have formed since 1980 at Mount St. Helens.These deposits include fine pumice ash laminae and beds from one millimeter thick to greater than one meter thick, each representing just a few seconds to several minutes of accumulation. A deposit accumulated in less than one day, on June 12, 1980, is 25 feet thick and contains many thin laminae and beds. Conventionally, sedimentary laminae and beds are assumed to represent longer seasonal variations, or annual changes, as the layers accumulated very slowly. Mount St. Helens teaches us that the stratified layers commonly characterizing geological formations can form very rapidly by flow processes. Such features have been formed quickly underwater in laboratory sedimentation tanks, and it should not surprise us to see that they have formed in a natural catastrophe

In the academic video, experiments in stratification, Guy Berthault demostrated on VIDEO that layers can be formed rapidly by passing sediments in RUNNING WATER. He has submitted various papers on the subject. eg.

Berthault, G., 1988. Experiments on lamination of sediments. CEN Tech. J., 3:25–29.

Berthault, G., 1986. Experiments on lamination of sediments, resulting from a periodic graded-bedding subsequent to deposition — a contribution to the explanation of lamination of various sediments and sedimentary rocks. Compte Rendus Académie des Sciences, Paris, 303 (Série II, no. 17):1569–1574.

His experiments have demonstrated how multiple laminations form spontaneously during sedimentation of heterogranular mixtures of sediments in air, in still water, and in running water. In subsequent research Berthault has teamed up with Professor Piérre Julien in the Engineering Research Center of the Civil Engineering Department at Colorado State University, Fort Collins (USA). The results were 1st published in 1994, after their research had been published by the Geological Society of France. Their sedimentation experiments are continuing.

The "Nature" experiment found that mixtures of grains of different sizes spontaneously segregate in the absence of external perturbations; that is, when such a mixture is simply poured onto a pile, the large grains are more likely to be found near the base, while the small grains are more likely near the top. Furthermore, when a granular mixture is poured between two vertical plates, the mixture spontaneously stratifies into alternating layers of small and large grains whenever the large grains have a larger angle of repose than the small grains. Application—the stratification is related to the occurrence of avalanches.

Both the stratification and segregation of a mixture of two types of grains can be observed to occur spontaneously as the mixture is poured into a narrow box, the mixture flowing as the slope of the ‘sandpile’ formed steepens. When the angle of repose of the larger grains is greater than that of the smaller grains, the flow causes spontaneous stratification of the medium to occur, and alternating layers composed of large and small particles are formed, with the smaller and ‘smoother’ (lower angle of repose) grains found below the larger and ‘rougher’ grains (there was a beautiful colour photo in Nature). Even within the layers, size segregation of the grains occurs, with the smaller grains tending to be nearer the top of the pile.

===============================================



In other words, the layers we see in the sedimentary rock layers can and ARE formed by TONS OF RUNNING WATER as expected in a GLOBAL FLOOD. The rock layers are evidence for a global flood and not formed by slow uniformatarian deposition of sediments. The Evidence as seen in the geological layers is more in favour of a global flood in the past then it is for slow deposition.
 
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Karl - Liberal Backslider said:
Problem is, Poetry, that if you are correct, then Christianity is false, because the world was not created in six days.


Karl, what I said is true. There is no way one can reconcile the teachings of the bible with evolution or any other long age belief. My post was directed at the Christians who claim that there is no conflict between Christianity and evolution.

However, I believe the evidence is for a recent creation. And that the universe, was created in 6 literal days.
:wave:
Just a little background info... I used to be a thestic evolutionist. When I was confronted with the fact that evolution and the bible cannot both be true, I did an intense study on the scientific evidence for evolution, so that the Christian faith can be poven wrong.

I went away with a totally different understanding. That the scientific evidence fits a young age of the earth as claimed by the Bible. I found out that there was no sound evidence for evolution. (Dr. Lee Spetner, a research with John Hopkins University that studies the Signal-Noise relationship in DNA,[mutations], concluded that there is not a single point mutation in the world that increases the genetic complexity of an organism.) All known mutation(including beneficial ones such as antibiotic resistance in bacteria and sickle-cell anemia) are observed to be either neutral, or harmful to genetic information. When Prof. Richard Darwkins was asked in an interview to name 1 example of a mutation that increases genetic complexity, he couldn't.

There is no mechanism for an increase in genetic complexity. Mutations destroys information. Many think that if evolution is like a train that moves a metre everytime it mutates, it will soon reach the other side of the country given lots of time.

In reality however, the train is moving in the opposite direction. If I can use a term to discribe mutations, it would be microDEVOLUTION. Not micro evolution.

There is no evidence for evolution. I stand by this claim. We are not formed by chance! We were created by a God as stated in the bible in 7 literal days.
 
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lucaspa

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poetry of love said:
Why is a literal interpretation of Genesis important?

While it is taught at many bible schools that the 7 day creation is not a literal 7-day creation, Dr James barr(Regius Professor of Hebrew at Oxford Universoty), who himself does not believe in a literal 7 day creation, nonetheless admitted as far as the language of Genesis 1 is concerned that: 'as far as I know, there is no professor of Hebrew or Old testament at any world-class University who does not believe that the writer(s) of Gen 1-11 intended to convey to their readers the ideas that :
Notice the bolded parts. Yes, the writers meant 24 hour days, but did not mean for us to take creation a literally occuring in 24 hours. The 24 hours is to provide an unneeded justification for the Sabbath. It is a theological message, not a historical one.

Well, let's presume someone comes up to you and asks you the famous question. If there is a God, why is there suffering? If there is a God, then why are there diseases, thorns and suffering?

What would you answer?
Certainly not what you wrote. This is the man-made theory that all suffering came into existence. But the Genesis 3:17-20 that you quoted does not support the theory. We get a very limited punishment. All you get from that is that farming is hard. Well, DUH! Any farmer can tell you that! It's a post-hoc explanation for what everyone knows. The rest of the punishments are the same:
1. Pain in childbirth.
2. Snakes have no legs.
3. Humans hate snakes.

All these are observations the author of Genesis 2-3 can see for himself. What he is offering is a naive mythical explanation of why these are so. A plain reading certainly doesn't justify the grand theory that all suffering comes from this. There are much better theories out there. Search for them.


However, if the days of creation are really geological ages of millions of years, then the gospel is undermined at its foundation as it puts death, disease, thorns and suffering before the fall of man.
You already have that. In Genesis 1:27 God gives to man all the herbs to eat. That means that man gets to kill those plants. Genesis 3:17-19 says nothing about disease or suffering. You made that up.

to accept anything other then the 7-24hour literal days as stated in Genesis would be to call God a liar.
To acept a 144 hour creation calls God a liar. Because it means that God lies to us on a massive scale in His Creation! You have taken text that is meant to be metaphor and tried to read it literally.

Also, look at Genesis 2:4. The word for "day" in Hebrew in Genesis 1 is "yom". You insist this is a 24 hour day. Well, in Genesis 2:4 it clearly states that God created the heavens and the earth "beyom". The prefix "be" in Hebrew means "in the". So, with "yom" a 24 hour day, "beyom" means "in the 24 hour day". After telling us that it took 6 days in Genesis 1, the Bible turns around and tells us that the heavens and the earth were created in a single day. Congratulations. You have made God a liar. God can't win in your scheme. God either lies in Genesis 1 or in Genesis 2:4.

The solution is to realize that the contradiction is there to tell you that neither creation story is to be read literally.

And if there was an adamic race, or if evolution took place over millions of years, then who was responsible for all the death and disease that apparently took place before Adam sinned? It would lead to the conclusion that God was to be blamed for all the suffering!

We would be calling God a wicked person... and a Liar!
And if God directly created each individual species, that makes God a sadistic deity because of all the cruel designs in nature. Rabbits have to eat their own feces because God is wicked and made them that way. Nothing in Genesis 3 is going to say that rabbits suffer because of what Adam and Eve did.

Creationism had created lots of theological problems, Poetry, in the period 1820-1860 because naturalists were really looking at the designs in plants and animals. Those designs make God be sadistic, stupid, and suffering from Alzeimer's. God isn't like that, but that is the God you get from special creation. Christians embraced evolution so enthusiastically because it got God out of this terrible position that creationism put Him into.

The idea that death and suffering for plants and animals was not in the world before Adam's disobedience is a man-made theory that is not supported by a plain reading of the text. It uses "information" that is simply made-up from outside the Bible.

In EVERY instance where someone does not accept the 'days' of creation to be ordinary days, it is because theyr have NOT allowed the scripture to speak to them in context, as the language requires for communication. They have been influenced by ideas from OUTSIDE scripture. thus they have set a precedent that could allow any word to be interpreted by the preconceived ideas of the person reading the words.
The irony meter just pegged. Since that is just what has happened with this "no death and suffering in the world before Adam" theory. It is made up from pre-conceived notions that are outside the Bible.

If we cannot take Genesis to be true, then we have no reason to believe that the resurrection, the virgin birth, or any other doctrine in the bible is true. Every doctrine in the bible either directly or indirectly draws its foundation from a literal interpretation of Genesis 1-11.
Nonsense. We have gone over this in detail a lot over the last 3 months in this forum. This is the old "domino theory". It doesn't hold. What you are saying is that Genesis 1-3 must be literally true. A major problem with this is that they contradict, which means both of them can't be literally true anyway.

There are different types of truth. There is scientific and historical truth and then there is theological truth. All the instances where NT writers use the Genesis 1-11 they are using the theological truths, not as science or history.

What is the basis of marriage? Why not divorce when the going gets tough? Why not polygamy or adultery? Why should a man join with a woman and not another man? - The answer is found in Genesis 1-11!
Theological, not scientific. The idea that men and women go together works just as well with God creating us thru evolution as it does if God zapped men and women into existence.

Why is there sin and suffering in the world? Why is there sin in the world?Again, the answer is found in Genesis 1-11!
Again, theological and not historical. The ideas of sin and suffering work much better in evolution than they do in a literal Genesis.

Why is there a need for the atonement? The sheding of blood? Why did Jesus have to die on the Cross? Again, the answer is in genesis 1-11.
That is simply not the case. Jesus died for your sins. And you commit them. Not because of Adam, but because of you.

If we can't accept genesis, then we have no basis for sin. No need for Jesus to die on the cross for our sins!
LOL! See? You just undercut your whole argument: "our sins". What was Adam's sin? Disobedience of God. We all disobey God. And not because Adam did. Because we do. Adam is an archetype that stands for each and every one of us. You can tell he is an archetype because, in Hebrew, Adam is the word for "dust". You have a man named "Dust". That's a big clue for anyone with eyes to see.

If there is no Genesis 1-11, then what basis is there for the sabbath?
What it was to begin with: God commanded it! Why does there need to be a basis other than this?

If there is no Genesis 1-11, then what does revelation mean, when it said that one day a new heaven and earth will be created where the curse of sin is no longer in effect?
Sin in the world does not depend on having a literal Adam. Since each of us sins, what this means is that there will be a new heaven and earth where people will not disobey God.
 
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Karl - Liberal Backslider

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poetry of love said:
Karl, what I said is true. There is no way one can reconcile the teachings of the bible with evolution or any other long age belief. My post was directed at the Christians who claim that there is no conflict between Christianity and evolution.
I'm glad Lucaspa had the patience to work through it. I was too tired. There is no conflict. The conflict is between Biblical literalism and a particular fundamentalist theology of salvation and Evolution, not between Christianity itself and evolution.

However, I believe the evidence is for a recent creation. And that the universe, was created in 6 literal days.
:wave:
You're entitled to that opinion. It is not shared by 99.9% of people versed in the facts, i.e. scientists.

Just a little background info... I used to be a thestic evolutionist. When I was confronted with the fact that evolution and the bible cannot both be true, I did an intense study on the scientific evidence for evolution, so that the Christian faith can be poven wrong.
Now you give me a problem. Later comments you make cause me to doubt exactly how intense your study was.

I went away with a totally different understanding. That the scientific evidence fits a young age of the earth as claimed by the Bible.
Which is why earth scientists all conclude differently, virtually to a man?

I found out that there was no sound evidence for evolution. (Dr. Lee Spetner, a research with John Hopkins University that studies the Signal-Noise relationship in DNA,[mutations], concluded that there is not a single point mutation in the world that increases the genetic complexity of an organism.)
But evolution does not depend upon single point mutations to increase genetic complexity. Duplications do that, amongst other things.

All known mutation(including beneficial ones such as antibiotic resistance in bacteria and sickle-cell anemia) are observed to be either neutral, or harmful to genetic information.
How can they be both "beneficial" and "neutral or harmful" at the same time? Your sentence indicates you think they are.

When Prof. Richard Darwkins was asked in an interview to name 1 example of a mutation that increases genetic complexity, he couldn't.
Do you have a reference to where and when this failure occured, and what the actual question and answer were?

There is no mechanism for an increase in genetic complexity. Mutations destroys information.
Nope. You are aware that we have observed a bacterium evolve the ability to digest nylon, which it couldn't do before?

Many think that if evolution is like a train that moves a metre everytime it mutates, it will soon reach the other side of the country given lots of time.

In reality however, the train is moving in the opposite direction. If I can use a term to discribe mutations, it would be microDEVOLUTION. Not micro evolution.
Natural Selection acts as a concentrator of beneficial mutations. Lets take a load of dice - 50. Now, if I keep throwing them, how long until they all show a six at the same time? A very long time - effectively never.

But suppose each time I keep the ones that show a six, and rethrow the others? I think you'll find I have 50 sixes very, very quickly.

This is how selection acts to concentrate the beneficial mutations. We've demonstrated they do occur - the nylon eating bacterium is exhibit A - and this is how they are concentrated in the population.

There is no evidence for evolution. I stand by this claim.
Then you have not read the other threads in this forum, where retro-viral insertions and human chromosome 2 are discussed. Why are these not evidence for evolution? To them I would add the twin-nested hierarchy, the therapsid series, the Rhipidistian -> Amphibian transitional series in the rocks, and the pattern of Cyt C similarity just off the top of my head. Why are these not evidence? As you have looked intensely into the subject, I am sure you are familiar with all these lines of evidence.

We are not formed by chance! We were created by a God
Created by chance and created by God are not contradictions. No need to set them up in opposition to one another.

as stated in the bible in 7 literal days.
Or in one literal day in Genesis 2. Which to pick, and why?
 
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lucaspa said:
Notice the bolded parts. Yes, the writers meant 24 hour days, but did not mean for us to take creation a literally occuring in 24 hours. The 24 hours is to provide an unneeded justification for the Sabbath. It is a theological message, not a historical one.

Certainly not what you wrote. This is the man-made theory that all suffering came into existence. But the Genesis 3:17-20 that you quoted does not support the theory. We get a very limited punishment. All you get from that is that farming is hard. Well, DUH! Any farmer can tell you that! It's a post-hoc explanation for what everyone knows. The rest of the punishments are the same:
1. Pain in childbirth.
2. Snakes have no legs.
3. Humans hate snakes.

All these are observations the author of Genesis 2-3 can see for himself. What he is offering is a naive mythical explanation of why these are so. A plain reading certainly doesn't justify the grand theory that all suffering comes from this. There are much better theories out there. Search for them.


You already have that. In Genesis 1:27 God gives to man all the herbs to eat. That means that man gets to kill those plants. Genesis 3:17-19 says nothing about disease or suffering. You made that up.


To accept a 144 hour creation calls God a liar. Because it means that God lies to us on a massive scale in His Creation! You have taken text that is meant to be metaphor and tried to read it literally.

Also, look at Genesis 2:4. The word for "day" in Hebrew in Genesis 1 is "yom". You insist this is a 24 hour day. Well, in Genesis 2:4 it clearly states that God created the heavens and the earth "beyom". The prefix "be" in Hebrew means "in the". So, with "yom" a 24 hour day, "beyom" means "in the 24 hour day". After telling us that it took 6 days in Genesis 1, the Bible turns around and tells us that the heavens and the earth were created in a single day. Congratulations. You have made God a liar. God can't win in your scheme. God either lies in Genesis 1 or in Genesis 2:4.




The solution is to realize that the contradiction is there to tell you that neither creation story is to be read literally.


And if God directly created each individual species, that makes God a sadistic deity because of all the cruel designs in nature. Rabbits have to eat their own feces because God is wicked and made them that way. Nothing in Genesis 3 is going to say that rabbits suffer because of what Adam and Eve did.




Creationism had created lots of theological problems, Poetry, in the period 1820-1860 because naturalists were really looking at the designs in plants and animals. Those designs make God be sadistic, stupid, and suffering from Alzeimer's. God isn't like that, but that is the God you get from special creation. Christians embraced evolution so enthusiastically because it got God out of this terrible position that creationism put Him into.

The idea that death and suffering for plants and animals was not in the world before Adam's disobedience is a man-made theory that is not supported by a plain reading of the text. It uses "information" that is simply made-up from outside the Bible.


The irony meter just pegged. Since that is just what has happened with this "no death and suffering in the world before Adam" theory. It is made up from pre-conceived notions that are outside the Bible.


Nonsense. We have gone over this in detail a lot over the last 3 months in this forum. This is the old "domino theory". It doesn't hold. What you are saying is that Genesis 1-3 must be literally true. A major problem with this is that they contradict, which means both of them can't be literally true anyway.

There are different types of truth. There is scientific and historical truth and then there is theological truth. All the instances where NT writers use the Genesis 1-11 they are using the theological truths, not as science or history.


Theological, not scientific. The idea that men and women go together works just as well with God creating us thru evolution as it does if God zapped men and women into existence.


Again, theological and not historical. The ideas of sin and suffering work much better in evolution than they do in a literal Genesis.


That is simply not the case. Jesus died for your sins. And you commit them. Not because of Adam, but because of you.




LOL! See? You just undercut your whole argument: "our sins". What was Adam's sin? Disobedience of God. We all disobey God. And not because Adam did. Because we do. Adam is an archetype that stands for each and every one of us. You can tell he is an archetype because, in Hebrew, Adam is the word for "dust". You have a man named "Dust". That's a big clue for anyone with eyes to see.


What it was to begin with: God commanded it! Why does there need to be a basis other than this?


Sin in the world does not depend on having a literal Adam. Since each of us sins, what this means is that there will be a new heaven and earth where people will not disobey God.

The writer meant 24 hours days, but did not mean for us to take a creation literally? HUH?!!! You're contridicting yourself. Like I said. If it is not a hostorical message, there is no basis for the rest of the scripture. Every other theological doctrine has no foundations.

You're calling it a man-made theory without explaining the implications it would have when the bible talks about the new heaven and new earth... and many other passages. You have not explained the doctrines involved in compromising on a literal interpretation of Genesis.Even a non-christian reading the post would agree with my points in my previous post that evolution and christianity cannot go together.

The world will one day be restored(acts 3:21) to a state in which, once again, there will be no violence and death involving animals. Whether Isaiah 11:6-9 is taken to refer to a millennial kingdom or a new earth, the poin is the same. Lambs, wolves, leopards, children, bears, calves and snakes will all dwell together peacefully. Lions will once again be plant-eaters. Clearly, this vision of future bliss reflects the former paradise lost through sin.

The bible makes a clear distinction between the status of plants and animals. People and animals are described in Genesis as having, or being, nephesh(Hebrew) - see Genesis 1:20,21,24 where nephesh chayyah is translated 'living creatures', and Genesis 2:7 where Adam became a 'living soul'(Nephesh Chayyah). Nephesh conveys the basic idea of a 'breathing creature'. It is also used widely in the Old testament, in combination with other words, to convey ideas of emotions, feelings, etc. Nephesh refers to life with a certain level of consciousness. Plants do not have nephesh, and so Adam eating a carrot did not involve death in the Biblical sense.


Where Beyom is concerned, this comes from a misunderstanding that Genesis 2 is a seperate account from genesis 1. Actually, Genesis 2 is not a different account of creation. It is a more detailed account of day 6 of creation. Chapter 1 is an overview of the whole creation; Chpt 2 gives details surrounding the creation of the garden, the 1st man, and his activites on day 6.

This argument of beyom must be rejected because in this verse we find Yom used with the preposition ‘in’ (beyom in Hebrew, which in many translations is appropriately rendered as ‘when,’ rather than as ‘in the day that’). So in Genesis 2:4 beyom refers to the whole Creation Week. On the other hand, in Genesis 1 we find Yom used with a number and with evening and morning, referring to literal days. These are two very different uses of Yom See a similar literal and non-literal use of Yom in Numbers 7:10-84, where beyom appears in v. 10 and v. 84 referring to the whole 12 days of sacrifice and then at v. 12, 18, 24, 30, etc., Yom is used with a number referring to each literal day of sacrifice. No young-Earther says that Yom always means a literal day. But the context always makes it clear when it is literal and the few times when it is figurative of a longer (generally) indefinite period of time. Genesis 1 uses literal Yom; Genesis 2:4 uses the non-literal beyom.


As I've have shown above, there is no contradiction in the creation account.

Unlike what you said, it is common knowledge that God didn't have to create every single specie. For example, the lion and the tiger probably came from a single parent in the past(They can mate to produce Tions and Ligers). Zebra, horses, etc can hybridize. The Chihuahua and Doberman probably came from a common ancestor in the past. These speciation comes from the sheiving and diluting of the gene pool as a result from either natural selection or artificial selection. The gene pool is diluted. Not increased. The bible is consistent in that each animal produces after its own kind. I.E. a dog will never become a monkey or some other animal. God didn't have to create every specie. He created some animals which then produced according to theis kinds.

As for rabbit! This is an incredible proposition. One of the most successful species on earth would have to be the rabbit! The rabbit's mode of existence is obviously very efficient (what about the saying ‘they breed like rabbits’?). Just because eating feces may be abhorrent to humans, does not mean it is inefficient for the rabbit! Indeed rabbits have a special pouch called the cecum, containing bacteria, at the beginning of the large intestine. These bacteria aid digestion, just as bacteria in the rumen of cattle and sheep aid digestion. The rabbit produces two types of fecal pellet, a hard one and a special soft one coming from the cecum. It is only the latter which is eaten to enrich the diet with the nutrients produced by the bacteria in the cecum. In other words, this ability of rabbits is part of their design; it is not something they have learnt to do because they have ‘digestive systems which function so poorly’. It is part of the variety of design which speaks of creation, not evolution.

The red and tooth in nature was a result of the curse. Go to Answers In Genesis website and search for this article titled," How did bad things come about?". I have less then 15 posts so I can't attach a link to the page from here.

There is no contradiction within Genesis 1-3. Chpter 2 is not a different account of creation - it is a more detailed account of the 6th day of creation. The Jews recognise this.

Where on earth in the bible did it mention that Genesis was just a theological truth and not historical and scientific truth. the bible is not meant to be a scientific book, but everywhere it touches on science, it has been incredibility accurate. It is clear that it was meant to be read literally and not theologically.

Quoting you: "The idea that men and women go together works just as well with God creating us thru evolution as it does if God zapped men and women into existence. "

This is not true. It is clear theologically that the theory of evolution is not supported by the bible in anyway. Creation is.

Quoting you again: "That is simply not the case. Jesus died for your sins. And you commit them. Not because of Adam, but because of you. "

Romans 5:12 - 21: Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned-- for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Jesus died for us! You're right! But he had to die for us because he had to atone for the Sin that had spreaded throughout Adam's line to all people. If we take Adam out of the picture, we would be making a joke of the atonement as there would be no Jesus' death.

Enough Said!
 
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Karl - Liberal Backslider said:
I'm glad Lucaspa had the patience to work through it. I was too tired. There is no conflict. The conflict is between Biblical literalism and a particular fundamentalist theology of salvation and Evolution, not between Christianity itself and evolution.

You're entitled to that opinion. It is not shared by 99.9% of people versed in the facts, i.e. scientists.

Now you give me a problem. Later comments you make cause me to doubt exactly how intense your study was.

Which is why earth scientists all conclude differently, virtually to a man?

But evolution does not depend upon single point mutations to increase genetic complexity. Duplications do that,

amongst other things.

How can they be both "beneficial" and "neutral or harmful" at the same time? Your sentence indicates you think they are.

Do you have a reference to where and when this failure occured, and what the actual question and answer were?

Nope. You are aware that we have observed a bacterium evolve the ability to digest nylon, which it couldn't do before?

Natural Selection acts as a concentrator of beneficial mutations. Lets take a load of dice - 50. Now, if I keep throwing them, how long until they all show a six at the same time? A very long time - effectively never.

But suppose each time I keep the ones that show a six, and rethrow the others? I think you'll find I have 50 sixes very, very quickly.

This is how selection acts to concentrate the beneficial mutations. We've demonstrated they do occur - the nylon eating bacterium is exhibit A - and this is how they are concentrated in the population.

Then you have not read the other threads in this forum, where retro-viral insertions and human chromosome 2 are discussed. Why are these not evidence for evolution? To them I would add the twin-nested hierarchy, the therapsid series, the Rhipidistian -> Amphibian transitional series in the rocks, and the pattern of Cyt C similarity just off the top of my head. Why are these not evidence? As you have looked intensely into the subject, I am sure you are familiar with all these lines of evidence.


Created by chance and created by God are not contradictions. No need to set them up in opposition to one another.


Or in one literal day in Genesis 2. Which to pick, and why?

Duplication or any mutation does not increase the genetic complexity of an organism - be it polymorphism, polyploid, etc etc. Every example has failed to show an increase in genetic complexity.

I do not claim a mutation can be both harmful and useful at the same time. What I mean is that even a "lost" mutation can be beneficial at times.

So, how can an information loss confer resistance? Here are some observed mechanisms:

A pump in the cell wall takes in the antibiotic. A mutation disabling this pump will prevent the bacterium pumping in its own executioner. But in the wild, a bacterium with a disabled pump will be less fit than other bacteria because the pump also brings nutrients, etc., into the cell.

A control gene regulates the production of an enzyme that destroys the antibiotic, e.g. penicillinase which destroys penicillin. A mutation disabling this gene destroys the regulation of the production, so far more enzyme is produced. Such a bacterium can cope with more antibiotic than others can, but in the wild, it would be less fit than normal because it’s wasting valuable resources producing more enzyme than is needed.

An enzyme is highly specialized to break down one specific type of chemical very well, and hardly affect other chemicals. A mutation could reduce its specificity, i.e. it no longer does its main job so well, and affects other chemicals to some extent too. Normally, a biological system with such a mutation would not function as well, and reduced specificity is reduced information by definition. But sometimes the other chemicals affected happen to be antibiotics, so this type of mutation confers resistance. read the book Not by Chance for more info on this.

The antibiotic streptomycin works by attaching onto a precisely matching site on the surface of a bacterium’s ribosome, where decoding of DNA information to proteins occurs. When the streptomycin attaches, it stops this machinery from producing the right proteins, and the bacterium dies. Resistance to the drug can be caused by an information-losing mutation that degrades the surface of a bacterium’s ribosome, which reduces the binding ability of the drug to the ribosome, preventing it from ruining the protein manufacturing machinery

These principles should be enough to demonstrate that these latest claims about bacteria ‘evolving’ resistance are not a threat to Biblical creation. Despite all this, many evolutionist crow about antibiotic resistance as an amazing ‘prediction’ of evolution. Even aside from the above points, this is revisionist history. Historically, antibiotic resistance first took the medical profession by surprise—even as late as 1969, experts stated that ‘infectious diseases were a thing of the past’. I.e. antibiotic resistance was hardly a ‘prediction’ of evolution, but is really a phenomenon explained ‘after the fact’ by evolutionary language. But as shown, the Biblical Creation/Fall model explains it better.

Do you have a reference to where and when this failure occured, and what the actual question and answer were? This is dealt with in detail in the book "Not by Chance" by Dr. Lee Spetner. Look it up for more info. The failure of mutations to increases complex genetic information is a major theme in his book.

Quote: Nope. You are aware that we have observed a bacterium evolve the ability to digest nylon, which it couldn't do before?

I am. I know what is natural selection and I know my genetics. In fact, if you have been up to date, you would have read the recent issue of TJ(former technical journal), there is a complete and detailed refutation of the Nylon issue. p.3, TJ Vol 17(3),2003 by Dr. Don Batten citing 11 secular sources. Perhaps you might want to get hold of that article or subscribe to the Journal.

I have not read the other thread in the post, but yes... I've read articles on those issues such as Cytochrome C and also why it's a complete failure in explaining evolution. I'll catch up with the rest of the forum soon and post a reply.

Got ot Sleep. It's 1.35am here. Will continue my reply tomorrow.
Cheers! :sleep:
 
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On the question of the Rhipidistian -> Amphibian transitional series in the rocks.

For the sake of arguement, I've only quoted evolutionists here and not creationists.

Are these evolutionist scientists also guilty of having “unreasonable expectations”?

“the Cambrian strata of rocks...are the oldest in which we find most of the major invertebrate groups. And we find many of them already in an advanced state of evolution, the very first time they appear. It is as though they were just planted there, without any evolutionary history.”
— Dawkins, Richard, The Blind Watchmaker (New York: W. W. Norton, 1987) p. 229

“Unfortunately not a single specimen of an appropriate reptilian ancestor is known prior to the appearance of true reptiles. The absence of such ancestral forms leaves many problems of the amphibian-reptilian transition unanswered.”
— Carroll, Lewis L., “Problems of the Origin of Reptiles,” Biological Reviews of the Cambridge Philosophical Society, vol. 44 (1969). p. 393

“We have no intermediate fossils between rhipidistian fish and early amphibians”
— Carroll, Robert L., Vertebrate Paleontology and Evolution (New York: W. H. Freeman and Co., 1988), p. 138

“No specific derived characters have been demonstrated as being uniquely shared between early primates and the early members of any other order.”
— Carroll, Robert L., Vertebrate Paleontology and Evolution (New York: W. H. Freeman and Co., 1988), p. 467

“We still lack any precise information concerning the presumed aquatic ancestors from which land plants evolved... ”
— Gensel, Patricia G., and Henry N. Andrews, “The Evolution of Early Land Plants,” American Scientist, vol. 75 (Sept/Oct 1987), p. 481.

“There is no need to apologize any longer for the poverty of the fossil record. In some ways it has become almost unmanageably rich, and discovery is out-pacing integration... The fossil record nevertheless continues to be composed mainly of gaps.”
— George, T. Neville, “Fossils in Evolutionary Perspective,” Science Progress, vol. 48 (January 1960). p.1-3

“In spite of the immense amount of the paleontological material and the existence of long series of intact stratigraphic sequences with perfect records for the lower categories, transitions between the higher categories are missing”
— Goldschmidt, Richard B., “Evolution, As Viewed by One Geneticist,” American Scientist, vol. 40 (January 1952), p. 98

“Instead of finding the gradual unfolding of life, what geologists of Darwin’s time, and geologists of the present day actually find is a highly uneven or jerky record; that is, species appear in the sequence very suddenly, show little or no change during their existence in the record, then abruptly go out of the record. and it is not always clear, in fact it’s rarely clear, that the descendants were actually better adapted than their predecessors. In other words, biological improvement is hard to find.”
— Raup, David M., “Conflicts Between Darwin and Paleontology,” Bulletin, Field Museum of Natural History, vol. 50 (January 1979), pp. 23

“There are too many places where the fossil record is complete enough that we ought to see transitions occurring. Even in these cases we see very few good examples of higher taxa evolving by gradual change. There may be a few examples here and there, but by and large we just don’t see the steps.”
— Stanley, Steven M., “Resetting the Evolutionary Timetable,” interview by Neil A. Campbell, Bioscience, vol. 36 (December 1986), p. 725

“I regard the failure to find a clear ‘vector of progress’ in life’s history as the most puzzling fact of the fossil record.” - Gould, Stephen Jay, “The Ediacaran Experiment,” Natural History, vol. 93 (February 1984), p. 23.
 
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On Cytochrome C and molecular evolution, in the book, Evolution: A Theory in Crisis by Michael Denton, he showed that the amino acid sequences in cytochrome C from species spanning the entire biological world do not support the theory of progressive evolution of one species into another.

The following is adapted from a paper written by Clete Knaub and Gary Parker IMPACT No. 114 December 1982.

When the evolutionary relationship comparison is followed to produce a phylogenic tree, evolutionist are often embarassed by the results obtained. In the case of Cytochrome C, it has been shown that the turtle is more closely related to the birds that to its fellow reptile, the snake. Furthermore, the chicken is grouped with the penguin rather than the duck, and man and ape separate from the main mammalian branch before the supposedly less advanced marsupial mammal, the kangaroo.

Ayala, F., "The Mechanisms of Evolution." Scientific American, V. 239, No. 3,1978, p. 56.

The cytochrome c tree pictured in books and magazines is only one of forty trees generated by computer analysis of the data—the tree "corrected" for closest fit to the "known phylogeny" (i.e., the presumed evolutionary history)
Certainly such a tree cannot be claimed as independent confirmation of evolution.

Documentation for this is found :
Fitch, W., and E. Margoliash, loc. cit., p. 281.

Amino acid sequence data are actually heavily "massaged" even before they are used to construct these evolutionary trees. Since it is mutational changes in DNA that are presumed to produce, ultimately, the differences in amino acid sequences, estimates of silent mutations, one vs. two step changes in codons, several changes at one position, and estimates for other such corrections must be made. When the raw data are actually antigen-antibody tests or DNA hybridization, as often is the case, uncertainty regarding even amino acid differences, let alone amino acid changes, becomes considerable.
The computer must be told in advance to generate only ancestral sequences that allow for further ancestral sequences, otherwise, as we observed in some of our analyses, intermediate sequences are generated that break the presumed evolutionary chain.

Fitch, W., Molecular Evolution, (F. Ayala, editor), Sinauer Associates, 1976, p. 160.

Dayhoff, M., "Atlas of Protein Sequence and Structure," V. 5, No. 3, 1978, p. 345.

Yet in spite of these problems, some evolutionist predicted that a more accurate molecular phylogenetic tree for species would be obtained when "additional proteins and nucleic acids have been determined."

This claim was published in Ayala, F., loc. cit., p. 68.

However, since he made that claim, quite the opposite has taken place. The more protein sequences determined, the less likely the combined tree represents the accepted classical evolutionary tree. Workers with sequences for LH (luteinizing hormones) were "forced" to postulate that amphibians evolved directly into mammals, instead, of first into reptiles.

Vincent Demoulin said that the composite tree including data from many different kinds of cytochromes simply "encompasses all the weaknesses of the individual trees.

Reviewing recent data before a prestigious group at the American Museum Nov. 5, 1981, Colin Patterson, himself an evolutionist, stated that if only the data of molecular homology were considered, then descent from common ancestry, the foundational concept of evolution, was "precisely falsified

King, J., and R. Millar, "Heterogeneity of Vertebrate Luteinizing Hormone-Releasing Hormone," Science, V. 206, 1979, p. 67.

Demoulin, V., "Protein and Nucleic Acid Sequence Data and Phylogeny." Science, V. 205, 1979, p. 1036.

Patterson, C., as quoted by Sunderland, L. and G. Parker, "Evolution? Prominent Scientist Reconsiders." Impact No. 108, Institute for Creation Research, 1982.

Data from molecular homology fails to support evolution. Yet, it is surprising that molecular homology is often used as an evolutionary clock. That is, to try to determine the rates at which mutations become fixed in a population. This is done in two basic steps. Step one is to construct a phylogenetic evolutionary tree based on protein homologies. Step two is to determine, from the fossil evidence, when the species diverged from each other. Suppose that the man and mouse in our previous example shared a common ancestor twenty million years ago by evolutionary reckoning. That would be five amino acid differences in twenty million years, or one amino acid changing "accepted point mutation" (PAM) per four million years. If that rate is relatively constant for most proteins, then the calculation can be "reversed" to determine times of divergence from measured (and "massaged") amino acid sequence differences.

Like the tree construction, molecular clocking appears to be a simple and straightforward use of protein differences. However, like the tree construction, the clocking procedure is plagued with tons of problems. For example, the "ticking" of the clock is invisible—it is presumed "accepted point mutations" or PAMS, which have never been observed, not measured mutation rates. Secondly, the assumption that rates of evolution should be approximately the same for most proteins is considered absurd and even anti-evolutionary by the classic school of evolutionary thought, the selectionists, and the extreme variability of estimated rates seem to bear out their concern. Speaking of an average rate is somewhat like saying that on the average all animals have the same temperature, a statistical deception that communicates what Patterson might call "anti-knowledge." Third, we have already seen how imperfect are the evolutionary trees constructed on the basis of molecular homology. Finally, evolutionists have at last been forced to admit publicly that fossil evidence contains virtually no transitional forms and that, instead, it often suggests the simultaneous, explosive appearance of diverse types. Therefore, it is at least nonsense to try to determine when species diverged from each other, and it may be worse, since types widely different from each other seem to have diverged at essentially the same time (from unknown ancestors).

In view of all these difficulties, it is not surprising that, in a major review of molecular clocks, Walter Fitch dismissed discussion of the clock dependent on paleontological dates, since, as he put it, any discrepancy could easily be due to an error in the dating. He then turned to a "calibration-free" test of the clock, but had to admit that no satisfactory statistical test of the clock had yet been done.

All these problems in principle crystallize as problems in practice when the clock is applied to the snake/bird/turtle example. Fitch points out, that a relative clock distance of 55 between snake and turtle and only 11 between bird and turtle (making the two reptiles much less related than the bird/turtle pair) is, of course, a considerable distortion of our current biological viewpoint." Fitch's explanation for this conflict between fact and evolutionary theory should jolt evolutionists and scientists alike: " … the truth really is that either one or more of the sequences is incorrect, that our current view of amniote phylogeny [land animal evolution] is incorrect, or both." Earlier, Fitch had pointed out a third general source of error: the divergence times could be in error. Sadly, Fitch does not acknowledge a fourth source of error, namely, failure of the molecular clock itself. Presenting evidence that would impress a skeptic only as an "escape from reason," Fitch clings to the clock hypothesis, even after showing that the springs and cogs of the mechanism are scattered and broken.

Fitch, W., loc. cit., p. 174.

There is so much "slop" in both the data and its processing in the field of molecular homology that Colin Patterson, senior paleontologist at the British Museum, spoke of it as "anti-knowledge" generating "anti-theory," apparently meaning a false assessment of the facts inducing the false concept that evolutionary common ancestry offers some sort of explanation for the data (which, as he points out, has already been "massaged with evolutionary theory").In fact, after pointing out that the current evolutionary explanation for molecular homology was "precisely falsified," he went on to consider a creationist explanation for the data.

Patterson, C., loc. cit.

Cytochrome C and molecular evolution does not prove evolution! Cheers! :|
 
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This article is adapted from TJ 17(1), 2003. It shows that Humans and Chimps are not as identical in their chromosomes as previously though.

A recent report by the National Academy of Sciences suggests that the common value of >98% similarity of DNA between chimp and humans is incorrect. Roy Britten, author of the study, puts the figure at about 95% when insertions and deletions are included. However, there is more that meets the eyes then most people realise. :p

Archidiacono, N., Storlazzi, C.T., Spalluto, C., Ricco, A.S., Marzella, R., Rocchi, M. 1998. ‘Evolution of chromosome Y in primates.’ Chromosoma 107:241-246.

The >98.5% similarity commonly used has been misleading because it depends on what is being compared. There are a number of significant differences that are difficult to quantify. The review by Gagneux and Varkidescribed resulted in a list of genetic differences between humans and the great apes. The differences include ‘cytogenetic differences, differences in the type and number of repetitive genomic DNA and transposable elements, abundance and distribution of endogenous retroviruses, the presence and extent of allelic polymorphisms, specific gene inactivation events, gene sequence differences, gene duplications, single nucleotide polymorphisms, gene expression differences, and messenger RNA splicing variations.’

Gagneux, P. and Varki, A. 2001. ‘Genetic differences between humans and great apes.’ Mol Phylogenet Evol 18:2-13.

Specific examples of these differences include:

1) Humans have 23 pairs of chromosomes while chimpanzees have 24. Evolutionary scientists believe that one of the human chromosomes has been formed through the fusion of two small chromosomes in the chimp instead of an intrinsic difference resulting from a separate creation.

2) At the end of each chromosome is a string of repeating DNA sequences called a telomere. Chimpanzees and other apes have about 23 kilobases (a kilobase is 1,000 base pairs of DNA) of repeats. Humans are unique among primates with much shorter telomeres only 10 kilobases long.

Britten, R.J. 2002. ‘Divergence between samples of chimpanzee and human DNA sequences is 5% counting indels.’ Proceedings National Academy Science 99:13633-13635

3) While 18 pairs of chromosomes are ‘virtually identical’, chromosomes 4, 9 and 12 show evidence of being ‘remodeled.’ In other words, the genes and markers on these chromosomes are not in the same order in the human and chimpanzee. Instead of ‘being remodeled’ as the evolutionists suggest, these could, logically, also be intrinsic differences because of a separate creation.

Gibbons, A. 1998. ‘Which of our genes make us human?’ Science 281:1432-1434.

4) The Y chromosome in particular is of a different size and has many markers that do not line up between the human and chimpanzee

Archidiacono, N., Storlazzi, C.T., Spalluto, C., Ricco, A.S., Marzella, R., Rocchi, M. 1998. ‘Evolution of chromosome Y in primates.’ Chromosoma 107:241-246.

5) Scientists have prepared a human-chimpanzee comparative clone map of chromosome 21 in particular. They observed ‘large, non-random regions of difference between the two genomes.’ They found a number of regions that ‘might correspond to insertions that are specific to the human lineage.’

Fujiyama, A., Watanabe, H., Toyoda, A., Taylor, T.D., Itoh, T., Tsai, S.F., Park, H.S., Yaspo, M.L., Lehrach, H., Chen, Z., Fu, G., Saitou, N., Osoegawa, K., de Jong, P.J., Suto, Y., Hattori, M., and Sakaki, Y. 2002. ‘Construction and analysis of a Human-Chimpanzee Comparative Clone Map.’ Science 295:131-134

6) The size of the chimpanzee genome is 10% greater than the size of the human genome.

Marks, J. 2000. ‘98% alike? (What our similarity to apes tells us about our understanding of genetics.)’ Chronicle of Higher Education May 12, 2000, B7.

These differences are usually not included in calculations of percent DNA similarity when counted by evolutionists.

In one of the most extensive studies comparing human and chimp DNA, the researchers compared >19.8 million bases. While this sounds like a lot, it still represents slightly less than 1% of the genome. They calculated a mean identity of 98.77% or 1.23% differences. However, this, like other studies only considered substitutions and did not take insertions or deletions into account as the new study by Britten did. A nucleotide substitution is a mutation where one base (A, G, C, or T) is replaced with another. An insertion or deletion (indel) is found where there are nucleotides missing when two sequences are compared.

Fujiyama, A., Watanabe, H., Toyoda, A., Taylor, T.D., Itoh, T., Tsai, S.F., Park, H.S., Yaspo, M.L., Lehrach, H., Chen, Z., Fu, G., Saitou, N., Osoegawa, K., de Jong, P.J., Suto, Y., Hattori, M., and Sakaki, Y. 2002. ‘Construction and analysis of a Human-Chimpanzee Comparative Clone Map.’ Science 295:131-134.

The Britten study involved examining 779 kilobase pairs to highlight the differences between chimpanzees and humans. He found that 1.4% of the bases had been substituted, which was in agreement with previous studies (98.6% similarity). However, he found a much larger number of indels. Most of these were only 1 to 4 nucleotides in length, although there were a few that were > 1000 base pairs long. Surprisingly, the indels added an additional 3.4 % of base pairs that were different.

Britten, R.J. 2002. ‘Divergence between samples of chimpanzee and human DNA sequences is 5% counting indels.’ Proceedings National Academy Science 99:13633-13635.

While previous studies have focused on base substitutions, the researchers have missed one of the greatest contribution to the genetic differences between chimps and humans. Missing nucleotides from one or the other appear to account for more than twice the number of substituted nucleotides. Although the number of substitutions is about ten times higher than the number of indels, the number of nucleotides involved in indels is greater. These indels were reported to be equally represented in the chimp and human sequences. Therefore, the insertions or deletions were not occurring only in the chimp or only in the human and could also be interpreted as intrinsic differences.

The similarity of chimpanzee and human DNA has now been reduced from >98.5% to ~95%. Moreover, using percentages hides an important fact. If 5% of the DNA is different, this amounts to 150,000,000 DNA base pairs that are different between them!

many studies have demonstrated a remarkable similarity in the nuclear DNA and mtDNA among modern humans. In fact, the DNA sequences for all people are so similar that scientists generally conclude that there is a ‘recent single origin for modern humans, with general replacement of archaic populations.’

Knight, A., Batzer, M.A., Stoneking, M., Tiwari, H.K., Scheer, W.D., Herrera, R.J., and Deninger, P.L. 1996. ‘DNA sequences of Alu elements indicate a recent replacement of the human autosomal genetic complement.’ Proc. Natl Acad Sci USA 93:4360-4364.

To be fair, the estimates for a date of a ‘most recent common ancestor’ (MRCA) by evolutionists has this ‘recent single origin’ about 100,000-200,000 years ago, which is not recent by creationist standards. These estimates have been based on comparisons with chimpanzees and the assumption of a chimp/human common ancestor approximately 5 million years ago. In contrast, studies that have used pedigrees or generational mtDNA comparisons have yielded a much more recent MRCA—even 6,500 years!

Heyer, E., Zietkeiwicz, E., Rochowski, A., Yotova, V., Puymirat, J., and Labuda D. 2001. ‘Phylogenetic and familial estimates of mitochondrial substitution rates: study of control region mutation in deep-rooting pedigrees.’ Am J Hum Genet 69:1113-1126.

Parsons T.J., Muniec, D.S., Sullivan, K., Woodyatt, N., Alliston-Greiner, R., Wilson, M.R., Berry, D.L., Holland, K.A., Weedn, V.W., Gill, P., and M.M. Holland. 1997. A high observed substitution rate in the human mitochondrial DNA control region. Nat. Genet. 15:363-368.

Sigurgardottir, S., Helgason, A., Gulcher, J.R., Stefansson, K., and Donnelly P. 2000. ‘The mutation rate in the human mtDNA control region.’ Am J Hum Genet 66:1599-1609


Research on observable generational mutation events leads to a more recent common ancestor for humans than phylogenetic estimates that assume a relationship with chimpanzees. Mutational hotspots are believed to account for this difference. However, in both cases, they are relying on uniformitarian principles—that rates measured in the present can be used to extrapolate the timing of events in the distant past.

Heyer, E., Zietkeiwicz, E., Rochowski, A., Yotova, V., Puymirat, J., and Labuda D. 2001. ‘Phylogenetic and familial estimates of mitochondrial substitution rates: study of control region mutation in deep-rooting pedigrees.’ Am J Hum Genet 69:1113-1126.

The above examples demonstrate that the conclusions of scientific investigations can be different depending on how the study is done. Humans and chimps can have 95% or >98.5% similar DNA depending on which nucleotides are counted and which are excluded. Modern humans can have a single recent ancestor <10,000 or 100,000-200,000 years ago depending on whether a relationship with chimpanzees is assumed and which types of mutations are considered.
 
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Karl - Liberal Backslider

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Haven't you been busy?

Unfortunately my home internet connection is down so I can't respond in detail.

However, I'd like to pick on a couple of points.

Cytochrome C.

Despite what Denton says, evolution expects that the Cyt. C of crocodiles will be closer to that of birds than it is to turtles or snakes, given the dinosaur (or near dinosaur, it doesn't matter in this case) ancestry of birds. Crocs are close cousins of the dinosaurs, and therefore pretty close cousins of birds.

Cyt C similarity indicates the recentness of the last common ancestor. And the last common ancestor of crocodiles and birds is more recent than the last common ancestor of crocodiles and turtles. Denton's - and your - mistake is to assume that the group we currently define as "Reptiles" are monophyletic. They are not. Cladistically, we should consider the birds and the mammals to be sub-classes of Reptilia, in order to make the reptiles truly monophyletic. But, similarly, we'd then have to consider the Reptiles to be a sub-class of Amphibia, and Amphibia a sub-class of the fishes, and so on and so forth. This is not how we do it.

Moving on to your nice collection of quotes about transitionals, why not actually take a look at the fossils I mentioned, rather than rely on quotes that may have been accurate twenty or forty years ago, but are no longer owing to more recent discoveries? The pattern of expected transitionals eventually turning up when we have a clue where to look (Acanthostega and Ambulocetus are both good examples of this) is a very strong vindication of evolutionary theory.
 
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Buck72

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lucaspa said:
"Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution." Theodosius Dobzhansky.

That's one major benefit to science. Evolution is the unifying idea that makes sense of biology.

In terms of practical benefit, none of the advances in the medical sciences in the last 50 years could have happened without evolution. It is all based on common ancestry being true.
First off, it is good to be back at CF, I've been out of the country for awhile. I'm also happy to see this post has taken off again.

I must ask Lucaspa, what kind of advances do we have that can trace evolution as their theoretical benefactor, and why would these advances would have been stymied by a purely creationist perspective? Why is it that the Bible cannot be seen by so many as all-inclusive to the point that scientific finds are amalgumated into Biblical context without the need for these finds to be readjusted to fit into evolutionary dogma?

Without the evolutionary template to encapsulate the latest scientific theory within, we have a greater capacity for allowing the science to be self-determining, and thus easily graft itself into the purely creationist arena, with LESS interference than required to force it into the evolutionary arena.

The bias of most scientists that evolution is THE answer, obfuscates the potential to find truth in science. If people wish to be objective in science, recognize that evolution is purely theoretical, not empirical. Therefore, why force a square peg into a round hole everytime you find a bone in the dirt?

By the way, the Creation took six days because God said it did. Carl Sagan is wrong...and he's dead.

All the advances in understanding ecology and the impact of humans on the environment stem from evolution and the interactions of organisms with each other -- the "Struggle for Existence" and interdependence of organisms that Darwin highlighted.
The environment impacts itself with greater veracity than humans do. An example is the supposed "greenhouse gasses" that humans have unleashed upon the fragile ecosystem, yet one volcanic eruption like Mt Pinatubo, or Mt Etna, causes 10,000 times the atmospheric damage than 1,000 years of CFC producing industrialization (at 21st Century rates) can possibly create.

In the world of design, natural selection is routinely used by humans to get designs that are too tough for them. Search the web for genetic algorithms. All humans do here is set up the environment. Natural selection does the designing.
What is "natural selection"? That is a Darwinian holdback term for "God". God is the Maestro behind the invisible curtain, Darwin was a confused theology student that provided little more to real science than an extension from Charles Lyell's godless rants to dislodge God from His creation, so that man can start making the decisions for a change.

As far as man's role in the earth, He provides the guidance and instruction for man in the first chapter of Genesis:

Gen 1:28 God blessed them; and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth."

Gen 1:29 Then God said, "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you;

Gen 1:30 and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to every thing that moves on the earth which has life, I have given every green plant for food"; and it was so.

Perhaps a studious effort to walk in obedience rather than question the Creator 24/7 about everything He has spoken to us, would afford us a greater quality of life. Why does Christ offer "abundant life" if we would simply obey Him?

Unfortunately most would rather refuse Him, so it is the world is on a speedy rendevouz with destruction at a blinding rate of closure.

Pro 1:24 "Because I called and you refused, I stretched out my hand and no one paid attention;

Pro 1:25 And you neglected all my counsel And did not want my reproof;

Pro 1:26 I will also laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your dread comes,

Pro 1:27 When your dread comes like a storm And your calamity comes like a whirlwind, When distress and anguish come upon you.

Pro 1:28 "Then they will call on me, but I will not answer; They will seek me diligently but they will not find me,

Pro 1:29 Because they hated knowledge And did not choose the fear of the LORD.

Pro 1:30 "They would not accept my counsel, They spurned all my reproof.

Pro 1:31 "So they shall eat of the fruit of their own way And be satiated with their own devices.

Pro 1:32 "For the waywardness of the naive will kill them, And the complacency of fools will destroy them.

Pro 1:33 "But he who listens to me shall live securely And will be at ease from the dread of evil."
 
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