The Creation Story: Literal, or Figurative?

[FredVB]

Ok, well when you're ready to read the Bible, rather than imagining a bunch of different imaginary worlds, you let me know.

And no, the Bible does not say that God is to subdue and rule creation and have dominion over mankind. Nobody knows how you managed to make that one up.

I would not come on to this forum and post suggesting another poster isn't yet ready to read the Bible, personal remarks are not appropriate anyway.

Job 25:2-4
"Dominion and fear are with him. He makes peace in his high places. Can his armies be counted? On whom does his light not arise?How then can man be just with God? Or how can he who is born of a woman be clean?
Job 38:33
"Do you know the laws of the heavens? Can you establish its dominion over the earth?"
Psalm 103:22
"Praise Yahweh, all you works of his, in all places of his dominion. Praise Yahweh, my soul!"
Psalm 145:13
"Your kingdom is an everlasting kingdom. Your dominion endures throughout all generations. Yahweh is faithful in all his words, and loving in all his deeds."
Isaiah 26:13
"Yahweh our God, other lords besides you have had dominion over us, but we will only acknowledge your name."
Daniel 4:2-3
"I bless the Most High God, and I praised and honored him who lives forever. How great are his signs! How mighty are his wonders! His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom. His dominion is from generation to generation."
Ephesians 1:20-22
"God worked in Christ, when he raised him from the dead and made him to sit at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule, authority, power, dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age, but also in that which is to come. He put all things in subjection under his feet, and gave him to be head over all things for the assembly."
1 Peter 4:11
"God be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belong the glory and the dominion forever and ever."
Psalm 50:11
"For every animal of the forest is mine, and the livestock on a thousand hills. I know all the birds of the mountains. The wild animals of the field are mine."

I said God has dominion, because God has dominion. All creation belongs to God, from the beginning. This world was all perfect in the beginning, which alone God saw was very good.

 

[FredVB]

The direct reading from scriptures, not contradicting the context of the chapter, or the book from the same writer, or what was shown previous to it of the scriptures, is the way to understand the revelation from God, which is truth. Theories from science that are in contradiction to that can't be reliable for understanding the revelation differently.

 

[Diamond72]

people did not think in scientific way back then

Moses and Abraham both had the best education in their day. They were able to separate truth from error.

 

[trophy33]

Moses and Abraham both had the best education in their day. They were able to separate truth from error.

The best education in their day is beaten by a children book about our world today.

 

[Diamond72]

The best education in their day is beaten by a children book about our world today.

I never saw a children's book that talks about civil engineering. The plague was a result of people not following the advise of Moses in the Bible. Even today people think it is ok to ignore Moses.

 

[trophy33]

I never saw a children's book that talks about civil engineering. The plague was a result of people not following the advise of Moses in the Bible. Even today people think it is ok to ignore Moses.

This has nothing to do with science or with the scientific, rational and pragmatic view of the world we hold today.

 

[Diamond72]

This has nothing to do with science

Civil engineering has nothing to do with Science? Science puts a lot of effort into trying to understand the beginning of Civilization. We know this was the breath of God but Science can only study the results and not the cause.

 

[trophy33]

Civil engineering has nothing to do with Science? Science puts a lot of effort into trying to understand the beginning of Civilization. We know this was the breath of God but Science can only study the results and not the cause.

No. I meant that Genesis is not written in a scientific way. They did not know much about our universe and their style of writing and thinking was mythological, psychological, symbolic.

We know much more than they did about our universe and we think differently. Reading Genesis in our way is nonsensical and leads to serious misunderstandings what the book (and namely the creation stories) is about.

 

[Job 33:6]

I would not come on to this forum and post suggesting another poster isn't yet ready to read the Bible, personal remarks are not appropriate anyway.

Job 25:2-4
"Dominion and fear are with him. He makes peace in his high places. Can his armies be counted? On whom does his light not arise?How then can man be just with God? Or how can he who is born of a woman be clean?
Job 38:33
"Do you know the laws of the heavens? Can you establish its dominion over the earth?"
Psalm 103:22
"Praise Yahweh, all you works of his, in all places of his dominion. Praise Yahweh, my soul!"
Psalm 145:13
"Your kingdom is an everlasting kingdom. Your dominion endures throughout all generations. Yahweh is faithful in all his words, and loving in all his deeds."
Isaiah 26:13
"Yahweh our God, other lords besides you have had dominion over us, but we will only acknowledge your name."
Daniel 4:2-3
"I bless the Most High God, and I praised and honored him who lives forever. How great are his signs! How mighty are his wonders! His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom. His dominion is from generation to generation."
Ephesians 1:20-22
"God worked in Christ, when he raised him from the dead and made him to sit at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule, authority, power, dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age, but also in that which is to come. He put all things in subjection under his feet, and gave him to be head over all things for the assembly."
1 Peter 4:11
"God be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belong the glory and the dominion forever and ever."
Psalm 50:11
"For every animal of the forest is mine, and the livestock on a thousand hills. I know all the birds of the mountains. The wild animals of the field are mine."

I said God has dominion, because God has dominion. All creation belongs to God, from the beginning. This world was all perfect in the beginning, which alone God saw was very good.

And none of the above passages parallel the dominion mandate in Genesis. The Hebrew, mishtar, mashal, memshalah, baal, sholta, etc. are different words than either radah or kabash, as are used in Genesis 1:28. Which is to say that, the dominion mandate of Genesis is not equivalent to any passage that you've referenced. Different Hebrew words have different meaning, even if English translators assign the same English word.

You've referenced about half a dozen Hebrew words here and you've wrongly assumed that they all mean the same thing. Just because some English translations make the words sound similar, doesn't mean that they're actually the same. All you've demonstrated here is that you don't observe the Hebrew text behind your translations.

All this stuff you're talking about involving worlds of dire wolves, sabertooths and dinosaurs in the Bible, is completely absent from what the Bible actually says. You're imagining things that aren't actually present in the text, and you're mixing up Hebrew words without recognizing their differences.

Here are the Hebrew words used in the Genesis mandate. You're welcome to look through the 30-40 instances of their use in the Bible, and to see if you find any passages about God subduing or having dominion over mankind:

Strong's Hebrew: 3533. כָּבַשׁ (kabash) -- To subdue, bring into bondage, subject, force, keep under, bring into subjection

Strong's Hebrew: 7287. רָדָה (radah) -- To rule, to have dominion, to subdue

You've referenced Psalm 103:22 for example.
Psalms 103:22 NASB1995
[22] Bless the Lord, all you works of His, In all places of His dominion; Bless the Lord, O my soul!

But many English translations don't even use the word "dominion" here. So you need to examine the Hebrew.

Psalms 103:22 NET
[22] Praise the Lord, all that he has made, in all the regions of his kingdom! Praise the Lord, O my soul!

Psalms 103:22 CEB
[22] All God’s creatures, bless the LORD! Everywhere, throughout his kingdom, let my whole being bless the LORD!

Psalms 103:22 CEV
[22] All of God's creation and all that he rules,come and praise your Lord! With all my heart praise the Lord!

It's not enough to simply say "well some English translations say that God has dominion over people, therefore, that must be the same concept as mankind having dominion over animals in Genesis".

All instances in the Bible in which the appropriate Hebrew terms are used, particularly in relation God's command for mankind to subdue creation, involve an armed struggle. Such as God calling on the Israelites to subdue and rule over the land of Canaan (which involved war conquest and destruction).


Jeremiah 34:11,16
2 Chronicles 28:10
Nehemiah 5:5
Esther 7:8
Micah 7:19.
Numbers 32:22, 29
Joshua 18:1
2 Chronicles 22:18
1 Samuel 8:11

If we examine the appropriate Hebrew terms reflected in Genesis 1:28 for subdue and have dominion, here are examples of what we find:

Numbers 32:20-22 ESV
[20] So Moses said to them, “If you will do this, if you will take up arms to go before the Lord for the war, [21] and every armed man of you will pass over the Jordan before the Lord, until he has driven out his enemies from before him [22] and the land is subdued before the Lord; then after that you shall return and be free of obligation to the Lord and to Israel, and this land shall be your possession before the Lord.

1 Samuel 8:10-11 ESV
[10] So Samuel told all the words of the Lord to the people who were asking for a king from him. [11] He said, “These will be the ways of the king who will reign over you: he will take your sons and appoint them to his chariots and to be his horsemen and to run before his chariots.

2 Chronicles 28:10 ESV
[10] And now you intend to subjugate the people of Judah and Jerusalem, male and female, as your slaves. Have you not sins of your own against the Lord your God?

Numbers 24:19 ESV
[19] And one from Jacob shall exercise dominion and destroy the survivors of cities!”

Nehemiah 9:28 ESV
[28] But after they had rest they did evil again before you, and you abandoned them to the hand of their enemies, so that they had dominion over them. Yet when they turned and cried to you, you heard from heaven, and many times you delivered them according to your mercies.

Isaiah 14:2 ESV
[2] And the peoples will take them and bring them to their place, and the house of Israel will possess them in the Lord’s land as male and female slaves. They will take captive those who were their captors, and rule over those who oppressed them.

You can hopefully see the shift in tone of these verses in comparison to the ones you've shared.

 

[Diamond72]

dire wolves, sabertooths and dinosaurs in the Bible, is completely absent from what the Bible actually says.

You are very liberal with the word completely. Genesis 1 24And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind.” And it was so. 25God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.

There are seven different living creatures listed here. This is before God created man.

 

[Job 33:6]

You are very liberal with the word completely. Genesis 1 24And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind.” And it was so. 25God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.

There are seven different living creatures listed here. This is before God created man.

The only ones liberal here, are people that think that dinosaurs are in the Bible. Have you ever read a verse about T rex or brachiosaurus?

The book of Genesis isn't some woke university science textbook.

I know that some kids these days really enjoy Jurassic Park movies and NatGeo. But that's not what the Bible is about, and people shouldn't confuse the two.

 

[Diamond72]

Have you ever read a verse about T rex or brachiosaurus?

I just quoted you Genesis one 24 & 25. All the books in the world could not explain what is going on in those two verses. The library in Heaven is HUGE and all the books talk about what we read in our Bible.

John 21 25 Jesus did many other things. If they were all written in books, I don't suppose there would be room enough in the whole world for all the books.

Of course there is only two words. But that is a lot because every letter has infinite meaning. While it doesn’t mention T-Rex specifically, "beasts of the earth" could be interpreted as including dinosaurs and other large animals.

Remember, Genesis uses broad categories to describe creation, capturing the awe and diversity of life rather than listing every species.

 

[Job 33:6]

I just quoted you Genesis one 24 & 25. All the books in the world could not explain what is going on in those two verses. The library in Heaven is HUGE and all the books talk about what we read in our Bible.

John 21 25 Jesus did many other things. If they were all written in books, I don't suppose there would be room enough in the whole world for all the books.

Of course there is only two words. But that is a lot because every letter has infinite meaning. While it doesn’t mention T-Rex specifically, "beasts of the earth" could be interpreted as including dinosaurs and other large animals.

Remember, Genesis uses broad categories to describe creation, capturing the awe and diversity of life rather than listing every species.

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The authors knew nothing of dinosaurs. So there is no reason to suggest that Moses was talking about T rex or brachiosaurus when he wrote that.

There are no dinosaurs in the Bible.

There are camels.
Genesis 24:20 ESV
[20] So she quickly emptied her jar into the trough and ran again to the well to draw water, and she drew for all his camels.

There are oxen.
Genesis 49:6 ESV
[6] Let my soul come not into their council; O my glory, be not joined to their company. For in their anger they killed men, and in their willfulness they hamstrung oxen.

There are birds.
Genesis 2:20 ESV
[20] The man gave names to all livestock and to the birds of the heavens and to every beast of the field. But for Adam there was not found a helper fit for him.

Isaiah 11:6-8 ESV
[6] The wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the young goat, and the calf and the lion and the fattened calf together; and a little child shall lead them. [7] The cow and the bear shall graze; their young shall lie down together; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. [8] The nursing child shall play over the hole of the cobra, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the adder’s den.

Wolves, lions, cobras, bears.

The Bible includes plenty of modern day animals.

Dinosaurs, are nowhere to be found.

And only liberals would try to force brachiosaurus and T rex into the Bible.

This isn't a NatGeo documentary, this isn't the flintstones. It's not Jurassic park. It's the Bible.

Also, the animals of Genesis lived alongside humanity, hence why humanity was instructed to subdue and rule over them. So we aren't talking about the first half of day 6 being millions of years before the second half of day 6.

 

[Diamond72]

The authors knew nothing of dinosaurs.

The authors knew nothing about the vast majority of what they wrote. Moses and Jesus uses plain language. All the others used riddles and mysteries.

Moses and Jesus often spoke plainly to convey direct teachings and laws. Meanwhile, many other biblical figures used symbolic language, parables, and riddles to explore deeper spiritual truths.

 

[Job 33:6]

The authors knew nothing about the vast majority of what they wrote. Moses and Jesus uses plain language. All the others used riddles and mysteries.

Moses and Jesus often spoke plainly to convey direct teachings and laws. Meanwhile, many other biblical figures used symbolic language, parables, and riddles to explore deeper spiritual truths.

I'm pretty sure the authors knew what they were writing, otherwise, how would they write it down? Have you ever written something down, while not actually understanding what you were writing? Kind of defeats the purpose of even writing it down if it doesn't hold meaning to the person writing it. Why even write something, if you don't know the meaning of what it is that you're writing?

Imagine, the Israelites coming up to Moses. "Moses, we are having trouble understanding this passage, can you explain it to us?" And Moses turns and says "sorry, I have no idea what this means, even though I wrote it down. Good luck figuring it out".

The Israelites: ""Moses, can you explain to us what the beasts of the earth are?"

Moses' Response: "Sorry, even though I wrote this down yesterday, I don't actually know what it means. But I bet some paleontologist 2,500 years in the future from now will be able to explain, too bad none of us will be alive to ask him".

Or, consider an alternate conversation:

The Israelites: "Moses, can you explain to us what the beasts of the earth are?"

Moses: "yes, in the year 1892, 28 centuries in the future from now, there will be a man named Barnum Brown who discovered tyrannosaurus rex, a 65 million year old prehistoric reptile that was destroyed by an asteroid at the end of the Cretaceous".

The Israelites: (knowing nothing about prehistoric times or the ancient age of the earth, respond with a blank stare).

A. Moses doesn't have future scientific knowledge. And;
B. Even if he did (which there is no evidence for in scripture), none of it would have made any sense to his audience.

Which is to say that, people today are trying to act like we understand the Bible better than the very man who wrote it, and the very audience in which it was originally written to.

 

[Diamond72]

I'm pretty sure the authors knew what they were writing, otherwise, how would they write it down?

David lived about a thousand years before Jesus, so they didn't know each other personally. However, David is seen as a key figure in the lineage leading to Jesus. In the New Testament, Jesus is often referred to as the "Son of David," highlighting His fulfillment of the Messianic prophecies connected to David's line.
David's psalms and prophecies are sometimes viewed as foreshadowing Jesus's life and ministry.

 

[David Lamb]

The authors knew nothing about the vast majority of what they wrote. Moses and Jesus uses plain language. All the others used riddles and mysteries.

Moses and Jesus often spoke plainly to convey direct teachings and laws. Meanwhile, many other biblical figures used symbolic language, parables, and riddles to explore deeper spiritual truths.

What riddles and mysteries did Mark use in his gospel? What of David in the Psalms? 1 & 2 Kings? The New Testament epistles?

 

[Job 33:6]

David lived about a thousand years before Jesus, so they didn't know each other personally. However, David is seen as a key figure in the lineage leading to Jesus. In the New Testament, Jesus is often referred to as the "Son of David," highlighting His fulfillment of the Messianic prophecies connected to David's line.
David's psalms and prophecies are sometimes viewed as foreshadowing Jesus's life and ministry.

David never knew who Jesus was. David never mentioned Jesus. Some old testament passages are referenced as signs foreshadowing Jesus. That however does not mean that those same passages are then therefore about Jesus.

Discovering things in the future, does not give us the authority to then go back to scripture, and to update it's meaning. Like with the discovery of the big bang, I don't therefore receive the authority to go back and to say "well I guess Genesis 1:1 is about the big bang".

Discovering that earth is millions of years old, likewise doesn't give us the authority to then say "well I guess each day must be millions of years then".

That's now how hermeneutics works. This is a major issue known as "scientific concordism", a hermeneutical fallacy.

The Bible doesn't change meaning, every time someone discovers something new in science.

And likewise, even in terms of foreshadowing, the new testament authors are not changing meaning of the old testament.

The interpretations of the Psalms as pointing to Jesus are based on later theological reflections, not on David's understanding or intent. David wrote from his own context and experiences, and any connections made by New Testament authors reflect their understanding of Jesus in light of the entire biblical narrative, not David’s knowledge or awareness.

And unless you yourself are a new testament author, Id recommend not inventing or creating new meaning for the Genesis text with respect to things like dinosaurs (which no person of biblical times ever would have even imagined in authoring the Bible).

The only exception I might imagine, is if Moses saw some dinosaur bones on the ground. But that's not what we are talking about in the context of this discussion. This idea that Genesis is describing something akin to Jurassic Park is a complete misreading of the Bible.

 

[Job 33:6]

 

[Job 33:6]

It's similar to saying, "well now that we've discovered the big bang, we now know what Moses "actually" intended to describe in Genesis. He didn't understand his words back then, but now, with science, we know better"

Does anyone see anything wrong with this approach?

Moses didn't know that the earth was millions of years old. But now we know, so therefore, we know Genesis better than Moses. This is what he "actually" intended to describe:
each day = millions of years.

He didn't know that back then, but now we do.

And someone 1,000 years from now, will make some new or different scientific discovery. And they'll look back and say, are those people in 2024, they thought they knew what Moses meant, but now we "actually" know today.

You see?

The meaning of the Bible doesn't change through time with things like scientific discovery.

Now that we've discovered dinosaurs, we don't have the authority to go back. And to say, oh yeah, that's what Genesis must have "actually" meant when it referred to "beasts of the earth", And Moses just didn't know that.

The Bible only has one context, original context. Or, better stated, individual books of the Bible have an original author and an original single context in which they've originated. (Aside from books of the Bible that have multiple authors).

And we can't just pick the Bible up and pull it into our future context just because we feel like it. The Bible doesn't talk about dinosaurs, the authors didn't live in a time in which they would turn on a TV and watch Jurassic Park.

The idea of a Jurassic world in Genesis at the beginning of day 6, that's very anachronistic, it's just something coming out of our culture today where people like going to science museums and we like television shows about dinosaurs, and kids. Love dinosaurs, we are surrounded by these concepts in today's world, and so people are accidentally reading our modern culture, backwards into the Bible.

And that's really at the heart of the issue of why there is this alleged conflict between science and the Bible today. It's because people are trying to force science into the Bible, and they're trying to force a 21st century perspective of science into Genesis.

And then when Genesis doesn't mention dinosaurs, all of a sudden it presents a conflict.

Why aren't Brachiosaurus and T-Rex described in Genesis? I know that they're real, why aren't they there?

They aren't there because, that's not what the Bible is about. That's not the context for Genesis. The Bible was not written by Stephen Hawking in the year 2020, the Bible was not written by Charles Darwin, the Bible was not written by Carl Sagan. The Bible was not written by Francis Collins.

The Bible has to be read through the lens of its original authors, otherwise the Bible will never make sense to anyone.

And that's the real issue, underlying this entire conversation.