The Creation Story: Literal, or Figurative?

OldWiseGuy said:

Jesus' death doesn't atone for the appointed death of all that are mortal (flesh and blood) but for the eternal death penalty that results from unrepented sin.

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Appointed death? Where do you get that idea? What do you make of Romans 5:12 which states that death came through sin? What is your basis for putting death before sin?

Fervent said:

Appointed death? Where do you get that idea? What do you make of Romans 5:12 which states that death came through sin? What is your basis for putting death before sin?

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Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

At birth we are each appointed eventual physical death. This death is reserved for each of us whether we are sinners or saints. Recall that the judgment comes after physical death not before. Therefore the judgment concerns eternity, the second death.

1. Revelation 2:11
   He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
   
2. Revelation 20:6
   Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Fervent said:

Theologically the creation story has to be taken at face value. If there is death before sin, then Jesus' death does not accomplish the stated end of conquering death through atonement for sin because sin is not the cause of death. And so we cannot accept a paradigm in which sin is not directly responsible for death. Now, we may propose alternative understandings of reality in which there is not such a naive correspondence which complicates the whole matter and rectifies this discrepancy between theories of science and theological imperatives so that does not mean we have to take it as actual history though it seems to me such a process would be more about appeasing enlightenment sensibilities than dealing with the implications.

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It's Spirits death that is the concern. Otherwise Jesus would have been the last person buried, ever. That didn't happen. So physical death was never the problem in the first place.

Saint Steven said:

If you step away from the literal reading, do you enter a place where any interpretation is valid? I was raised in a church that taught that it was literal. (the "days" and the "begats") Outside the literal reading, I am at a loss to know what to make of it. Not sure if I want to get on that boat - lol

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Every person who has "dated" creation has come up with a different date.
This proves that the "begats" were not intended to date anything.

Saint Steven said:

The creation story: (Genesis)
- Was the universe created in six literal days?
- Was Adam the first human, a created being?
- Was Adam created in the image of God, after his likeness? (appearance)
- Is the Genesis account literal, or figurative?
- Was the Genesis account based on an oral tradition? (origins myth)
- In reference to Adam, is the conclusion of the genealogy of Jesus correct? (see below)

Luke 3:38 NIV
the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.

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- It is possible but I don't know.
- Yes.
- Probably, but Image may not refer to appearance. But considering the Incarnation I think probably. For it says "you were created in Christ Jesus," which is a term for the Incarnate Lord. I do not think time is just linear. But this makes a chicken-and-egg scenario, so I don't know.
- Yes (that is, both).
- Yes.
- Yes.

Dkh587 said:

The Bible teaches that it was a literal 6 days, despite many not accepting that it is presented as literal, even by God himself.

This is God speaking:

Exodus 20:8-11

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I agree. What do we do? Claim Genesis is high poetry, though it is quite unique, and call God either a liar either in part or whole?

The difficulties with accepting Gen. 1 are surrounding taking our study of now and imposing it on then. Now we know the speed of light, so we assume when God went to make everything He said “drats! I can’t do it in six days, light doesn’t move that fast!” Or can the light create both a source of light and the projection of that light through distance simultaneously? I believe He can, and He did. Because as you noted in Exodus 20:8-11 He tells us how fast He made everything. He even tells us that a reason for doing it that fast was to set a precedent for us to match Him.

I will also note it is interesting that He did not ask anyone for permission, nor reassure Himself we would understand. I’m fact the last chapters of Job are quite clear from God that we don’t understand.

Saint Steven said:

The creation story: (Genesis)
- Was the universe created in six literal days?
- Was Adam the first human, a created being?
- Was Adam created in the image of God, after his likeness? (appearance)
- Is the Genesis account literal, or figurative?
- Was the Genesis account based on an oral tradition? (origins myth)
- In reference to Adam, is the conclusion of the genealogy of Jesus correct? (see below)

Luke 3:38 NIV
the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.

Click to expand...

Exodus 20:8-11 God said He did make it in six literal days, and Adam was the first man. You will note that of course over the many years of Adam and Eve’s life outside the garden, but inside the greater Eden area they would have had many children that would intermarry.

Job ends with God saying people don’t understand how He does things, and He is pretty derisive toward people pretending they do. He says when someone can be perfect by their own strength, then they will be qualified to know how He does everything. It is not possible.

those who say things are not literal are all coming from the perspective of: “we cannot understand how God could do it, so He must not have done it.”

Of course as has been noted Origin believed it was not literal, because He could not understand it.

I would note that God is all powerful.
Imagine that imbalance when placed next to us, and we are trying to figure out how He did something; it is folly.

If you say Genesis 1-3 are not literally true, and Exodus 20:8-11 is not literally true, then you have denied the narrative of God, and the very speech of God. From there, how can you believe any quote from God, or any narration? Why is anything literal unless we can confirm it today?

You yourself must decide what you believe; the word of God, or the Word of others. I understand things are confusing; I have spent hours in a mental wreck trying to understand parts of scripture. That process is valuable. If you take one truth; the Bible is the Word and revelation of God given to man, then study it, and believe it. Everything else in life will fail you.

The people who deny the scriptures will not stand with you. Only God will, so do not be hasty to cast aside something because it is hard to understand.

Heavenly Father,
Since you give wisdom, and understanding please give you searching servant enough to trust your word though the idolatry of today does not accept things outside of human comprehension.Amen.

We probably won't ever understand 'creation week' from the biblical account alone.

Genesis is all about 'Do you trust me?'

Any origins story/ cosmogony must pose the same question. And verily I say, I am a man of insufficient faith to accept the Big Bang on its terms. Sorry no sale, Einstein.

So we should respond in the Spirit along the lines, 'Thank you God for the mysteries of creation, so far beyond our understanding, and praise to you for giving us Jesus Christ to lead us to all truth, he who holds the seven stars in his hand, the alpha and the omega.'

So why not start by submitting to the plain literal reading (ie the flat motionless enclosed earth under heaven), and let the Spirit lead you from there?

Saint Steven said:

Well, that's a rather curious thing for God to say.

Imagine going to an art fair and asking someone how they did their work.
And then you get what is said in your quote above.

If it's not okay for a human to talk that way, why is it okay for God?
Does he live at a lower moral standard then we do?

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I am new to this forum, and have never been on one before. Thank you for commenting on my post despite the many flaws with it. I am not sure I can satisfy the question though.My statement not looking at Job was not helpful. The relevant passages are quoted below showing the inadequacy of my earlier quote. I would uphold that we are like those of Job 38:2 also darkening His counsel with words without knowledge. Quotes of God responding to Job below:


“Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind and said: “Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge? Dress for action like a man; I will question you, and you make it known to me. “Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding.”
‭‭Job‬ ‭38:1-4‬ ‭ESV‬‬
Job 38:1-4 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind and said: “Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge? Dress for action like a man; I will question you, and you make it known to me. | English Standard Version 2016 (ESV) | Download The Bible App Now


“And the Lord said to Job: “Shall a faultfinder contend with the Almighty? He who argues with God, let him answer it.” Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind and said: “Dress for action like a man; I will question you, and you make it known to me. Will you even put me in the wrong? Will you condemn me that you may be in the right?”
‭‭Job‬ ‭40:1-2, 6-8‬ ‭ESV‬‬
Job 40:1-8 And the LORD said to Job: “Shall a faultfinder contend with the Almighty? He who argues with God, let him answer it.” Then Job answered the LORD and said: “Behold, I am of small account; what shall | English Standard Version 2016 (ESV) | Download The Bible App Now

““Adorn yourself with majesty and dignity; clothe yourself with glory and splendor. Pour out the overflowings of your anger, and look on everyone who is proud and abase him. Look on everyone who is proud and bring him low and tread down the wicked where they stand. Hide them all in the dust together; bind their faces in the world below. Then will I also acknowledge to you that your own right hand can save you.”
‭‭Job‬ ‭40:10-14‬ ‭ESV‬‬
Job 40:10-14 “Adorn yourself with majesty and dignity; clothe yourself with glory and splendor. Pour out the overflowings of your anger, and look on everyone who is proud and abase him. Look on everyone who is pro | English Standard Version 2016 (ESV) | Download The Bible App Now

“Then Job answered the Lord and said: “I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted. ‘Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?’ Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know. ‘Hear, and I will speak; I will question you, and you make it known to me.’ I had heard of you by the hearing of the ear, but now my eye sees you; therefore I despise myself, and repent in dust and ashes.””
‭‭Job‬ ‭42:1-6‬ ‭ESV‬‬
Job 42:1-5 Then Job answered the LORD and said: “I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted. ‘Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?’ Therefore I have uttered wha | English Standard Version 2016 (ESV) | Download The Bible App Now

regarding Genesis Chapter one, I do not believe the amount of my understanding is not as relevant as well noted from the entire chapter of Job 38; I was not there. However I do uphold that God spoke in confirmation of a literal understanding of the time of creation in Exodus 20:11; quote below:


“For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭20:11‬ ‭ESV‬‬
Exodus 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. | English Standard Version 2016 (ESV) | Download The Bible App Now

I think TheBibleProject.com does a good job of expounding on the literary aspects and beauty of Genesis 1. I am not sure they hold a literal view of Genesis. Regardless, I appreciate the work they do, and the content they teach.

Regarding the question asking if I understand Genesis 1, I would say I do not comprehend the details of Genesis one, I accept them. I have things I think, but, again, I cannot know; I was not there. I think AnswersInGenesis.com gives many scientific resources regarding the faults of the ways we have tried to make earth old, and evolution the method of creation’s start, and progression.

We keep asking people who were not there, and do not know “well what happened?” And we either do not trust God who does know, and who was there, or we do not trust the scriptures based around this issues of “We do not know how this fits with what we can study about the world.”

God did not say we would be able to figure everything out. We are not righteous because of our mental capacity, instead:

“And he believed the Lord, and he counted it to him as righteousness.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭15:6‬ ‭ESV‬‬ Genesis 15:6 And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness. | English Standard Version 2016 (ESV) | Download The Bible App Now
Though we may not know, we may still have faith as enumerated by Paul concerning righteousness:

“O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”? Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:1-9‬ ‭ESV‬‬
Galatians 3:1-9 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or b | English Standard Version 2016 (ESV) | Download The Bible App Now

Both Job, Genesis and Galatians quotes are all related to righteousness, so I should probably defend applying them to knowledge.

“What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin lies dead.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭7:7-8‬ ‭ESV‬‬
Romans 7:7-8 What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, “You s | English Standard Version 2016 (ESV) | Download The Bible App Now

The quote does not say knowledge is evil; it says knowledge was not sufficient to produce righteousness; faith produces righteousness. So, knowledge in the Law the only thing insufficient? No, but the knowledge of the workings of God except what He has revealed from the beginning works noted in the Law through the work of Jesus as quoted:

“For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, so that no human being might boast in the presence of God.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭1:22-29‬ ‭ESV‬‬
1 Corinthians 1:23-26 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness o | English Standard Version 2016 (ESV) | Download The Bible App Now

What is the the conclusion? Genesis 1 is not held together by my knowledge. God has not placed in me to know, but to have faith in His Word. I write all these things, because inheritors, are drawn away from the truth revealed by God; denying the revealed works of God because they lack understanding and comprehension of how God could have done the works He has done.

I’m fact our issue is that how did God manage to circumvent the Laws of Physics to make creation, but both Physics and Creation are made by Him. Like how in a video game I am constrained by the Physics of the game, but the creator of the game can move apart from the physics of the game, and even writes what they will be for the players. The creator can do things the “players” cannot do. And continuing this analogy though limited and foolish; when would the players be placed in creation to observe and be subject/constrained to the laws of Physics, and time? On the sixth day at the conclusion of creation. God however, we know is not constrained by time, but as quoted made the world in six days, then rested on the seventh to then have us mirror Him.

The Bible does not use my folly though it says:

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:1-3‬ ‭ESV‬‬
John 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. | English Standard Version 2016 (ESV) | Download The Bible App Now

John explains the “how” of Genesis 1 being true despite our struggles of study and comprehension. It was made by and through God who is not restrained or restricted by all the things we are. Yet for some reason we demand to know and understand, or we will reject?

I would hope that we would repent like Job; humbled before God.

I am straightforward I thing Genesis 1 is literal. So, understanding something literal is accepting it, and understanding “How” is impossible. Unless we can comprehend the substance of God? Or the Power of God? Back to my original faulty paragraph; how would we understand the substance and power of God? Well to be God. As indicated by Job 40:

““Adorn yourself with majesty and dignity; clothe yourself with glory and splendor. Pour out the overflowings of your anger, and look on everyone who is proud and abase him. Look on everyone who is proud and bring him low and tread down the wicked where they stand. Hide them all in the dust together; bind their faces in the world below. Then will I also acknowledge to you that your own right hand can save you.”
‭‭Job‬ ‭40:10-14‬ ‭ESV‬‬
Job 40:10-14 “Adorn yourself with majesty and dignity; clothe yourself with glory and splendor. Pour out the overflowings of your anger, and look on everyone who is proud and abase him. Look on everyone who is pro | English Standard Version 2016 (ESV) | Download The Bible App Now

God is able to save Himself. He showed us by His nature in the Old Testament, and the Resurrection of Jesus in the New.

Saint Steven said:

There are some straightforward problems with the text that don't require a degree in rocket science to discuss. Conflicts between the accounts in chapter one and two. And problems in each account by itself. This video points out the problems, How do you respond?

Joel Baden (Professor of Hebrew Bible Yale University) spoke at the 2013 Nantucket Project. Nearly 80 percent of all Americans think the Bible is either literally true or is the inspired word of God. And yet, most Americans have no idea what is actually in the Bible. So we have the paradoxical situation in which we as a culture "have invested the words of this book with amazing authority even when we don't know what these words are and what they mean."

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Saint Steven said:

There are some straightforward problems with the text that don't require a degree in rocket science to discuss. Conflicts between the accounts in chapter one and two. And problems in each account by itself. This video points out the problems, How do you respond?

Joel Baden (Professor of Hebrew Bible Yale University) spoke at the 2013 Nantucket Project. Nearly 80 percent of all Americans think the Bible is either literally true or is the inspired word of God. And yet, most Americans have no idea what is actually in the Bible. So we have the paradoxical situation in which we as a culture "have invested the words of this book with amazing authority even when we don't know what these words are and what they mean."

Click to expand...

Unfortunately, I do not have any new wisdom, or deep understanding. I am just a guy with a Bible. I can give what I see, and I can share the faith I have, but past that there are many more who can speak more clearly the mysteries of God. I will answer what I believe God has revealed to me, but apart from that I have nothing to share:

Jo was pretty clear his position, saying he certainly was not going to advocate any religion. That was right before his first slide. So, if he does not proclaim to be an advocate of God who is he an advocate for; I would submit The Enemy most commonly known as Satan.

Do we listen to our enemies to understand our leaders, And follow their understandings; of course not, because we know enemies want to weaken and destroy us. Even in a game we would not expect to win after asking the other team for the “best strategy”.

As far as His primary issue with the word “day” in Genesis 2: 4

“These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:4‬ ‭ESV‬‬
Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens. | English Standard Version 2016 (ESV) | Download The Bible App Now

Okay, so the Hebrew word “day” which is “yom” can mean day or time. I recommend doing word studies using biblehub.com or the app.
The qualifiers that indicate “day” as the proper translation for “yom” are: evening, morning, number of the day, and the word day, or “yom” in Hebrew.

But, even if it should be translated “time”, because it lacks all those qualifiers; people want to know “when”, because those who propose two creation accounts.

So when; well, it seems the Bible notes the day:


“Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God finished his work that he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work that he had done.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:1-2‬ ‭ESV‬‬
Genesis 2:1-2 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God finished his work that he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work that he had do | English Standard Version 2016 (ESV) | Download The Bible App Now

that was noted prior to the seventh day, so the narrative start would be day six.

As far as plants:

“When no bush of the field was yet in the land and no small plant of the field had yet sprung up—for the Lord God had not caused it to rain on the land, and there was no man to work the ground,”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:5‬ ‭ESV‬‬
Genesis 2:5 When no bush of the field was yet in the land and no small plant of the field had yet sprung up—for the LORD God had not caused it to rain on the land, and there was no man to work the ground | English Standard Version 2016 (ESV) | Download The Bible App Now

You can again look at the Hebrew, but Hebrew and English are the same, so I’ll continue to note that field can designate a terraformed area I.e. farm.
My understanding is that the time is setting prior to Adam and Eve farming farming anything which would happen after they were kicked out of the garden.

As far as the creation of man and woman:

“So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:27‬ ‭ESV‬‬
Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. | English Standard Version 2016 (ESV) | Download The Bible App Now


Genesis 1:27 does say “male and female he created them.” Okay, so when were they complete as the image of God? When they were together. We are given a narration of that process day 6:


“Then the Lord God said, “It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him.” Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:18, 24‬ ‭ESV‬‬
Genesis 2:18-24 Then the LORD God said, “It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him.” Now out of the ground the LORD God had formed every beast of the field and every bird of th | English Standard Version 2016 (ESV) | Download The Bible App Now

So, we have the first thing that is “not good”, and that is fixed when man has woman and they are one flesh.

so as noted in in Genesis 2:1 everything was complete.

so then day seven would occurred between chapter 1 and 2. However, again; day seven does not end the same. It gives the indication of the forever rest of God. For those of the faith there is a treat which gloriously explodes throughout scripture: the idea of returning to the eternal rest of God.

Unfortunately I do not have any wisdom apart from the words that we all can read. If my wisdom is folly, then I can rejoice because God has constantly been despised; if I can share in any of the suffering He experienced, then I joyfully declare allegiance to His side, and rule. May I be considered a fool for the glory of God.

Heavenly Father,
May those who trust in you take heart in suffering like you. Thank you for the Spirit you placed in me, the heart of flesh you gave me, the faith you have imparted to me, and the testimony of faithful witnesses surrounding me. May all others have greater than me. Amen.

Saint Steven said:

Joel Baden (Professor of Hebrew Bible Yale University) spoke at the 2013 Nantucket Project. Nearly 80 percent of all Americans think the Bible is either literally true or is the inspired word of God. And yet, most Americans have no idea what is actually in the Bible. So we have the paradoxical situation in which we as a culture "have invested the words of this book with amazing authority even when we don't know what these words are and what they mean."

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This forum is a fine example.

Saint Steven said:

- In reference to Adam, is the conclusion of the genealogy of Jesus correct? (see below)

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It is normal for genealogies to have an intended focus.
And dating Creation is not the intended focus.

OldWiseGuy said:

Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

At birth we are each appointed eventual physical death. This death is reserved for each of us whether we are sinners or saints. Recall that the judgment comes after physical death not before. Therefore the judgment concerns eternity, the second death.

1. Revelation 2:11
   He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
   
2. Revelation 20:6
   Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Click to expand...

Fair point, though then what do we make Romans 6 declaration that we are delivered by entering into His death? Was His death a spiritual death, or a physical death? If a physical death, then how did that serve to meet the demand if the death demanded by sin was spiritual death?