The Creation Story: Literal, or Figurative?

FredVB

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OldWiseGuy said:
Sorry for stepping on your post.

I wasn't seeking to debate the question, just adding another dimension. The OP asks whether the creation story is "literal or figurative". I'm simply presenting an alternate but legitimately literal interpretation of it that strongly suggests an ancient creation.

I am glad that is understood. There are certainly other positions for understanding what is shown, and there is no great likelihood anyone will be dissuaded from their view. Debating is not desirable for answering in this topic. I consider still the simplest understanding to be the most preferable.
 
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FredVB

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I trust the Bible for revelation from God for us. What in what I posted shows, or seems to show, that I meant the earth came before the universe? I don't know that is the case. The Bible has nothing showing that to me. The earth could have come later, and nothing of the universe was perceivable from it, and it could have remained formless a very long time. But I see the creation week happening in, well, a week. God could do that, God is not limited, and that account shows it.

There is nothing fully certain in the positions any among us have about how things began and how the account in the Bible is showing it all happened. So we can just take things into account as well as we can. I value the trust I have in the Bible account as I trust other things in the Bible that have since shown very good basis. And with other things that have become known, I can imagine the universe may be far older, the Bible does not show it is not, God still made it. The biblical account at the start shows that God said, "Let there be light!" and there was light. That could have been around the beginning of the universe. The end of that first day did not have to end, with the perspective from earth, until light from that reached it when God began forming the earth for the perfect design from the formless earth it had been. The account shows that happening day after day for five days after that, but it is not showing how long the formless earth, that God made, was created before that.
 
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TedT

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God removed the darkness that covered the pre-existing earth so the light from the pre-existing sun could reach it. :preach:

If we apply what we know of physical light to Gen 1:3 and following we get mired pretty fast...so I suggest we understand it as allusions to something else.

Genesis 1:3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness.

WoW - light with no darkness... IF this light is the visible light our eyes can see, then by making it, it creates its own darkness...How can light be not separated from darkness or how can it be so separated if it wasn't already separated by its creation? Can this really apply to visible light? Doesn't sound like light we know, does it?

So, was GOD doing tricks with visible light or does this point to something else?

1 John 1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.
Does "GOD is light" refer to a visible glow or shine like a star or sun? This is weird stuff right? Does “Let there be light,” mean HE self created HIMself? Well of course not, so light is a characteristic of GOD, a divine attribute:

1 John 1:5 And this is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you: God is light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.
Barnes' Notes on the Bible
That God is light - Light, in the Scriptures, is the emblem of purity, truth, knowledge, prosperity, and happiness - as darkness is of the opposite. John here says that "God is light" - φῶς phōs - not the light, or a light, but light itself; that is, he is himself all light, and is the source and fountain of light in all worlds. He is perfectly pure, without any admixture of sin. He has all knowledge, with no admixture of ignorance on any subject. He is infinitely happy, with nothing to make him miserable. He is infinitely true, never stating or countenancing error; he is blessed in all his ways, never knowing the darkness of disappointment and adversity.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
...that is, as light is opposed to the darkness of sin; he is pure and holy in his nature and works, and of such pure eyes as not to behold iniquity; and so perfectly holy, that angels cover their times before him, when they speak of his holiness:

Vincent's Word Studies
God is Light (Θεὸς φῶς ἐστὶν)
A statement of the absolute nature of God. Not a light, nor the light, with reference to created beings, as the light of men, the light of the world, but simply and absolutely God is light, in His very nature. Compare God is spirit, and see on John 4:24 : God is love, 1 John 4:8, 1 John 4:16. The expression is not a metaphor. "All that we are accustomed to term light in the domain of the creature, whether with a physical or metaphysical meaning, is only an effluence of that one and only primitive Light which appears in the nature of God" (Ebrard). Light is immaterial, diffusive, pure, and glorious. It is the condition of life.

People's New Testament
John 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him. The message heard from Christ, now declared, is that God is light. The source whence all light, whether it be physical, or moral, or spiritual, comes ; the Enlightener of the universe. The term denotes luminous clearness, the free and benevolent source from whence flow light, intelligence, purity and blessing, absolutely free from alien intermixture, since in him there is no darkness at all. Light represents truth, knowledge and holiness. Darkness represents ignorance, error, falsehood and sin.

In terms used by the Scripture to define LIGHT in other places, this would mean that GOD created goodness and separated it from evil…

ImCo: LIGHT IS FAITH:
LIGHT is the moral attribute of goodness and life by faith unto righteousness while darkness is evil, rejecting GOD by faith, and death. And in Gen 1:4 GOD separated between them: Genesis 1:4 God saw that the light was good, and HE separated the light from the darkness.

This suggests that ALL people created in HIS image already existed by the end of verse 2 or between the verses and speaks to the free will decision that was the separation between all those who accepted YHWH as their GOD and those who rejected HIM as a liar and a false god.

So might not Genesis 1:3 read: And God said, “Let there be light,” [ie faith unto righteousness] and there was light [faith]. 4 God saw that the light [faith] was good, and he separated the light from the darkness [unfaith: evil, rejecters, antagonists to HIS will].

FAITH BY FREE WILL:
Pre-conception existence theology contends that HE did this by asking everyone for our true free will decision to either accept HIS claims to Deity and HIS purpose for our creation or to rejecting that purpose because we thought HE was a false god, unable to fulfill his warnings of the consequences, and we did not have to bow to anyone. The separation was finalized by the election of the sons of light to HIS eternal church while He left the dark to their chosen perdition, condemned already.

To ensure that none of HIS newly elected church would be destroyed by a future sin, HE gave us all the gospel promise that if any of HIS elect should rebel against HIS will will and chose to become evil in HIS sight that though that would put them outside of HIS will, it would not put them outside of HIS grace nor love and that HE would always do what was necessary to bring them back to HIM in accord with their first true free will decision.

Peace, Ted
 
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Pure speculation follows:

Gen 1:2 could be understood that something existed before creation week.
Luke 10:18 states that Jesus saw Satan fall like lightning. Probably all the angels that rebelled along with Satan.
Rev. 9:14-15 states that there are angels chained awaiting their release to go forth and kill.

Perhaps Satan and all the fallen angels wrecked complete destruction upon being cast down to earth and had to be restrained, or limited prior to the creation of mankind and this present earth.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Does that mean you take a figurative view of Genesis?

A little of both. For example the lakes around my city are a weedy mess, which I view as a metaphor for the way my city is managed. :mad:
 
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misput

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The Hebrew word for day has many meanings. The book of Hebrews speaks of the seventh day as on going. A tree that brings life and a tree that brings death, a talking snake, enmity between the snakes seed and the woman's seed are obviously metaphoric. The scripture is replete with many types of speech (over 200 at last count) the problem is figuring out which is which or we can just be lazy and go with strictly literal but then we end up with all kinds of other problems. Scripture is a very great blessing if we truly apply ourselves, if not it is just a confusing mess.
 
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FredVB

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misput said:
The Hebrew word for day has many meanings. The book of Hebrews speaks of the seventh day as on going. A tree that brings life and a tree that brings death, a talking snake, enmity between the snakes seed and the woman's seed are obviously metaphoric. The scripture is replete with many types of speech (over 200 at last count) the problem is figuring out which is which or we can just be lazy and go with strictly literal but then we end up with all kinds of other problems. Scripture is a very great blessing if we truly apply ourselves, if not it is just a confusing mess.

Except for the use of the phrase evening came, and morning followed, which does not fit well with explaining the passages as more metaphorical. God could create all the things within six days, and the direct understanding from reading it shows that, and God's creation, the world, was perfect, and that was the only time God is recorded as calling anything "very good," about that. The earth unformed could have preceded it but that does not suggest ages of evolution with selective pressure and many creatures dying generation after generation, for this perfect scenario without killing and without death.

There is no metaphor that was actually explained with just calling it metaphor.
 
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Saint Steven

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This video caught my attention. It brings up some good questions. What do the first two chapters of the Bible tells us about the whole book?

Joel Baden (Professor of Hebrew Bible Yale University) spoke at the 2013 Nantucket Project. Nearly 80 percent of all Americans think the Bible is either literally true or is the inspired word of God. And yet, most Americans have no idea what is actually in the Bible. So we have the paradoxical situation in which we as a culture "have invested the words of this book with amazing authority even when we don't know what these words are and what they mean."
 
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SkyWriting

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The creation story: (Genesis)
- Was the universe created in six literal days?
- Was Adam the first human, a created being?
- Was Adam created in the image of God, after his likeness? (appearance)
- Is the Genesis account literal, or figurative?
- Was the Genesis account based on an oral tradition? (origins myth)
- In reference to Adam, is the conclusion of the genealogy of Jesus correct? (see below)

Luke 3:38 NIV
the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.
There were no literal days until the sun was created on day 4.
And nobody to observe any literal days until literally day 6.
So the standard understanding of "days" could not apply to days with no sun, no shadows, no 24 hours of day then night.
 
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Saint Steven

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There were no literal days until the sun was created on day 4.
And nobody to observe any literal days until literally day 6.
So the standard understanding of "days" could not apply to days with no sun, no shadows, no 24 hours of day then night.
No sunset without an observer?
 
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coffee4u

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This video caught my attention. It brings up some good questions. What do the first two chapters of the Bible tells us about the whole book?


Joel Baden (Professor of Hebrew Bible Yale University) spoke at the 2013 Nantucket Project. Nearly 80 percent of all Americans think the Bible is either literally true or is the inspired word of God. And yet, most Americans have no idea what is actually in the Bible. So we have the paradoxical situation in which we as a culture "have invested the words of this book with amazing authority even when we don't know what these words are and what they mean."

That does not surprise me one bit. I tend to view the US as a very 'religious' country, but my interactions with American's on scripture has been poor to say the least.
 
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Saint Steven

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That does not surprise me one bit. I tend to view the US as a very 'religious' country, but my interactions with American's on scripture has been poor to say the least.
What is a typical problem you encounter?
 
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coffee4u

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What is a typical problem you encounter?

What you quoted Joel Baden as saying is one.

"Nearly 80 percent of all Americans think the Bible is either literally true or is the inspired word of God. And yet, most Americans have no idea what is actually in the Bible."

Second would be strange interpretations that I have never heard before (since joining CF)

Third appears to be the way things are read.
Something is extrapolated from a bit of text that isn't there, like a 'reading between the lines' but instead of saying "this is my view" on what this means, it's claimed to be Scripture. Maybe point 2 comes from point 3.

Some of this may not be singled out to be just Americans, but since most people on here are American it appears to be that way.
 
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Saint Steven

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What you quoted Joel Baden as saying is one.

"Nearly 80 percent of all Americans think the Bible is either literally true or is the inspired word of God. And yet, most Americans have no idea what is actually in the Bible."

Second would be strange interpretations that I have never heard before (since joining CF)

Third appears to be the way things are read.
Something is extrapolated from a bit of text that isn't there, like a 'reading between the lines' but instead of saying "this is my view" on what this means, it's claimed to be Scripture. Maybe point 2 comes from point 3.

Some of this may not be singled out to be just Americans, but since most people on here are American it appears to be that way.
Well, let's face it, we all come with our own preconceptions about what the Bible is supposed to be about. So, the various backgrounds represented even just on this forum cover quite a range of perspective.

There was a time when I would argue my point of view as exclusively true, in the interest of correcting others. But over time, and in the interest of learning to understand others in the church (the Body of Christ), I have taken a more open and receptive posture. I'm still growing into this, but making some progress.

I would rather understand where someone else is coming from than try to convert them to my way of thinking. But we all have something to sell, I guess.

Did you actually watch the video? I would be interested in your comments on it. Thanks.

It's not as bad as it looks on the surface. He asks some fair questions, and knows what he is talking about.
 
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chad kincham

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Genesis contains two accounts of creation, the one in chapter 2 is older, the one in chapter 1 is probably from the time in Babylon. The redactors of the Bible put them together.

Of course its not scientific, people did not think in scientific way back then. It was written in the era of mythological dramas, symbolic stories, psychological metaphors.

Its point is not to teach how it was technically done, its point is to show us our place in the world, our archetypal struggles with evil/chaos and to teach us monotheism.

There are not two different creation accounts.

First, there were originally no chapter divisions in Genesis or other books of the Bible - chapter headings were introduced much later, and there are many instances of chapter headings being put in the wrong place.


It’s clear from reading Genesis 1 and 2, that the first 3 verses in Ch. 2 belong at the end of Ch. 1, so that 2:4 should be the first verse of Ch. 2:


Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.


Those three misplaced verses in Ch. 2, make it obvious that God was finished with all of the creating process at the end of day six, which is why He rested on day 7.


And verse 2:4, which should be the start of the chapter, states that ch. 2 is a review, or overview, of creation.


To whit:


Gen 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth WHEN THEY WERE CREATED., in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,


When you exegete verse 4: the word GENERATIONS means a historical account in the Hebrew, and not a different creation account - which fact is reflected in other bible versions:


Gen 2:4 These are the records of how the heavens and the earth were created. On the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, (ISV)


Gen 2:4 These are the genealogical records of the heavens and the earth when they were created, at the time when Adonai Elohim made land and sky. (TLV)


Gen 2:4 These are the histories of the heavens and the earth, when they were created, in the day that Jehovah Elohim made earth and heavens, (Darby)


The word translated GENERATIONS in KJV indeed means HISTORY:


H8435 (Strong)

תֹּלְדָה תּוֹלְדָה

tôledâh tôledâh

to-led-aw', to-led-aw'

From H3205; (plural only) descent, that is, family; (figuratively) history: - birth, generations.

Total KJV occurrences: 39


Thus there are not contradictory creation accounts in Genesis, but there is a creation account, followed by a historical review of it, that emphasizes different aspects of creation, such as creation of Adam and Eve.
 
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- Was Adam the first human, a created being?

Adam (mankind) experienced morality problems due to his ego.
God re-made man into his spiritual image and it didn't go well.
 
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