The Covenant of the Seed

[EchadHashem]

Beresheit 3:15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel." {NAV}

Is this a correct translation? Some suggest that the "seed" are the descendants (plural) of Eve. More specifically, that it refers to a specific lineage, i.e. Israel, to proceed from Eve. Rahsi, and others, agree that it is Israel and this bruising occurs contingent on keeping the Torah. In contrast, some suggest (like the NAV translation) that seed should be understood to be singular, a single seed or descendant, i.e. refer to the Moshiach. Perhaps both are true. Here is Targum Onkelos:

And I will put enmity between thee and between the woman, and between thy son and her son. He will remember thee, what thou didst to him (at) from the beginning, and thou shalt be observant unto him at the end.

"at the end" is a clear reference to the time of Moshiach which, I believe, clearly indicates that Onkelos understood that the "Seed" in this verse (also?) refers to King Moshisha.

Any thoughts on this or what it might mean? Can anyone supply sources re: "at the end".

 

[simchat_torah]

Some suggest that the "seed" are the descendants (plural) of Eve. More specifically, that it refers to a specific lineage, i.e. Israel

hmmm... I had never considered this before.

 

[Woodsy]

An interesting thing here is the terminology: women have no "seed."
I realize that it's a euphemism for progeny, but still, only males have seed. And language in Torah is rarely (if ever) sloppy.

 

[EchadHashem]

Thanks for the comments.

Re: Seed being plural
Here are two refs that seem to take this point of view.
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between the seed of thy son, and the seed of her sons; and it shall be when the sons of the woman keep the commandments of the law, they will be prepared to smite thee upon thy head; but when they forsake the commandments of the law, thou wilt be ready to wound them in their heel. Nevertheless for them there shall be a medicine, but for thee there will be no medicine; and they shall make a remedy for the heel in the days of the King Meshiha. Targum Pseudo-Jonathon

And it shall be when the sons of the woman consider the law, and perform (its) instructions, they will be prepared to smite thee on thy head to kill thee; and when the sons of the woman forsake the commandment of the law, and perform not (its) instructions, thou wilt be ready to wound them in their heel, and hurt them. Nevertheless there shall be a medicine for the sons of the woman, but for thee, serpent, there shall be no medicine: but it is to be that for these there shall be a remedy for the heel in the days of the king Meshiha. Jerusalem Targum

Re: Seed of the Woman
Great point. I wonder what meaning of this is? Does it indicate a broader application...the Seed of Israel, the bride of the Moshiach...can a nation have a Seed? Perhaps that is a stretch. hmmm....

 

[koilias]

An interesting thing here is the terminology: women have no "seed."
I realize that it's a euphemism for progeny, but still, only males have seed. And language in Torah is rarely (if ever) sloppy.

You're right, rarely sloppy...Hence "seed of woman" refers to Meshiach.

 

[koilias]

Perhaps both are true.

Both are true. "Seed" (zer'a) is a collective noun, it can mean singular or plural, but most often the collective sense is meant, even with a singular pronoun in context. However our Rav Shaul decides to d'rash it singular, (commenting on Genesis 22.18 perhaps: "In your seed all the nations will be blessed"):

Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "And to your Seed," who is Meshiach. (Gal. 3.16)

Which doesn't reflect that well on him as a Rabbi since he is invoking the LXX, and not the Hebrew. Still, Paul is not out of line...for such midrashic technique is normal among Rabbis. There is never just "one" correct interpretation. Oral Torah allows for multi-valent readings of Torah. Both can be true.

 

[EchadHashem]

Both are true. "Seed" (zer'a) is a collective noun, it can mean singular or plural, but most often the collective sense is meant, even with a singular pronoun in context. However our Rav Shaul decides to d'rash it singular, (commenting on Genesis 22.18 perhaps: "In your seed all the nations will be blessed"):


So do you think this is essentially the same promise? "The Mashiach will crush the serpants head" = "Through the Mashiach all the nations will be blessed"

I think so. It seems that the nations being blessed is an extension of the previous promise. hmm....

 

[Hix]

Ive heard this viewpoint before, as quite alot of Rabbis take the creation and garden of eden account as being allegorical. Im not sure about the seed of the woman being moshiach though...

 

[Charlesinflorida]

This discussion brings up another thought. The sed of the Woman is (IMO) Messiah, for Gods plan is eternal. Messiah is eternal and salvation in the plan of Elohim. Now, we know how the Womans seed comes about, but how does the sed, progeny of Satan come about. Does he raise up a special vessel (body) in the same way as did Elohim? Does he have that sort of creative power? Or is his seed only demonically possessed?

Charles the crazy one

 

[EchadHashem]

Beresheet 5: 32 - 6: 8 reads, "5:32Noach was five hundred years old, and Noach became the father of Shem, Cham, and Yefet.

6:1It happened, when men began to multiply on the surface of the ground, and daughters were born to them, 6:2that the Mighty One's sons saw that men's daughters were beautiful, and they took for themselves wives of all that they chose. 6:3Yahweh said, 'My spirit will not strive with man forever, because he also is flesh; yet will his days be one hundred twenty years.' 6:4The Nefilim were in the earth in those days, and also after that, when the Mighty One's sons came to men's daughters. They bore children to them. The same were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.

Question: Does mighty one's refer to one personage that had sons or is does it refer to a group of mighty individuals who all had sons? Maybe, if it is singular, the "mighty one" is the serpant and the nefilim are his seed.

hmmm.....

 

[Henaynei]

An interesting thing here is the terminology: women have no "seed."
I realize that it's a euphemism for progeny, but still, only males have seed. And language in Torah is rarely (if ever) sloppy.

*Torah is NEVER sloppy* - for generations scientists thought the fact that the bible says the rabbit chews it's cud was pure mis-information - until they found out the rabbit REALLY *does* chew it's cud!! Men/We are ignorant and mis-informed - Never G-d

Putting a medical note:
As much as the man has seed, the woman does - it takes both seeds to "bear fruit" as it were. Where Torah says a man is unclean for unintentionally spilled seed and under the penalty of death for intentionally spilled seed (both of which happen rarely, supposedly) - the woman is under a monthly separation that exceeds the separation of a man with an issue of blood - could this not be because the woman "spills seed" monthly unintentionally??

It is technically possible - medically, all though extrememly rare naturally - for a woman to become pregnant without the "input" of male seed - HOWEVER the offspring can ONLY be female! Thus. for Miriam to bear a son without the agency of a human male is indeed a miracle.

medical note concluded....

 

[EchadHashem]

The Seed Covenant Continued

I propose the following concerning the Moshiach as the Seed.

Beresheit 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.

Perhaps Eve understood/thought that the Seed would be, or proceed from, her eldest son...i.e. "I have gotten a man from the Lord."

However, Cain's sacrifice (of dedication?) was not found acceptable to HaShem. This upset Cain (perhaps because he wanted the blessing of the Seed issuing forth from him?). HaShem seems to indicate even though the Seed promise is does not belong to Cain that he can be accepted and that Cain (and his seed) will rule over Abel.

Beresheit 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee [shall be] his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Whereupon Cain rose up and slew Abel. This left no Seed. However, we find that HaShem provides:

Beresheit 4:25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, [said she], hath appointed me another Seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew. (KJV)

I think we see the Seed Covenant/promise mentioned again to Abraham stating that the Covenant of the Seed will be through the lineage of Isaac (note: read the great post by Simchat about Isaac):

Beresheit 17:19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, [and] with his Seed after him.

This is all leading somewhere...

I believe that the Parashat Bechukotai may refer specifically to the Seed Promise/Covenant when it refers to Isaac:

Vayikra 26:42 Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.

Finally, we find this again in Daniel 9. A careful reading of Daniel 9 seems to indicate that Daniel was praying in the form specified in Vayikra 26 to end the cursings. Perhaps Daniel was also looking for the Promised Seed. I have always wondered why the angel instructs Daniel concerning the coming of the Moshiach when Daniel appears to be praying concerning the land. However, if Daniel 9 is linked to Vayikra 26 then it makes sense that the Angel would tell Daniel about the Moshiach...it was part of the restoration promises.

hmmm....any thoughts anyone?

 

[Henaynei]

The Seed Covenant Continued

I propose the following concerning the Moshiach as the Seed.

Beresheit 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.

Perhaps Eve understood/thought that the Seed would be, or proceed from, her eldest son...i.e. "I have gotten a man from the Lord."

However, Cain's sacrifice (of dedication?) was not found acceptable to HaShem. This upset Cain (perhaps because he wanted the blessing of the Seed issuing forth from him?). HaShem seems to indicate even though the Seed promise is does not belong to Cain that he can be accepted and that Cain (and his seed) will rule over Abel.

Beresheit 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee [shall be] his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Whereupon Cain rose up and slew Abel. This left no Seed. However, we find that HaShem provides:

Beresheit 4:25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, [said she], hath appointed me another Seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew. (KJV)

I think we see the Seed Covenant/promise mentioned again to Abraham stating that the Covenant of the Seed will be through the lineage of Isaac (note: read the great post by Simchat about Isaac):

Beresheit 17:19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, [and] with his Seed after him.

This is all leading somewhere...

I believe that the Parashat Bechukotai may refer specifically to the Seed Promise/Covenant when it refers to Isaac:

Vayikra 26:42 Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.

Finally, we find this again in Daniel 9. A careful reading of Daniel 9 seems to indicate that Daniel was praying in the form specified in Vayikra 26 to end the cursings. Perhaps Daniel was also looking for the Promised Seed. I have always wondered why the angel instructs Daniel concerning the coming of the Moshiach when Daniel appears to be praying concerning the land. However, if Daniel 9 is linked to Vayikra 26 then it makes sense that the Angel would tell Daniel about the Moshiach...it was part of the restoration promises.

hmmm....any thoughts anyone?

Shalom

You have made a clear and sincere effort here, but I find several of your conclusions a bit stretched.....
1)

Perhaps Eve understood/thought that the Seed would be, or proceed from, her eldest son...i.e. "I have gotten a man from the Lord."

up to that time ONLY G-d had made a man - how much more wonderous in magnitude must the first birth of a human been as it had never happened before!! This seems to me to be the clearest meaning

2)

This upset Cain (perhaps because he wanted the blessing of the Seed issuing forth from him?). HaShem seems to indicate even though the Seed promise is does not belong to Cain....

Your argument seems here to be dichatymus - first that Cain is mad that his sacrifice was not accepted because he wanted to be the source of the Seed, *then* that "even though the promise does not belong to him" he can still rule over the progenator of the Seed..... I suggest that the progenator never was either Cain or Abel, but always Seth.

3)

another Seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.

You capatilized seed, I don't believe that is borne out in the scripture. This is the cry of the broken heart of the first mother to lose a child. No more, no less.

4)

Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.

This was specifically about the covenant G-d spoke to each of these men, to give them and their families a permenant home, Israel. I really can't see a reference to "seed" here - that just is not the covenant to which Elohim is referring For my $0.02...

Ah, well, this is just my opinion..... like my DH says: "Scripture books for men, picture books for women!!"

 

[EchadHashem]

You have made a clear and sincere effort here, but I find several of your conclusions a bit stretched.....
1) up to that time ONLY G-d had made a man - how much more wonderous in magnitude must the first birth of a human been as it had never happened before!! This seems to me to be the clearest meaning

Good point. However, I still wonder on this one...

2) Your argument seems here to be dichatymus - first that Cain is mad that his sacrifice was not accepted because he wanted to be the source of the Seed, *then* that "even though the promise does not belong to him" he can still rule over the progenator of the Seed..... I suggest that the progenator never was either Cain or Abel, but always Seth.

Good point again. However, consider the following:

Beresheit And it shall be when the sons of the woman consider the law, and perform (its) instructions, they will be prepared to smite thee on thy head to kill thee; and when the sons of the woman forsake the commandment of the law, and perform not (its) instructions, thou wilt be ready to wound them in their heel, and hurt them. Nevertheless there shall be a medicine for the sons of the woman, but for thee, serpent, there shall be no medicine: but it is to be that for these there shall be a remedy for the heel in the days of the king Meshiha. Jerusalum Targum

In the dual meaning of the original Seed promise/covenant, there appears to be an indication that the Seed of the Adversary could rule over the Seed (in this interpretation = descendants) of the woman when they did not keep Torah. There is actually a pretty close relationship between these two versus...isn't there? In fact, is this not the first mention of the diaspora? Is this a stretch too....

3) You capatilized seed, I don't believe that is borne out in the scripture. This is the cry of the broken heart of the first mother to lose a child. No more, no less.

Indeed I did capitalize "Seed" ...
I should have indicated as much...however, I am not sure that we can tell if it should be capitalized here. I think we all agree that the original Seed promise should be capitalized (or both capitalized and small case at the same time) but it is not capitalized in most translations.

4) This was specifically about the covenant G-d spoke to each of these men, to give them and their families a permenant home, Israel. I really can't see a reference to "seed" here - that just is not the covenant to which Elohim is referring For my $0.02...

hmmm...I agree that there is a primary meaning here. However, given the clear overtones of the Moshiach, I wonder if there is not a sod meaning in this.


Good points indeed. Keeps me thinking.

Shalom.