The Counterfeit Character of God Movement

I am thankful to this thread that pointed me to HS.com. I've been lurking. I just wanted to say that I do not think their is a subversion of SDA ideas, just a more open and honest representation about the different ideas present within the church. We sometimes take the position that if we do not talk about or ignore issues they will go away. In this way the actual ideas and views become distorted and no understanding can be reached. It is o.k. to disagree and question our belief system. Without examining our "truth" we would have never had the protestant reformation, or the creation of the SDA church. The truth can withstand questioning and discussion. I see open conversations as a positive. As long as we keep to the written script of what the "church" believes, we loose the change to see the deeper truth God has to offer and stop growing. We, as a church, need to embrace those who question. The same with EGW. Questioning her is not a danger to the church. It is the fact that some fear her being examined is the problem. The truth does not need protection. I am EGW neutral-meaning if she draws you closer to God and the bible its all good. If she is a stumbling block to you, it is o.k. not to include her writings in your study life. What is important is that we have a study life and are tuned in to the word of God. Not everyone can be reached the same way. Some need meat and others need milk.

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MrBadger42 said:

I know you're going to think I'm trying to be cagey but it is really impossible to answer your question without knowing exactly what you mean by "sola scripture". There is a thread on HeavenlySancuary.com on this very subject and it is long and non-trivial. But I'll do my best to tell you how I see things.

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For the record, I think your response was very candid, so I thank you for clarifying this aspect of your faith.

MrBadger42 said:

I said in my introductory statement that I believe in the "authority of truth" - what is. I believe that since "God is truth" all things which are true are not contradictory. I therefore take truth wherever it is found, in the bible, in EG White, in nature, in science, in philosophy, in mathematics - in God's leading of my life and investigations into "whether these things be true." I believe that God has given me a mind, intelligence, reason and logic as tools for thinking His thoughts after him, to give me a way to separate truth from error in order to protect the heart of love that he has also given me.

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I agree with that. However, I think you would agree here that perceptions of truth outside the Bible can get complicated. My perspective is that the Bible alone reveals all truth and that what we perceive to be truth outside of the Bible should always work in the framework of the Bible. Another words, events outside the Bible does not elevate its ideas above scripture (I think you agree with this point). However, I also think what we "percieve" to be truths on the outside is not equal to scripture either (I think you disagree here). Therefore, all things outside of scripture can only serve to support the Bible and is not a necessary requisite for learning the truth. Scripture only fills the "requirement."

MrBadger42 said:

I find that the bible provides a framework for understanding God's dealing with man and as such leads me into many other realms of truth. So, if you are asking if the bible is the only place I find truth, the answer is "no".

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I can find truth that gives me greater understanding of existing truth already explained in the scripture. But it is not new "truth" since scripture already covered it.

MrBadger42 said:

Nor do I believe in "verbal inspiration". I don't think God dictated the bible word-for-word. The prophets were God's penmen - not his pen, as EG White puts it. I think it is necessary to read the bible in the context of the writer, the people described, and the people for whom it was written. God has always spoken in terms and images that the people could understand. We must understand God's intentions for his people if we are to understand his actions and words.

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I agree and disagree. I agree that God convicted them with the truth and allowed there perceptions to translate this truth. But I also believe God is omniscent. Therefore, he knows in advance what will be written and took everything into account, especially the literal word. Therefore, I believe the Bible can be viewed as a codebook in its entirety and with in the guidelines of the codebook be viewed as a casebook for better understanding. This is why many can attest to the perfection of the written word. Gods written work is flawless, and its the only book you can read verse per verse as a codebook and find all that is said to be true in a literal sense.

Finally, I would add a note of caution. It would be easy to make the bible into an idol, something that we revere more than the God that it points to. Remember the words of Jesus: "You search the scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life. But it is they which testify of me. Yet you will not come to me that you may have life."

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He was not telling them that they were incorrect for searching or relying only on scripture.

"and these are they which testify of Me." he says.

"But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life."
This is why I like NKJV, cause newer translations have these subtle flaws. That and and but make a big difference. By putting and in there, hes not denouncing them looking at scripture, but is acknolwedging that they testify of him. To paraphrase, "you read scripture and don't even recognize about whom its talking about?" The point here is that they were filtering out important facts in the Bible that pointed to the Messiah. They were using their human filters, that human filter was pride.

The bible is only of benefit if it leads us to Jesus Christ, if it leads us to accept his witness about his Father, if it persuades us to say to Him, "If you are a king, than I would like to be in you kingdom!"

Mark

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Amen!

livingtemple said:

Man of God,


My point is this - most people follow the crowd and the evidence for that can be found in a cursory study of the effectiveness of marketing/trends and history where we see few MLKs and Ghandis. I would further go on to say that more religionists live in fear of breaking some man-made rule (thinking its from God) than not so its no wonder that they remain inside the dogma box of their church, synagogue or temple etc.

Message boards like this one are proof that categorical thinking will be our demise if we allow it.

-Stacie

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Thanks for your incite Stacie,

There are many post in this thread about the unfair criticism and judging going on about HS.com. But then it would appear to me that any criticism/judging made about the SDA mainstream church or even this message board, is OK. I say this not because I am offended. Nor do I say this to defend the criticism about HS.com. I say this to show the double standard that exist.

I would like to know how a message board "like this" is proof of categorical thinking or otherwise. And how does that lead to our demise?

This just seems to me to be another case of "my doctrine is better then yours?, we have the truth, and you do not." But what is the basis for your argument? How is your "truth" anymore a reality then current SDA mainstream? What makes you more of a "free thinker" then me or any other "fundamentalist." Obviously, you are entitled to your opinion, but does not the mere fact that your already judging this message board as categorical testify to your lack of "free thinking." In addition, is not your staunch defense of HS.com proof of your devotion to a "crowd" of individuals that your willing to follow?

Would you even go as far as saying that the true church are those that only have the same principles as HS.com?

I say all this not to offend you or anyone else, but to speak truthfully. If we are going to talk about truth, we should be able to practice it, especially when it comes to doctrine. Agreed?

Lucifer challenged God. He claimed his laws were binding and unjust. When you mention this board being categorical, I think of Lucifer claiming that following "Gods" truth is categorical. I think of the serpent tempting Eve to eat of the "tree of knowledge" so she can have knowledge of Good and Evil. It just sounds like that it could be the same argument. The point is not to say what your doing is evil, but that even your definition of "free thinking" can be different from what is "truth." (not saying it is, but what is your boundary? ) Is "free thinking" a group of individuals where everyone has a different opinion on the same subject?

To me, the answer to salvation is clear, love God, accept His grace, and keep His commandments. And always remember that Satin will try to convince you that doing the contrary is OK by God. But he does not attack head on all the time, he often "fits in" w/ one little lie at a time.

There is nothing secret or hidden at HS.com. They have had and answer questions for what I think may be demon possessed people and atheists to very conservative to very liberal SDAs and Christians of other faiths. I have never heard anyone over there say that "the true church has only the principles of HS.com" as a matter of a fact the conversation often runs into how wonderful God is that He meets all of us where ever we are and brings us to Him.

I think the people from HS are in the dubious position of having to defend their thought process which is the simple study of God's character. If anyone has any questions about them it would be wise to go over there and ask questions or research for oneself, instead of taking anyone's word for it or supposing or surmising what they teach. It is as simple as a Bible study with the SOP. No agenda, really, just listening to God show us who He is through the life of Jesus Christ. It really is that simple. No secret agenda. Sorry, I know that will disappoint some, but isn't that the way the devil works? He gets us all worked up and suspicious over nothing to distract us from studying about Jesus.

God bless,

Cherie

Cherie7 said:

I personally have no idea who the author is and I have not read his article. Remember that just because there is an article or post from someone it does not mean it is what the GNT teaches. HS is like a wikipedia of SDA opinions and studies. I would have to read the article to say if I agree or not but I have spent a lot of time here today and I DO have a life outside of forums. : )

If you want to know what the GNT teachers you can watch their sermons and videos on their site. I think watching it for yourself and deciding for oneself is really the best way to decide what is right for you.

My personal opinion is that the writer of that book and the tagnet site are both coloring things to make the point they want and it is not the truth. If more people actually read the conflict of the ages starting with Patriachs and Prophets and on through they would probably not even worry about what the GNT is teaching. I have reconfirmed what I was taught there over and over through the SOP.

It has been a blessing to me and I am a sixth gen SDA that had a grandmother and mother who are extremely well read in the SOP and I myself read it with the Bible through every year now too. I would say don't take my word or anybody's word. Listen to the DVDs and take your Bible with you.

God bless,

Cherie

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Fair enough.

Thanks Cherie for answering my questions. You were a tremendous help. I think HS.com has some fine outstanding people from what I see so far. I still think there are some differences that need to be addressed and identified for everyone sake, but I do think everyone is "well meaning" in there agenda.

Cherie7 said:

There is nothing secret or hidden at HS.com. They have had and answer questions for what I think may be demon possessed people and atheists to very conservative to very liberal SDAs and Christians of other faiths. I have never heard anyone over there say that "the true church has only the principles of HS.com" as a matter of a fact the conversation often runs into how wonderful God is that He meets all of us where ever we are and brings us to Him.

I think the people from HS are in the dubious position of having to defend their thought process which is the simple study of God's character. If anyone has any questions about them it would be wise to go over there and ask questions or research for oneself, instead of taking anyone's word for it or supposing or surmising what they teach. It is as simple as a Bible study with the SOP. No agenda, really, just listening to God show us who He is through the life of Jesus Christ. It really is that simple. No secret agenda. Sorry, I know that will disappoint some, but isn't that the way the devil works? He gets us all worked up and suspicious over nothing to distract us from studying about Jesus.

God bless,

Cherie

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Cherie,

Despite our different viewpoints, your good people. Amen to faith in Jesus Christ. Follow his example all the way, and everything will be "A ok."

Man-ofGod said:

For the record, I think your response was very candid, so I thank you for clarifying this aspect of your faith.

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I am gratified. You will forgive me for wondering if you were trying to set me up with a "Have you stopped beating your wife yet?" question.

I think you would agree here that perceptions of truth outside the Bible can get complicated.

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As can perceptions inside the bible. I think it was Dr Provonsha who observed "We do not see God as he is, rather we see God as we are." I suspect that the same is true in our reading and interpretation of the bible - we bring a great deal of ourselves into the process and that makes things very complicated.

I also think what we "percieve" to be truths on the outside is not equal to scripture either (I think you disagree here).

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Hmmm, I would say that truth is not hierarichal and that it is not very meaningful to talk about the equality or inequality of truth. It is clear that some things which are true can be more or less relevant to the question at hand. But from the largest perspective (which only God can have) I would suggest that all truth is "equal".

I can find truth that gives me greater understanding of existing truth already explained in the scripture. But it is not new "truth" since scripture already covered it.

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The bible tells us everything we need to know about God, his dealing with man, and how he feels about us. I suppose that one could argue that is all the truth that is important to us right now. But I'm not sure that I would agree that the "scripture already covered" everything. The bible points us to God. That is where the great journey begins, not where it ends.

But I also believe God is omniscent. Therefore, he knows in advance what will be written and took everything into account, especially the literal word.

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If you want to prove me a liberal and a heretic then let's discuss the "Openness of God". Or not.

Therefore, I believe the Bible can be viewed as a codebook in its entirety and with in the guidelines of the codebook be viewed as a casebook for better understanding.

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I love Alden too. But no, I don't see the bible as a "code book". The point of the bible is not to give all the rules for living - but to point us to the source of life!

Were I to see the bible as you do I would feel I was in serious danger of making an idol out of the book. But that is just me.

Mark

catmommy said:

The truth can withstand questioning and discussion. I see open conversations as a positive.

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Hear hear! I often think I hear a certain amount of fear that God or the bible do not bear close inspection because we're afraid of what we might find out! Nonsense! If God is true he can only be made to look better by the closest examination. Only Satan is afraid of scrutiny.

Mark

Fear - I believe that the most immediate and most damaging and most obvious effect of sin is fear. The first words out of Adam's mouth after the fall were "We heard your voice and we were afraid." Fear is the thing that controls our lives under sin. Fear is the weapon that the Enemy uses to keep us under his thumb, to prevent us from doing the right thing when we know what it is. Fear is necessary in a dangerous world. But whenever heaven touches earth, what are the first words spoken? "Don't be afraid!" So I am always "suspicious" (another kind of fear I guess, isn't it?) when I hear people arguing from a sense of fear rather than from a sense of Joy. It shows a certain amount of distrust in our Father, doesn't it? "Be not afraid, you are worth more than many sparrows."

Authority - My more traditional friends sometimes complain that they are uncomfortable with anything that is not stamped "approved" by the proper "authority". Imagine if those listening to Jesus had demanded that he get the stamp of approval from the Jewish leaders before they would feel safe (unafraid) to listen to him? That is why I opened by first statement with only accepting "the authority of truth". No human person or organization deserves or is safe with authority over what we believe and our relationship with God. Jesus promised to send the Spirit to "guide you into all truth". Maybe we should put a little more faith in God's promise to not abandon us and to help us find the truth that we seek?

Traditional - The name of this form is "Traditional Adventists". And I'm sure that whoever chose that name was thinking about going back to the same beliefs that our Founders had. But if we want to be literal "Traditional Adventists" we should be willing to follow their example in thinking for themselves, "studying to see if these things be true", being willing to follow truth wherever it leads, whether it human authority behind it or not. To be Traditional Adventists we will have to be moving forward not backwards. There is a reason that we're still here. If the founders had gotten it 100% right we would now be discussing this in the Kingdom. The fact that we are still here means that there is more to learn (and possibly unlearn).

Or so it seems to me,

Mark

Rick,

You asked me:

Could you elabarate on how she is seen by those leading HS.com or at the least by you...

Thanks
Rick

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Once again, I cannot speak for my fellow hs.com team members but I can speak for myself.

As far as EGW goes? I take one piece of advice she gave over and over and over again: Look to Jesus - not me - for healing and truth and revelation. And so, that's what I do - I look to Jesus, not EGW.

As far as how I view her? I see her as a friend of God and one among many sources that helped me to understand that God is about healing - not punishing; that God is my friend and not to be feared; that people can make mistakes and God won't hold an exacting account; that nothing that enters a man defiles him but instead what comes out of a man's mouth; that God wants my heart, not my pocketbook; that God wants every day to be a day of rest and freedom, not just one; that God is a life giver, not a destroyer; and finally that God can be trusted even when bad things happen to good people.

Peace,

Stacie

CatMommy,

I like and agree with all you said.

Right on!

Peace,

Stacie

RND said:

Excellent thoughts Stacie! I for one I'm so fortunate I wasn't pummeled with EGW when I first set foot in an Adventists church for the first time. I was introduced to her just right! "Have you ever read the book 'the Great Controversy David?" "No, I don't think I've ever have so & so." "Well David, here's a paper back version that I think you'll find of interest!" "Great so &
so. Thanks."

No "she's a prophetess" talk, no "if you don't believe her...." admonitions. Just allowing the truth to come out naturally, without having it forced on me. I've always appreciated that approach. When I was at the Catholic hospital for my broken wrist yesterday I saw a book, in Spanish, called "Steps to Christ" that I merely told the lady with her grandfather that the book is great in English too!

Speaking the truth about EGW....without a sledgehammer.

(BTW, this post took about 15 mins. to post thanks to my broken wrist! Praise the Lord....I Think this was His way of letting me know I need to concentrate on different things.)

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Great points Stacie and RND! Sometimes we've gone door to door handing out Steps to Christ. It is a beautiful book and one of my favorites. You are right RND, there is no need to go into a "She was a prophet" spiel--just give it out and away to people with a postivie comment about it. We as humans who feel the need to explain everything sometimes weigh down the gospel and slow it down.

Cherie

livingtemple said:

Rick,

You asked me:



Once again, I cannot speak for my fellow hs.com team members but I can speak for myself.

As far as EGW goes? I take one piece of advice she gave over and over and over again: Look to Jesus - not me - for healing and truth and revelation. And so, that's what I do - I look to Jesus, not EGW.

As far as how I view her? I see her as a friend of God and one among many sources that helped me to understand that God is about healing - not punishing; that God is my friend and not to be feared; that people can make mistakes and God won't hold an exacting account; that nothing that enters a man defiles him but instead what comes out of a man's mouth; that God wants my heart, not my pocketbook; that God wants every day to be a day of rest and freedom, not just one; that God is a life giver, not a destroyer; and finally that God can be trusted even when bad things happen to good people.

Peace,

Stacie

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Thanks Stacie for the reply, I hope this turns out to be a tempest in a teacup when its all said and done, and we all can be one in Christ as we prepare for his coming.

God Bless
Rick

RND,

15 minutes to write? Eek. Hope your wrist gets better quick!

Reddogs,

What a blessing to hear you say all you said - Love you brother

Nicodema,

I totally appreciate your post - beautiful. You are right, in taking time to defend, we lose energy for the Good Word. I do want to say though that much can be accomplished - even on message boards - for sharing what God has shared with us. Once again, one must take heed for like you said, it is way to easy to fall into the snare of defense and we need not defend. It takes an appreciation for the principle of process to allow the upheavals to rise and settle yes, and always its worth it in the end.

Your loving concern is heartfelt, healing and a blessing to read - thank you, thank you, thank you. I showed my husband Marco your post and he expressed an appreciation for all you said so thanks from him as well.

Peace to All,

-Stacie

MrBadger42 said:

Nicodema,

I, for one, didn't come here to defend or attack. I came here simply to dialogue with others who may not share my views in the hope that misunderstandings might be alleviated. I learn a great deal by understanding viewpoints other than my own, even those that I violently disagree with.

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Of course! It wasn't an indictment by any means. It just came so clear, and all in a flash, like a panoramic view of decades of this kind of strife and in-fighting that I've seen in the church, and a sudden realization of the real goal behind it ultimately.

We tend to perceive the goal to be the obvious and apparent attempt to malign, discredit, sling mud, etc. Yet in reality, spiritual reality, all of that takes a big back seat to the primary goal of basic derailing -- getting us off mission and all snared up in the tangles of trying to defend ourselves against false accusations. It's a real trap, that one, and a deadly one too.

I'm sorry if I got carried away in my enthusiasm but if I said nothing under such conditions, I'd be remiss in my duties. As for you, bless your heart for being a true peacemaker in the best sense of the word. It is amazing and encouraging to see people take the instruction of Christ seriously and demonstrate having sat at His feet.

Guard your heart. The internet can be a hostile, abrasive, unforgiving wasteland at times.

livingtemple said:

Your loving concern is heartfelt, healing and a blessing to read - thank you, thank you, thank you. I showed my husband Marco your post and he expressed an appreciation for all you said so thanks from him as well.

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I appreciate you seeing my heart in this. Thank you. God bless you both as you minister online and IRL.