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You must be reading different post than I am then.
I apologize to anyone for any posts that may have caused offense, and ask for their forgiveness as I can be very direct sometimes. Lets work our way through the issue in a Christian manner the way it should be without causing our brothers and sisters distress or harm in our posts.
David, can you give us a brief breakdown of what issues are brought up in the book...
I went to this tagnet site and I am so sad to see such lies! I can't even find a name of the writer, are they so cowardly they cannot show their name? They say that HS teaches that
1. We don't need to keep the ten commandments, because we are friends with God.
2. That they teach enlightenment just like the new age movement--I found nothing weird like that only comparing scripture upon scripture for what they teach.
3. That they teach that Jesus is not the same as the OT God and surely any of you who have been over there know that is not true!
I guess I had no idea how they have misconstrued a beautiful message of truth and no one is trying to cause division in the church more than someone who thinks they have it all right and wants to point the finger at someone else.
Cherie
3. That they teach that Jesus is not the same as the OT God
Thank you for such a polite questioning. I don't speak for HS.com any more than you speak for the SDA church. We are part of a movement in which there is much diversity and people have different levels of understanding.Hello Cherie,
This thread is actually the first time of hearing of HS.com. But based on what I am reading in this post and other post at HS.com, it is clear that something is different then what is "normally" done in the SDA church. So the question boils down to, what is the difference? I think people need details here. So far, it appears no one can get a clear answer. I am sure you know that Satin operates by mixing truth with lies. No body wants to fall into Satins traps. Thanks again.
BTW, this is an open question to anyone who can answer it. Thanks.
Thank you for such a polite questioning. I don't speak for HS.com any more than you speak for the SDA church. We are part of a movement in which there is much diversity and people have different levels of understanding.
When I read that tagnet article against HS.com, I just wanted to cry. The only other time I have had such a visceral reaction was when I went to a site that totally trashed Ellen White. In a situation like this the twisted deceptions could only be done by a master mind evil being and I am not talking human. We wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities and evil angels.
Right off the top I can spot several untruths and false accusations against HS.com so I will list the tagnet author's words in italics and then share my opinion with you. Even then, I hope you don't take my word for it, but I hope you go to HS.com and do the research yourselves.
1. “The insinuation is made that the Jesus of the New Testament is different in character from the Jehovah of the Old Testament. To justify their theory, they misuse an Ellen White quote to make us think that all we can ever know about God was revealed in the New Testament in the life of Jesus. They brush aside the truth that the character of Jesus is revealed all throughout the Old Testament, and that Jesus Himself claimed to be the Jehovah of the Old Testament.”
Absolutely untrue!!! The emphasis over there is to look at the entire Bible through the character of Jesus who came to reveal the Father and IS the God of the OT! The Bible says that "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever." Hebrews 1 says that God speaks to us these days through His Son Jesus, who is the exact representation of the Father.
There are many people who fail to understand why Moses would say stone a woman and Jesus would say forgive her. The GNT answer is that Jesus as God of the OT was dealing with a people who worshipped idols and had all kinds of pagan habits. If He had spared the lives of the wicked then there eventually would have been so many bad apples that there would not be any humans left that were not corrupted.
2. “Those in the false character of God movement claim that Christ would never order the destruction of the enemies of God’s people…”
Absolutely not true again!!! Someone may have posted their own opinion over there, but I do not think they teach this either. God has killed in a flood and other times with His strange acts. There is an emphasis on the difference between God putting some of His evil children to sleep to protect the innocent ones, but that is different than the final death of the wicked.
3. .”Any commentary that Ellen White makes regarding God's destruction of the wicked is relegated to merely her opinion.
Once again entirely untrue!!! If anything, they use her quotes which are ignored by most mainstream SDA like this one:
"The principles of the divine government are in perfect harmony with the Saviour’s precept, "Love your enemies." God executes justice upon the wicked, for the good of the universe, AND EVEN FOR THE GOOD OF THOSE UPON WHOM HIS JUDGMENTS ARE VISITED. He would make them happy if He could do so in accordance with the laws of His government and the justice of His character. He surrounds them with the tokens of His love, He grants them a knowledge of His law, and follows them with the offers of His mercy; but they despise His love, make void His law, and reject His mercy. While constantly receiving His gifts, they dishonor the Giver; they hate God because they know that He abhors their sins. The Lord bears long with their perversity; but the decisive hour will come at last, when their destiny is to be decided. Will He then chain these rebels to His side? Will He force them to do His will? {GC 541.4}
"Those who have chosen Satan as their leader and have been controlled by his power are not prepared to enter the presence of God. Pride, deception, licentiousness, cruelty, have become fixed in their characters. Can they enter heaven to dwell forever with those whom they despised and hated on earth? Truth will never be agreeable to a liar; meekness will not satisfy self-esteem and pride; purity is not acceptable to the corrupt; disinterested love does not appear attractive to the selfish. What source of enjoyment could heaven offer to those who are wholly absorbed in earthly and selfish interests? {GC 542.1}
"Could those whose lives have been spent in rebellion against God be suddenly transported to heaven and witness the high, the holy state of perfection that ever exists there,-- every soul filled with love, every countenance beaming with joy, enrapturing music in melodious strains rising in honor of God and the Lamb, and ceaseless streams of light flowing upon the redeemed from the face of Him who sitteth upon the throne,--could those whose hearts are filled with hatred of God, of truth and holiness, mingle with the heavenly throng and join their songs of praise? Could they endure the glory of God and the Lamb? No, no; years of probation [BEGIN P.543] were granted them, that they might form characters for heaven; but they have never trained the mind to love purity; they have never learned the language of heaven, and now it is too late. A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God. {GC 542.2}
God bless you for reading this. May He bless HS.com and may He help those who are working against His people to see the errors of their ways-- and bless them too with His true justice which is to bring all that are willing over to His side of the conflict.
Cherie
Free thinking has always been a threat to darkness for by free thinking, we are guaranteed to find truth. This is why Satan and his minions work hardest not in the porn industry or crack house but behind the the church doors.
Cherie,
"We are part of a movement in which there is much diversity and people have different levels of understanding."
You said it! What is probably very clear to some and perplexing to others is that SDAs are indeed diverse and its okay to be diverse. Unfortunately, the sda church is no different any other church or organization or group that contains human beings ... and where there are humans there's bound to be problems.
Its seems to me that the core of this problem is always fear of thinking for oneself and then fear of others thinking for themselves. If one is satisfied and secure in their belief system and they enjoy the freedom of living according to the dictates of their own concience - then they are comfortable with others doing the same. Even if they meet a paradigm that is diametrically opposed to their own - their recovery from the initial shock will probably be much more rapid opposed to a concretist who is forceful and manipulative. Cognitive dissonance is the finest litmus test for revealing who is worst infected by the "control" virus.
Free thinking has always been a threat to darkness for by free thinking, we are guaranteed to find truth. This is why Satan and his minions work hardest not in the porn industry or crack house but behind the the church doors.
-Stacie
Cherie,
Thank you for your comments and your perspective on the criticism made about HS.com. While the author makes bold and what appears to be harsh statements, I can understand where hes coming from (just being honest). After all, it appears that HS sponsors whats called "The Good News Tours" and this tour visits many SDA churches and youth groups such as the Pathfinders. As such, if there is an opinion that differs from mainstream SDA, I think people have a right to know up front what their children are being taught, weather the sponsoring group believes there interpretation to be right or wrong.
Now, specific to you argument (and I do not want to get too off topic here), are you subscribing to the notion that God does not destroy the wicked in a physical act but that the wicked destroy themselves? And how exactly does that unfold? I do not know if I could go as far as saying mainstream SDA ignore the verses you presented. I consider myself to be a subscriber to that mainstream SDA philosphy and think they fit in perfectly with what I believe to be true about Ellens inspired writing and scripture.
Now I was viewing one of the articles on the main HS.com site about justification, I have a major disagreement here with the authors point of view on justification and I could not imagine a "mainstream SDA" church endorsing this type of article. Although I could be wrong about that last statement, the author does acknowlege the discrepency between the mainstream belief but refers to it as a type of confusion that many Adventist have. Here is the link below.
To sum up my thoughts on this, I think he ignores certain verses in scripture that teaches past justification and future justification. In addition, it seems to me that he claims that once one is justified, he is saved and automatically acquires eternal life despite his actions thereafter. Therefore, he writes that keeping the commandments while no longer necessary for salvation is more appropriate for living a practical, good and healthy life. I think this contradicts a fundamental principal in scripture and mainstream SDA theology. Again, I would want to know up front if I or my family is being subject to this type of information. Of course, I do not mind anyone teaching their doctrine, but it should not be done under the guise of SDA in my humble opinion.
Thanks for listening Cherie. Please do not hesitate to correct any of my misunderstandings.
Nobody is truly a "free thinker." Everyone has filters or develop filters and most of the time are unaware that they are their. Even people who are cognizant that they have these filters still cannot avoid using there filters. For example, a lot of Atheist think they are free thinkers but are unaware that they actually following deception.
I think these filters will be removed once we get to Heaven.
True, and yet God has given us freedom to choose and freedom of speech and thought so how much more should we encourage it and extend it to others--especially when they claim to be our brothers and sisters in the Lord, who are we to judge the tares?
Cherie
I know you're going to think I'm trying to be cagey but it is really impossible to answer your question without knowing exactly what you mean by "sola scripture". There is a thread on HeavenlySancuary.com on this very subject and it is long and non-trivial. But I'll do my best to tell you how I see things.I might have misunderstood, so let me get to the root of it by asking a question. Are you "sola scripture" in your beliefs? That goes for old and new testament. Straight foward answer appreciated.Thanks.
Cherie,
"We are part of a movement in which there is much diversity and people have different levels of understanding."
You said it! What is probably very clear to some and perplexing to others is that SDAs are indeed diverse and its okay to be diverse. Unfortunately, the sda church is no different any other church or organization or group that contains human beings ... and where there are humans there's bound to be problems.
Its seems to me that the core of this problem is always fear of thinking for oneself and then fear of others thinking for themselves. If one is satisfied and secure in their belief system and they enjoy the freedom of living according to the dictates of their own concience - then they are comfortable with others doing the same. Even if they meet a paradigm that is diametrically opposed to their own - their recovery from the initial shock will probably be much more rapid opposed to a concretist who is forceful and manipulative. Cognitive dissonance is the finest litmus test for revealing who is worst infected by the "control" virus.
Free thinking has always been a threat to darkness for by free thinking, we are guaranteed to find truth. This is why Satan and his minions work hardest not in the porn industry or crack house but behind the the church doors.
-Stacie
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