The Constantine Creed

[Thomas L Cossette]

Danny ski

I could not agree with you more your observation is spot on. clinging to the Nicaea or Constantine creed is like spitting into the wind.

As a Messianic I think embracing those creeds is as stupid as saying Yeshua was a Pharisee.

 

[MessianicMommy]

You guys might want to read:

The other question — is this Nicene? — must be answered in the negative. There is no trace of such a statement in all this. No, this is a medieval Greek catechism, for someone converting to Christianity from Judaism.

also of note:

Note that Constantine did not make Christianity into the official religion of the state. That was Theodosius I, ca. 390 A.D. He legalised Christianity.

Hunting the wild (mis)quotation at Roger Pearse

As well as Jesus Wars: How Four Patriarchs, Three Queens, and Two Emperors Decided What Christians Would Believe for the Next 1,500 years

This quote in the OP seems to only be half truth.

Would the Rabbinic Judaism of today allow Jews who believe in Yeshua to be part of it?

That would be a negative.

 

[ContraMundum]

The Constantine Creed

“I renounce all customs, rites, legalisms, unleavened breads and sacrifices of lambs of the Hebrews, and all the other feasts of the Hebrews, sacrifices, prayers, aspirations, purifications, sanctifications, and propitiations, and fasts and new moons, and Sabbaths, and superstitions, and hymns and chants, and observances and synagogues. absolutely everything Jewish, every Law, rite and custom and if afterwards I shall wish to deny and return to Jewish superstition, or shall be found eating with Jews, or feasting with them, or secretly conversing and condemning the Christian religion instead of openly confuting them and condemning their vain faith, then let the trembling of Cain and the leprosy of Gehazi cleave to me, as well as the legal punishments to which I acknowledge myself liable. And may I be an anathema in the world to come, and may my soul be set down with Satan and the devils.”
(Stefano Assemani, Acta Sanctorium Martyrum Orientalium at Occidentalium, Vol. 1, Rome 1748, page 105)

You do realize that this doesn't come from the Emperor Constantine, but from a much later Greek Orthodox source. It's just standard anti-semitism. Not kosher, not orthodox as far as Christianity or the Bible is concerned, not universally accepted by Christians, and not even worthy of comment in most Christian histories.

It does read like a summary of Chrysostom's litany of complaints against the Jews. No doubt it was snipped from there. It was obviously intended as a vow for converts to Eastern Orthodoxy. In the old Eastern Orthodox culture, you had to adopt their culture and religion and abandon your own. This is at the root of why they re-baptise and re-marry a Christian couple becoming Orthodox in some churches to this day. You learn their language, their culture, their religion etc. In fact, in some Greek churches they will send you away to another church if you are not Greek. This happened to a friend of mine only three years ago. But that's beside the point.

I don't know why so many people on this forum jump at the word "Constantine". He really isn't all that important in the big picture. It's really a remnant of the poor anti-establishment JW-type junk kicking around in the 1800's to think that all of ones complaints against the established churches can be laid at the feet of some dead guy.

 

[Dusky Mouse]

Anti-semitism is quite different than being anti-Judaism. Anti-Semitism is hatred of a race of people. Being "anti-Judaism" is just that. If you believe Yeshua is the Moshiach and you are Jewish, you are a Christian by faith. Ask any Jew who practices Rabbinic Judaism as we know it today and they will tell you that. There is being Jewish by race and there is being Jewish by faith/religion. Yeshua said there are Jews who say they are Jews and are not. We have our father Abraham...John 8:38-59. this in and of itself should show you the great divide that was to occur...

Forgive my ignorance, I have to ask for clarification here because your faith icon denotes 'eastern Orthodox'.
When you say, 'we' , and make reference to father Abraham and John 8:38-59
(The truth will set you free), and that the great divide has to occur, what exactly are you saying?
That the Jews are wrong in their faith? Who is "our father Abraham", if not also father to the Jews?

Is a Jew by faith, not birth, still a Jew according to the Jews and their faith? When Jesus said there are those who say they are Jews and they are not, what would you take that to mean?

How would Constantine be anti-Jewish and yet foster a creed committed to that what surrounds the faith of a Jewish Messiah?

Thank you for your indulgence with my questions. Anyone who may enlighten with the answers are also welcome to respond.

 

[visionary]

You do realize that this doesn't come from the Emperor Constantine, but from a much later Greek Orthodox source. It's just standard anti-semitism. Not kosher, not orthodox as far as Christianity or the Bible is concerned, not universally accepted by Christians, and not even worthy of comment in most Christian histories.

It does read like a summary of Chrysostom's litany of complaints against the Jews. No doubt it was snipped from there. It was obviously intended as a vow for converts to Eastern Orthodoxy. In the old Eastern Orthodox culture, you had to adopt their culture and religion and abandon your own. This is at the root of why they re-baptise and re-marry a Christian couple becoming Orthodox in some churches to this day. You learn their language, their culture, their religion etc. In fact, in some Greek churches they will send you away to another church if you are not Greek. This happened to a friend of mine only three years ago. But that's beside the point.

I don't know why so many people on this forum jump at the word "Constantine". He really isn't all that important in the big picture. It's really a remnant of the poor anti-establishment JW-type junk kicking around in the 1800's to think that all of ones complaints against the established churches can be laid at the feet of some dead guy.

That is like saying Obama is not key to the events now transpiring here in the US.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Forgive my ignorance, I have to ask for clarification here because your faith icon denotes 'eastern Orthodox'.
When you say, 'we' , and make reference to father Abraham and John 8:38-59
(The truth will set you free), and that the great divide has to occur, what exactly are you saying?
That the Jews are wrong in their faith? Who is "our father Abraham", if not also father to the Jews?

Is a Jew by faith, not birth, still a Jew according to the Jews and their faith? When Jesus said there are those who say they are Jews and they are not, what would you take that to mean?

How would Constantine be anti-Jewish and yet foster a creed committed to that what surrounds the faith of a Jewish Messiah?

Thank you for your indulgence with my questions. Anyone who may enlighten with the answers are also welcome to respond.

I am Orthodox and have never seen this quoted from Constantine so I was trying to figure out where it came from. What I was saying is that Yeshua was saying it. The Jews at the time thought they would be saved just because they were Jews and did not have to believe in Yeshua.

 

[danny ski]

I am Orthodox and have never seen this quoted from Constantine so I was trying to figure out where it came from. What I was saying is that Yeshua was saying it. The Jews at the time thought they would be saved just because they were Jews and did not have to believe in Yeshua.

Because these are not his words. This is a quote from Constantine "It was, in the first place, declared improper to follow the custom of the Jews in the celebration of this holy festival, because, their hands having been stained with crime, the minds of these wretched men are necessarily blinded. ... Let us, then, have nothing in common with the Jews, who are our adversaries. ... Let us ... studiously avoiding all contact with that evil way. ... For how can they entertain right views on any point who, after having compassed the death of the Lord, being out of their minds, are guided not by sound reason, but by an unrestrained passion, wherever their innate madness carries them. ... lest your pure minds should appear to share in the customs of a people so utterly depraved. ... Therefore, this irregularity must be corrected, in order that we may no more have any thing in common with those parricides and the murderers of our Lord. ... no single point in common with the perjury of the Jews."[3]

 

[Thomas L Cossette]

Because these are not his words. This is a quote from Constantine "It was, in the first place, declared improper to follow the custom of the Jews in the celebration of this holy festival, because, their hands having been stained with crime, the minds of these wretched men are necessarily blinded. ... Let us, then, have nothing in common with the Jews, who are our adversaries. ... Let us ... studiously avoiding all contact with that evil way. ... For how can they entertain right views on any point who, after having compassed the death of the Lord, being out of their minds, are guided not by sound reason, but by an unrestrained passion, wherever their innate madness carries them. ... lest your pure minds should appear to share in the customs of a people so utterly depraved. ... Therefore, this irregularity must be corrected, in order that we may no more have any thing in common with those parricides and the murderers of our Lord. ... no single point in common with the perjury of the Jews."[3]

This quote is also found in Edward Gibbon's work, The Rise And Fall Of The Roman Empire

 

[Dusky Mouse]

I am Orthodox and have never seen this quoted from Constantine so I was trying to figure out where it came from. What I was saying is that Yeshua was saying it. The Jews at the time thought they would be saved just because they were Jews and did not have to believe in Yeshua.

Understood. Thank you.
I thought the Jews were looking for the Messiah as a means of salvation as promised in their holy scripture. Why do they not accept Jesus as that prophecy fulfilled?

 

[HannibalFlavius]

Understood. Thank you.
I thought the Jews were looking for the Messiah as a means of salvation as promised in their holy scripture. Why do they not accept Jesus as that prophecy fulfilled?

Many wait on a man who will return the kingdom to Israel fulfilling all the prophecies which show the whole world bowing and bringing the wealth of the nations to their feet.

The promises are of a messiah who unites Judah and Israel and they go out and plunder the nations together being lead by a general.

Instead they get a religion who took everything that was sacred from them, the followers of this new messiah began hating and killing Israel, this Messiah does away with the law and kills Jews.

A religion with a 2000 year old hatred, and anti-Semitism.


And they are supposed to believe in a Messiah who does this?

A messiah who has abolished the laws of Moses and killed the children of Israel.

He sure doesn't look like a Messiah the Jews were promised.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Understood. Thank you.
I thought the Jews were looking for the Messiah as a means of salvation as promised in their holy scripture. Why do they not accept Jesus as that prophecy fulfilled?

Ask Danny Ski, he is here. I have my own opinions since I am a Christian.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

this Messiah does away with the law and kills Jews.

And they are supposed to believe in a Messiah who does this?

A messiah who has abolished the laws of Moses and killed the children of Israel.

Really? I can't wait to hear you explain that one!

 

[ContraMundum]

That is like saying Obama is not key to the events now transpiring here in the US.

??

Oh, I forgot. Obama is the new scapegoat. Gotcha. I know a guy in the US who has problems with the wiring in his house and the fact that his kid's in love with the wrong guy. I told him it was Obama's fault. He disagreed. He blamed the Jews.

 

[ContraMundum]

This quote is also found in Edward Gibbon's work, The Rise And Fall Of The Roman Empire

Further proof that Gibbon didn't do a thorough job and had an axe to grind.

Nice to see you finally getting his name right though.

 

[Thomas L Cossette]

Maybe.....or maybe not.... add all three, this post, with Gibbons work, and with what Lulav posted, and there is a consensus that he did say these things. And since he was emperor and at that time things started happening to the Jewish communities that Followed Yeshua as Messiah; along with every other group that was not part with the bishops that endorsed Constantine all were persecuted from the Gnostics, to the Ebonites, to the Nestorians, and the Nazarenes. All called heretics by Eusbibus in his own writings while those embracing the Constantine coup in the church flourished. preponderance, preponderance, preponderance!

I do think he said these things the way history plays out shows that he did say them or enacted them so.......

 

[Moriah Ruth 777]

Hi Hannibal,

The Jews at the time of Yeshua and even after were looking for an EARTHLY King to do away with what was going on around them. They were not looking for a Heavenly SPIRITUAL King. They were looking at the flesh part and not the heart.

However I do agree with you that the war and the Crusades were not a good idea that was among the Christians of their day. What was it they were trying to accomplish accept more war and hatred? And notice the Crusades were part of the Roman Catholic church.

Moriah Ruth

 

[WisdomTree]

Hi Hannibal,

The Jews at the time of Yeshua and even after were looking for an EARTHLY King to do away with what was going on around them. They were not looking for a Heavenly SPIRITUAL King. They were looking at the flesh part and not the heart.

However I do agree with you that the war and the Crusades were not a good idea that was among the Christians of their day. What was it they were trying to accomplish accept more war and hatred? And notice the Crusades were part of the Roman Catholic church.

Moriah Ruth

Ignoring everything else on this forum since I'm just a guest; the Crusades of the Catholic Church was initiated in response to the threat of the advent of Islam (which itself having risen from a Christian heresy), where the new Islamic Empire threatened the whole of Christendom, first by claiming the Holy City of Jerusalem. The Pope of Rome at the time asked the kings and nobles of Europe to "take up the cross" (hence "crusade") and to liberate the Eastern churches from their oppressors.

Though as history attest, the results were far from what was intended, especially the actions of the Venetians who sacked Constantinople (against the explicit order from the Pope) as well as some crusaders committing unspeakable acts of horror against the residents at the time (mostly Jews and Muslims).

 

[Moriah Ruth 777]

Wisdom, yes you are correct on the Crusades with the Christians and the Muslims. It is interesting though that Muslims state that we as Christians started the war and we as Christians state that the Muslims started the war. Only God knows. However there were some things that we did as Christians that were totally wrong. Some of us don't want to admit to it. I wonder what God would say when we stand before Him on Judgement Day?

 

[WisdomTree]

Wisdom, yes you are correct on the Crusades with the Christians and the Muslims. It is interesting though that Muslims state that we as Christians started the war and we as Christians state that the Muslims started the war. Only God knows. However there were some things that we did as Christians that were totally wrong. Some of us don't want to admit to it. I wonder what God would say when we stand before Him on Judgement Day?

"Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity."

 

[visionary]

Ignoring everything else on this forum since I'm just a guest; the Crusades of the Catholic Church was initiated in response to the threat of the advent of Islam (which itself having risen from a Christian heresy), where the new Islamic Empire threatened the whole of Christendom, first by claiming the Holy City of Jerusalem. The Pope of Rome at the time asked the kings and nobles of Europe to "take up the cross" (hence "crusade") and to liberate the Eastern churches from their oppressors.

Though as history attest, the results were far from what was intended, especially the actions of the Venetians who sacked Constantinople (against the explicit order from the Pope) as well as some crusaders committing unspeakable acts of horror against the residents at the time (mostly Jews and Muslims).

I think that you might want to change this story a tad... RCC crusade was after the Holy Land... against anyone of any faith that was in their way. The First Crusade (1096–1099) started as a widespread pilgrimage (France and Germany) and ended as a military expedition by Roman Catholic Europe to regain the Holy Lands taken in the Muslim conquests of the Levant (632–661), ultimately resulting in the recapture of Jerusalem in 1099 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Crusade