The Conscience: A Force for Good?

[Eudaimonist]

The point I was trying to make about Himmler was that he was acting counter to his conscience, and it was this that caused him to puke. Had his ideology been integrated with an objective morality of conscience, no such reaction would occur.

Wow, I wouldn't assume that. I think that you are reading more in to his reaction than was actually there. I don't think that the physical reaction was moral revulsion at the thought of murdering Jews and other undesirables. His sympathies were solely with the Germans who had to perform the executions. The integration strikes me as being present.

So, I cannot conceive of conscience that promotes indiscriminate genocide. Can you? Would such a conscience deserve the name of conscience?

Yes, it would be fully conscience. It would simply be a misinformed conscience.

And, the rationality that tells us what ought to be is inevitably founded on mindsets that have previously accepted, as axiomatic or assumptive, ideas about the way the world ought to be.

That doesn't matter. We spend time reasoning about what we ought to do, even if David Hume's dogmas are correct. That is how human beings function.

It doesn't matter that Himmler's reasoning may have been based on previous views about how the world ought to be, since that is also true of his conscience. His conscience is not something parallel to reason, but is rooted in prior reasoning, and is a possible spark to future reasoning. There is a great deal of interaction there -- a two-way cycle of cause and effect. It's not like we only ask what we ought to do when we feel the pang of conscience. Conscience may prod at times, but reasoning functions well in thinking about the oughts without that specific prodding.

If, like me, you think the world's wealth should be more justly distributed

-- I do not, if I take your meaning correctly --

reason can tell you how to get there.

It may also tell you that people ought to redistribute wealth in a more "just" way, not just how to do so. Reason will tell you what justice is and why it is important. Plato's philosophical dialog "The Republic" is a rational defense of certain views on justice, for instance.

What it can't do is provide the 'should' impetus to a political program that aims to bring such a result to be.

It does that every day.

That arises out of individual virtue, moral stature, or, indeed, obedience to conscience.

And virtue is inextricably tied to rationality. There is no virtue without reasoning and understanding, and not just about the hows, but about the whys as well.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Jack of Spades]

His sympathies were solely with the Germans who had to perform the executions.

As Himmler was a (something like) military leader, his actions should be first interpreted in that role, not so much as a human being. Chances are that his concern was most likely that of moral of his troops, rather than concerns of humanity on any side involved. He wanted to come up with a way that doesn't demoralize his men, as that would be bad leadership and compromise the quality of the troops under his command.

That kind of logic is highly typical for military leaders, they consider avoiding putting their troops in a morally uncomfortable situation a matter of management, and don't necessarily think it in terms of morals themselves. The moral dilemma the troops face is acknowledged in the same way as a military leader acknowledges problems in the army's bad diet or bad housing, the leader doesn't necessarily care about those things as a human being, but as a leader, it is his job to care about it as a way of ensuring the quality of his troops.

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

Hmmm. The point I was trying to make about Himmler was that he was acting counter to his conscience, and it was this that caused him to puke. Had his ideology been integrated with an objective morality of conscience, no such reaction would occur.

The instinctive revulsion we have to the sight of dead bodies is hardwired into us, and is ultimately about self-preservation rather than morality; whatever killed those people might well be a danger to us.

In fact, those whom Himmler ordered killed, he did so because he saw them as a danger to his country, which he had a duty to protect. He considered it a right and necessary thing to do. He even stated as much in his Posen speech:

Most of you know what it means when 100 bodies lie side by side, or when 500 or a 1,000 lie there. To have stuck it out – apart from exceptions caused by human weakness – and to have remained decent, that has made us tough. This is a glorious entry in our history which has never been written, and can never be written. For we know how difficult it would be for us if we still had the Jews, as secret saboteurs, agitators and trouble makers, amongst us now, in every city on top of the bombing raids, together with the suffering and deprivations of the war. We would probably already be in the same situation as in 1916/17 if the Jews were still part of the body of the German people.

Believing that, it seems likely that his conscience was quite okay with whole thing. It doesn't even require ideology. Apolitical thugs can come up with rationale like this as well. "He was selling drugs on our turf without paying the tax. I have to support my bros. If let him get away with that, our street cred would be done. Nobody would take us seriously."

So, I cannot conceive of conscience that promotes indiscriminate genocide. Can you? Would such a conscience deserve the name of conscience?

Just because you or I cannot relate to it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. It seems that you are begging your own question by defining conscience as a force for good. When it ceases to be a force for good, it ceases to be conscience.

 

[Deidre32]

I think a person's conscience is a voice for change, not necessarily good. Someone might not have a well formed conscience or not one at all (a sociopath/narcissist). But, if someone has a well formed conscience, whereby he/she knows right from wrong, then the conscience will steer the person towards growth. Just how I've come to see it, anyways.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

I noticed when I believed in God, I think my conscience was more sensitive.

I see this like a white wall which brings out the dirt in other things by contrast.

 

[bhsmte]

So, I'm wondering what part the idea of the conscience plays in your world view?

Is it the sole and sovereign determination of what is right? Is it subject to distortion by an inevitably sinful nature? Should the pursuit of the dictates of one's conscience, after the right to life, be the most essential of human rights? Should we be suspicious of consciences, being as how they may be the product of a partial (ie biased and incomplete) understanding of the universe?

Best wishes, Strivax.

The conscience plays a role in determining a person's actions and what they can internally accept and live with.

Ton's of variables are in play here, to determine what each person's conscience, will allow them to do, regarding behavior.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

Conscience is plastic, elastic and sometimes gymnastic.

 

[Strivax]

The Christian concept of conscience, an "inner voice" pointing people the right way, is not something universal to everybody, but something that develops with spiritual maturity.

There is no virtue without reasoning and understanding, and not just about the hows, but about the whys as well.

As Himmler was a (something like) military leader, his actions should be first interpreted in that role, not so much as a human being. Chances are that his concern was most likely that of moral of his troops, rather than concerns of humanity on any side involved.

OK, I guess my attitude is that the conscience is a universal psychological reality that tells us what is right. We individuals, and society at large, and social sub-cultures, may invoke rational or emotional reasons to tell us why we should not do right, or, indeed, positively do wrong, but this is not our conscience speaking, only our myopic perceptions of our own self-interest. The conscience is not wrong, just the ways we seek to override it, and may mistake for conscience. But if we do choose to override our consciences, that sets up a mental dissonance that is not pleasant to live with, and sub-optimal physical states of the world.

Best wishes, Strivax