BelieveItOarKnot
Rom 11:32-God bound everyone to disobedience so...
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Looks like 4 words from Michael sent Satan packingMethinks Michael knows his limitations.
Looks like 4 words from Michael sent Satan packing
Just because they fell does not mean they still do no look like us or other angels. They will be here sometime in the future, that is a reality.Does not apply to Satan or devils. Sorry
All are under sin but not all have found repentance therefore. having their sins washed away. We see even at the end in Revelation, some will not repent. That is on them.We're no better than any other sinners. Romans 3:8
It's good to know every word, yes but specific verses do not apply to everyone. For example, not everyone is going to be thrown into the Lake of Fire. Only those not written in the book in the book of like. We have to take the bible as a whole but we can make distinctions within the word and how it applies to different people.It's not optional and every word of God applies to everyone,
Satan and his subsequent seeds have been on/in the earth from day 1 of mankindJust because they fell does not mean they still do no look like us or other angels. They will be here sometime in the future, that is a reality.
Satan and his messengers are both angels and spirits, wicked/evil onesAgain, I don't think Michael and his angels were literally fighting spirits. They were fighting other angels.
We've done this drill numerous times. No one hecomes sinless before or after repentance---> because the tempter remains involved within everyone and is the evil present within us all.All are under sin but not all have found repentance therefore.
Sins aren't counted against people to start with. What believers are supposed to know from the Word is that we are not the sin/evil present with us. Thetefore we know our division from it.having their sins washed away.
Devils never repent and even if they did it's a lieWe see even at the end in Revelation, some will not repent. That is on them.
Whatever. You're position flounders the instant you claim you're sinless in any case. Such phonies openly show they're under control of liars and should be avoidedAnd remember through faith in his blood Christ is the propitiation for the remission of sins past.
Every word of God applies to everyone.It's good to know every word, yes but specific verses do not apply to everyone.
The spirit of disobedience that is within all people will therein be tossed into the LoFFor example, not everyone is going to be thrown into the Lake of Fire.
Well God will save you, but not your flesh captor, so there's thatOnly those not written in the book in the book of like. We have to take the bible as a whole but we can make distinctions within the word and how it applies to different people.
Yes, evil spirits still roam around, etcSatan and his subsequent seeds have been on/in the earth from day 1 of mankind
God's word is not fantasy. I'm a scripture person first and foremost. If God tells me he will sit on the throne proclaiming to be God, I choose to believe that. I don't deal in fantasy such as the Left Behind books which are pure nonsense.ou may have bought into some tall tale of some sort or another from dime store end time fantasy novels
Yes, we have. No one becomes sinless but this verse is possible. A verse you continually ignore.No one hecomes sinless before or after repentance
Again, you claim to accept every word but then verses like this you don't believe?We are literally bound with our enemy in the flesh
I showed you the very verses that prove they do count. Christ states if someone doesn't repent and overcome after they have fallen in sin they are in danger of having their names blotted out. You can't insert Satan here. He is not in the book of life.Sins aren't counted against people to start with.
There is a division. Those who abide in Christ and those who don't. Satan and his have already been judged.Thetefore we know our division from it.
I'm talking about the people in Revelation that do not repent of their deeds. We aren't talking about devils.Devils never repent and even if they did it's a lie
Yeah, whatever, push aside verses as if they don't matter.Whatever.
Do you have a problem remembering previous posts? I want to call you a liar because I have never claimed that. I have spoken the exact opposite. So I'm thinking you might have a problem remembering everyone's posts and who has said what.You're position flounders the instant you claim you're sinless in any case.
There's no sense really going on if you're going to continually change God's word. I want to have honest conversations/debate within God's word.The spirit of disobedience that is within all people will therein be tossed into the LoF
It's a general foul to rule God's activity out of anything that transpires in His creation. That would actually be a Godless proposition. Not a fit position for believers.Isaiah 45:7 – “I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create evil (raʿ); I the Lord do all these things.”
Yes, evil spirits still roam around, etc
But this is still future-
Revelation 12:9 "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Sa'-tan, which deceived the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
That's the legitimate hatred of our own lives because of the presence of the tempter/evil within. Luke 14:26, Mark 7:21-23Revelation 12:11 "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."
Satan already sits in the temple of mankinds bodies, as the usurper he is.Revelation 12:12 "Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."
It was prophesized long ago that he would sit on the throne in the sides of the north proclaiming to be God. (disguised as that angel of light)
People have again been in this war from day 1. Satan deceives the whole world.Paul states that it's for "this evil day" that the gospel is armor must be in place.
You read future only in complete neglect of past and present. Nothing moreGod's word is not fantasy. I'm a scripture person first and foremost. If God tells me he will sit on the throne proclaiming to be God, I choose to believe that. I don't deal in fantasy such as the Left Behind books which are pure nonsense.
Again, no account of the adversary. Your position thinks quite falsely it's only you.Yes, we have. No one becomes sinless but this verse is possible. A verse you continually ignore.
Romans 12:2 "And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."
God's Will is expressed continually. The grand finale, which IS a final event, is when Satan and his messengers are sent to the flames.Have you seriously not went through this process? Do you not want to put God's will over your own?
And again you have a simple one side only sight that falsely justifies you, completely ignoring the facts of evil within and temptations of the tempter. IF this is not our reality there is no fight but with our own evil selves.Again, you claim to accept every word but then verses like this you don't believe?
Galatians 5:16 "This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh."
Romans 8:1 "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
This is simply putting God's will over our own. When we do that, naturally we do not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Well, glad you're kind of creeping up on the obvious.Is it a war within our flesh and spirit, yes,
The tempter and evil within will remain short, period. Your position just wiggles on the hook of reality trying to avoid the facts.of course and sometimes we do miss the mark and fall short.
Your will is incapable of making you sinless by your own admissions.But it's always been about putting God's will over our own. About walking in the spirit. Are you seriously not able to do this at all? Do you constantly live in sin without caring?
We don't overcome an adversary we claim not to have and engage. That engagement is internal.I showed you the very verses that prove they do count. Christ states if someone doesn't repent and overcome after they have fallen in sin they are in danger of having their names blotted out. You can't insert Satan here. He is not in the book of life.
Obviously Satan isn't repenting and your turning doesn't exempt you from the tempterThere is a division. Those who abide in Christ and those who don't. Satan and his have already been judged.
Why do you think God is so long suffering at this point? Because he's waiting on Satan and his to repent? Ridiculous.
You only want to look at people and never the adversaries unseen. A classic void in perceptionsIt's the people he doesn't want to perish and that should come to repentance. Meaning their sins do count against them. To say otherwise to would be to lie against God's Word.
I'm talking about the people in Revelation that do not repent of their deeds. We aren't talking about devils.
I just read your positions as continually excusing the scriptures you don't like to apply personally is all.Yeah, whatever, push aside verses as if they don't matter.
Do you have a problem remembering previous posts? I want to call you a liar because I have never claimed that. I have spoken the exact opposite. So I'm thinking you might have a problem remembering everyone's posts and who has said what.
I don't care for a half story that attempts to plaster over what I look forward to. The end of devils, a promise of the Gospel, and also part of truthful Christian hope.There's no sense really going on if you're going to continually change God's word. I want to have honest conversations/debate within God's word.
The scriptures speak for themselves. We'll see...Already happened, from day 1 of mankind.
Spin it howeverThe scriptures speak for themselves. We'll see...
As I stated on the other thread I guess we're finished. I'd rather take the bible as a whole and trust Christ's words on the second death, who's in danger of it, etc. This going back and forth is going nowhere.
Believe what you will.
Does this adversary have a free will?God "intentionally" created an adversary in the form of the antiChrist spirit, the spirit of disobedience, the DEVIL, Satan.
Nope. It's nothing more than robotic action. The switch will be turned off at some point and the antispiritual machinery will be shut down and tossed aside into the eternal fire junk pileDoes this adversary have a free will?
Evil is just a tool God uses to get his will done, without evil there is no freewill.Comic books/super hero movies are obsessed with balancing good vs evil. It makes good fiction, but it isn't reality.
If you look at the Biblical perspective, good existed for untold eternity before evil manifested itself. Evil is allowed to exist for a short period of time. Good is restored for eternity. Hardly opposites that balance one another. In the face of eternal good, a temporary evil never stood a chance.
You remind me of an old time member here named CaDan. Are you him?Jung: Quid pro quo, Father. You want to peer into my collective unconscious? Tell me first—what haunts the corridors of your own intellect? That moment when you gazed upon the divine and declared all your writings as straw. What did you see that silenced the Summa?
Aquinas: Bold, psychologist. Very well. It was a vision, not of words, but of essence—God as the unmoved Mover, pure act, beyond the quibbles of essence and existence. My tomes became chaff in the wind of eternity. Now, your turn. You speak of archetypes, these primordial images bubbling from the depths. Are they not echoes of the Forms, or perhaps the angels themselves, intermediaries between God and man?
Jung: Echoes? They are the architects of the psyche, Thomas—universal patterns etched into every soul, shaping myths, dreams, religions. Your angels might be one such archetype: messengers from the unconscious, not heaven. But tell me, quid pro quo—what terrors did you face in reconciling the pagan philosopher with your Christian God? Did doubt ever creep in, like a shadow self, whispering that the Prime Mover might not be your Yahweh?
Aquinas: Doubt? The intellect seeks truth as the will seeks good. Aristotle's errors were veils, lifted by grace. No shadow self, but the light of faith illuminating reason. Yet you, Jung, posit a collective unconscious—a sea of inherited memories. Is this not akin to original sin, a shared wound in humanity's soul? Or do you deny the Fall, seeing it as mere myth?
Jung: Myth? Myths are the language of the soul, more real than your scholastic distinctions. Original sin could be the archetype of the wounded healer—the expulsion from Eden as the birth of consciousness from blissful ignorance. But quid pro quo, Saint Thomas. In your visions of heaven, did you ever encounter the anima—the feminine soul within the man? Or was your God too patriarchal, suppressing the Sophia that whispers wisdom?
Aquinas: Sophia is divine Wisdom, personified in Christ, not some inner siren. But your anima intrigues—perhaps a reflection of Mary, the mediatrix of graces. Suppress? No, integrate, as I did faith and reason. Now, reveal: your shadow, this dark side you claim we all harbor. Is it the devil incarnate, or merely untamed passion? How does one confront it without falling into heresy?
Jung: The shadow is the unlived life, Thomas—the parts we deny, projecting onto others as evil. Your devil might be humanity's collective shadow, externalized in theology. To confront it? Integration, not exorcism. Face it in dreams, in active imagination. But tell me, quid pro quo—what would you ask of your own shadow if it appeared before you? That corpulent friar wrestling with the temptations of the flesh, or the intellect's pride?
Aquinas: Pride? The sin of angels. If my shadow appeared, I would question it as I did the philosophers: What truth do you hide? For even darkness serves the greater light. Your methods sound like alchemy—transmuting base metals of the psyche into gold. Is God the philosopher's stone in your system, or merely a symbol?
Jung: God as archetype—the Self, the mandala of wholeness. Not your personal deity, but the unifying force in the psyche. Alchemy was the precursor to psychology, turning inner lead to spiritual gold. But quid pro quo ends here, Thomas. You've given me a feast for thought; take this: The soul is not just immortal—it's infinite, a microcosm of the cosmos, where your angels dance with my archetypes in eternal dialogue.
Aquinas: Then let us continue this dance, Dr. Jung. For in seeking, we find not answers, but deeper questions.
Jung: Quid pro quo: You've integrated faith and reason like a master builder. But what of the alchemists you dismissed as heretics? Their transmutations—were they not shadows of your own eucharistic mysteries, turning bread into divine substance?
Aquinas: Alchemists chased illusions, mistaking matter for spirit. The Eucharist is no metaphor, but real presence—substance changed while accidents remain. Yet your psychology alchemizes the soul itself. Tell me, does this process heal, or merely delude? Is the Self you pursue God, or a golden calf forged in the fires of ego?
Jung: Healing comes from integration, not suppression. The Self is the God-image within, not your transcendent Other. But delusion? Ah, that's the risk of any quest. Quid pro quo, Father: In your Summa, you argue for God's existence through five ways. Which one whispers doubt in the quiet hours? The unmoved Mover, perhaps, who might as well be the impersonal force of nature, devoid of your loving Trinity?
Aquinas: Doubt is the forge of faith; it tempers belief. The ways are demonstrations, not whispers—motion, causation, necessity, degrees, design—all pointing to the First Cause. Nature's force? Mere secondary causation, animated by the Prime. But you, Jung, with your synchronicity—meaningful coincidences without cause. Is this not providence in secular guise, or chaos masquerading as order?
Jung: Synchronicity bridges the psyche and the world, acausal yet meaningful, like your miracles but without divine intervention. It's the universe winking at the soul. Quid pro quo: Your celibacy, Thomas—the denial of the body for the spirit. Did the anima ever rebel, appearing in dreams as temptress or muse? Or did you sublimate her into your devotion to the Virgin?
Aquinas: The body is the soul's instrument, not its prison. Celibacy frees the intellect for higher unions. Dreams? They are sense impressions reordered by reason, not sirens from the depths. Yet your anima as inner woman—perhaps a dim reflection of Eve redeemed, or Wisdom calling in the streets. Now, confront this: Your mandala, the circle of wholeness. Is it not the wheel of samsara, trapping souls in cycles, or does it echo the eternal return to God?
Jung: The mandala is the psyche's compass, guiding through chaos to center. Not entrapment, but liberation from one-sidedness. Your heaven might be the ultimate mandala—hierarchies of angels orbiting the divine. But quid pro quo: What if your vision at Mass, that mystical ecstasy, was not God but the eruption of the unconscious? A peak experience, as I'd call it, dissolving the ego in archetypal flood.
Aquinas: Blasphemy or insight? The vision was grace, not eruption—union with the Infinite, where words fail. If your unconscious holds such power, then perhaps it is the soul's antechamber to God. But tell me of your Red Book, those visions you chronicled. Were they divine inspirations, or dialogues with demons? Did Philemon, your spirit guide, bear wings like Gabriel?
Jung: Philemon was an archetype, a wiser self emerging from the depths—not demon, but daimon, in the ancient sense. The Red Book was my confrontation with the unconscious, a voluntary madness to find sanity. Quid pro quo ends not yet, Thomas. In your era, heresy burned at the stake. What modern heresy haunts you now? Freud's id, perhaps, reducing soul to sex drive?
Aquinas: Heresy is error persisted in willfully. Freud's drives are passions unchecked, but the soul transcends them through virtue. Yet your collective unconscious might house the virtues themselves—innate potentials for good. One last exchange: If we met in the afterlife, would your archetypes bow to my angels, or merge in some grand synthesis?
Jung: Synthesis, always synthesis—that's the alchemical wedding. Angels and archetypes dancing in the great mandala of existence. Until then, Thomas, keep questioning. The soul thrives on it.
Aquinas: As does the mind. Farewell, seeker of shadows. May light find you.
[The chamber fades, echoes of their words lingering like incense, bridging centuries in an unending pursuit of truth.]
Point 1, good!Evil is just a tool God uses to get his will done, without evil there is no freewill.
Let me explain what I was thinking.Point 1, good!
Point 2 doesn't necessarily follow. There is exactly none of us that are apart from God's Direct influences internally OR the influences of the adversary internally. Therefore freewill is, well, kind of nonsense. There are, scripturally, 3 wills in operation within mankind, which makes freewill a moot point.
Plus it's technically a Godless claim to start with. Man claiming God is not in them, in their will.
People only believe it so they have some basis to pat themselves on the back for making the right decisions to get into heaven. Sure ya did.
My general objection to such stances is that there is nothing that transpires in creation that God is not involved in in some way. Evil does transpire in the midst of Omnipresence, as well as sin and death.Let me explain what I was thinking.
Freewill is our ability to make a choice that's all if their is no choice, like Calvinism teaches, their is no freewill.
I'd suggest that no person acts apart from Divine and unseen influences, one way or another. Therefore there is no "blame" necessary. IF God wanted all of us to believe He could make it happen in an instant, just as He did many times with many people. None of us choose our way into God. He chose us, for whatever that brings.Yes ultimately Gods plan will be done, I believe that its Gods will that none should perish but for all to come to the knowledge of the truth, Gods will must and will be done but within that will we are given choices to either follow Jesus now in our mortal body, which has the greatest reward or to choose him through purgation which has a loss of inheritance. These are real choices on our part but without choice we are merely robots.
You're presuming these choices transpire in a vacuum. I think that's just a ridiculous posture that isolates God from the equations.God because he is outside of time knows what are choices will be,
Then you are promoting a Godless position, is a general point of fact.so he knows the beginning from the end, but we still have to make those choices and each has its own consequences but God does not make our choices for us as Calvinist think ,
I appreciate the back tracking attempt, but you can't play it both ways my friend.does the Father help us and is he involved with our lives, yes he can do whatever he wants, but we are responsible for our actions.
I'd have a bit of a different take on Romans and the lump, the question being why has God made me thus? A vessel of honor and a vessel of dishonor in the same lump. Universally applied. And God's choice which is dominant.I see this in the Romans letter that compares all humanity to a lump of clay some for noble use some for common, our choices are what make us either noble or common, but its our choice, even if the Father knows what choice we will make.
And to that we agree, which is a good thingIn the end the Father will be all in all, on the new heaven and a new earth.
I think that so much of our trying to understand the Father gets messed up when we forget that the Godhead is infinite and we are finite.My general objection to such stances is that there is nothing that transpires in creation that God is not involved in in some way. Evil does transpire in the midst of Omnipresence, as well as sin and death.
Therefore...do the math
We're faced with 2 basic postures when this reality hits. We can either isolate God and provide excuses for Him
or
We can believe that God is greater than anything that happens and can make it all seem as nothing, which is what I believe happens.
Let the worlds turn to dust. It will not matter in the face of Eternity.
I'd suggest that no person acts apart from Divine and unseen influences, one way or another. Therefore there is no "blame" necessary. IF God wanted all of us to believe He could make it happen in an instant, just as He did many times with many people. None of us choose our way into God. He chose us, for whatever that brings.
You're presuming these choices transpire in a vacuum. I think that's just a ridiculous posture that isolates God from the equations.
Then you are promoting a Godless position, is a general point of fact.
I appreciate the back tracking attempt, but you can't play it both ways my friend.
I'd have a bit of a different take on Romans and the lump, the question being why has God made me thus? A vessel of honor and a vessel of dishonor in the same lump. Universally applied. And God's choice which is dominant.
God raised Pharaoh to resist. What Pharaoh thought about it really doesn't matter. God has POWER OVER him, and used it to turn against Israel and force a separation.
This also happens to us, individually, when we are born again. We turn against our own pharaoh, the tempter or his own. Which we had no clue about prior to salvation.
You see, there really are things going on, unseen. And sadly still unknown to believers who should know better.
And to that we agree, which is a good thing
Who can complain about Perfection running everything? Not me, for sure.
Then good and evil are just arbitrary constructs. Both equally of God and of his will.Nope. It's nothing more than robotic action. The switch will be turned off at some point and the antispiritual machinery will be shut down and tossed aside into the eternal fire junk pile
And on we will go
My general objection to such stances is that there is nothing that transpires in creation that God is not involved in in some way. Evil does transpire in the midst of Omnipresence, as well as sin and death.
Therefore...do the math
We're faced with 2 basic postures when this reality hits. We can either isolate God and provide excuses for Him
or
We can believe that God is greater than anything that happens and can make it all seem as nothing, which is what I believe happens.
Let the worlds turn to dust. It will not matter in the face of Eternity.
I'd suggest that no person acts apart from Divine and unseen influences, one way or another. Therefore there is no "blame" necessary. IF God wanted all of us to believe He could make it happen in an instant, just as He did many times with many people. None of us choose our way into God. He chose us, for whatever that brings.
You're presuming these choices transpire in a vacuum. I think that's just a ridiculous posture that isolates God from the equations.
Then you are promoting a Godless position, is a general point of fact.
I appreciate the back tracking attempt, but you can't play it both ways my friend.
I'd have a bit of a different take on Romans and the lump, the question being why has God made me thus? A vessel of honor and a vessel of dishonor in the same lump. Universally applied. And God's choice which is dominant.
God raised Pharaoh to resist. What Pharaoh thought about it really doesn't matter. God has POWER OVER him, and used it to turn against Israel and force a separation.
This also happens to us, individually, when we are born again. We turn against our own pharaoh, the tempter or his own. Which we had no clue about prior to salvation.
You see, there really are things going on, unseen. And sadly still unknown to believers who should know better.
And to that we agree, which is a good thing
Who can complain about Perfection running everything? Not me, for sure.
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