Then those people are making the error of imbuing a symbol with an inherent meaning. I contend no such thing exists.
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Then those people are making the error of imbuing a symbol with an inherent meaning. I contend no such thing exists.Yeah it's still a racist symbol even if the person flying it claims they are not racist. It's like an atheist having crucifixes and crosses in his yard and saying "to me it doesn't represent God and Christianity". They are still symbols of Christianity even if it doesn't seem that way to you. It doesn't make sense, it's illogical to fly symbols of something if you don't believe in or agree with what those symbols represent. It makes a person look crazy. An atheist would look crazy having crosses and crucifixes in their yard yet saying they are atheist and don't believe in Christianity and those symbols don't mean Christianity to them. You would think deep down that atheist really believes in God and is lying to himself.... And even you claim it doesn't represent that to you, still to most people who see crosses and crucifixes, it represents God or Christianity just like no matter how much you try to say that confederate rag doesn't mean the same to you, to most people that's what it represents.
Yep, been to the US, including the South. I remember the horrible case you mentioned.Have you ever been to America, specifically the South?
Because of the removal of the country flags, I didn't know you were from Australia.
Let me put my own location into perspective: I'm from the South. In fact, I'm from an area where the KKK is still active. Not too many years ago, a nearby town made national news after the horrible murder of a black man (dragged to death behind a truck by white supremacists who offered him a ride). I see innumerable confederate flags daily, along with a fair share of Nazi-styled swastikas (no flags, mostly stickers and visible tattoos). I would say about 30% of the time, I see these two symbols around the same person.
Perhaps my upbringing has made me connect these symbol and ideals more than someone who has not lived in this area. I don't know what your personal experience with these symbols has been, and I would be interested in learning so that maybe we could understand why we feel differently about them.
I agree with you, to a point. The symbol didn't enslave people, people did. The problem is that the symbol is now guilty by association with people who support racism. So when people see the symbol, they immediately invoke an emotional response just like they would to racism.The entirety of my point, is that the racism isn't inherent in any symbol, and that is someone uses such a symbol with no racist intent, it's not a racist symbol, because how can a symbol, in and of itself, be racist?
I was just pointing out the treasonous aspect of the confederate flag. Much like the American flag would have been a treasonous symbol to you folk. Just as an extra aside from the whole racism/slavery thing.I doubt anyone flies the US flag from their house. Some probably wear the US flags on clothing though. And no one would think that's bad.
I don't see how that's the same though. The US was against slavery (eventually). The Confederacy was always in favour of slavery, and retaining slavery was a main motivation for it's existence.
As 'Holoman' said, a normal person flying our own flag can be seen as potentially racist, and I'd see strong nationalism as being associated with Nazism.
I like that graphic. Cool find.A symbol can promote a racist ideology based on its history and how it was used.
I'll use the fandom example you were using earlier: Dukes of Hazzard.
The right way to publicly display membership to a fandom is to display a symbol that another fan can immediately link to that fandom. Otherwise, no one knows you're a fan, which totally defeats the purpose of publicly displaying your love of the fandom.
Just a Confederate flag doesn't really link you to the fandom at all, because it kind of has a BIG historical meaning outside the fandom. It's used by people that aren't in the fandom at all for their own reasons, which makes things confusing. If you put a sticker of the Confederate flag on your bumper, you're mixing yourself up with people who use it for those other reasons.
However, this design incorporating the Confederate design is clearly a piece of Dukes merchandise:
A fan instantly knows that this is referring to the General Lee. It is separate from the actual Confederate flag because of the fandom customization (the 01), and thus someone glancing at this wouldn't take it to mean the same thing the full Confederate flag would mean.
That's not to say that someone who is a fan shouldn't own a Confederate flag, but honestly if you want to publicly say "I'm a fan of this!", you need to display a symbol unique to your fandom.
The other day I was driving through town, and a truck drove past me with a large confederate flag flying from his truck bed (pole held down by a tire). The very last thing on my mind was "Hey, I bet he's a Dukes of Hazzard fan!". If he was a fan and was trying to display his fandom, he didn't go about it the best way (especially considering where I live).
This is the flag of The US at that time. Notice it is not the same as the flag we currently have.
So when I say "For me this is a symbol for X" and you say "It´s a symbol for Y" - whose opinion is "more reasonable"?I don't think one requires an authority to have a reasonable opinion.
So did pirates, vikings, and half a dozen other groups we have no problem with.I don't think they are racist, but what a Nazi uniform means isn't a completely subjective thing. They actually killed people, and racism was a core part of the ideology.
Your imperialist ancestors are smiling right now.I don't think there's anything wrong with 'cultural imperialism' if the culture is justified. It's only a problem if it's unjustified.
putting away this flags of hate will not change history
So why are you bearing false witness against me? I gave an exact quote and even included the punctuation. It is not required to post the entire speech, not an entire book, nor an entire article. In fact, that's illegal. What I quoted was exactly what was said. The point was his inclusion of slandering the "prophet" of Islam, which is Sharia law not American law.You forget to mention the rest of the quote's context.
Bearing false witness is a sin, you know?
Also makes you wonder just how many people really are Dukes of Hazzard fans and not just racists.The other day I was driving through town, and a truck drove past me with a large confederate flag flying from his truck bed (pole held down by a tire). The very last thing on my mind was "Hey, I bet he's a Dukes of Hazzard fan!". If he was a fan and was trying to display his fandom, he didn't go about it the best way (especially considering where I live).
The flag of the United States of America symbolizes a country that committed the genocide of Native Americans, but nobody is saying that it is wrong to fly the U.S. flag.
How am I being PC?
The symbol means racism to me. Every time I think of people I know who display this flag, I can't find one who isn't racist.
I think of the people I know who "don't see why people would be offended over the Confederate flag", and they're also racist.
They're not Neo-Nazi's or KKK members, but they are racist. They view anyone who is not white as sub-human and feral. They might be nice to someone for a short face-to-face meeting, but it's their attitudes when they think they're not being heard betray them. Most of them don't even realize it, which is the sad part to me.
This symbol has had meaning brought to it.
Being on the winning side hath its privileges.
More Natives fought for the South than did the North.I've seen that Confederate rag being flown around where I live here in the South, and it's usually flying, right next to the american rag, on some tobacco spitting cowboy wannabe redneck's pick up truck, with their windows down, blaring that country music, on their way home from church on Sunday afternoons.
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