The Complexity of Conversion

[keryakos]

Amen to the above.


As for the Romans road, it has led more people to hell than all the brothels in America. There is no such thing as a formula to be saved, and if one follows the formula, repeats a superstitious papist romanist popish prayer, he/she is saved. That is a lie invented by synergists in the last 100 yrs. It is nowhere to be found in Scripture or in the first 1900 yrs of church history.

Paul wrote Romans to the church at Rome. He did not write it to unsaved people. Romans is a doctrinal book, and Romans 10 describes what saved people do.

Hey i didnt thank you yesterday for the article you suggested i appreciate that

 

[RobertZ]

Edited.

 

[Breckmin]

I have asked some very genuine/legitimate questions and I am looking for answeres instead of you and others constantly just shoving my concerns aside and blaming it on my OCD

Robert,
I would be honored to answer some of your questions if you would
message me. I am not a Calvinists (however, I spend much of my
time defending a belief structure that looks equal to it).

I will not blame your OCD (because it is a red herring and irrelevant)
but I will probably want to discuss the subject of spiritual warfare
with you...

which is not allowed here at Christian forums.

 

[the particular baptist]

Hey i didnt thank you yesterday for the article you suggested i appreciate that

NP, i personally found that booklet of great spiritual benefit.

 

[the particular baptist]

I love this quote. First saw it in the quote thread @ the Reformed Room posted by my brother Cam;



"The man who is trying to be a Christian is trying to hold on to something. The man who is a Christian feels that he is being held by something. It has been put to him, it is there; it may even seem to be in spite of him, but it is there. It is ...not what he is doing that matters to him; it is what has been done to him, it is what he has become, it is the awareness of this power within him."

- Martyn Lloyd-Jones *The Doctor*

*emphasis mine

 

[the particular baptist]

You never answered my question, are you telling me that you have to repent before you can be saved? I dont believe that God tells us to first clean up our lives and then come to him.

Forget about how you feel about things. What does the Bible say. Specifically, what does our Lord say about being His disciple.

There is no such thing as a spiritual christian and a carnal christian. That is an invention of synergists to keep their churches full and their salaries fat, and people that dont know any better. No matter that they are building churches on the bones of unconverted lost people. They will tell you you can walk an isle and be sincere and repeat a superstitious idolatrous prayer and be saved and walk out just as lost as you went in.





What does the Lord Jesus Christ say about who can and who cannot be one of His.



Luke 14:33 So therefore, any one of you who does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple.

**in other words, you can no longer live for yourself. Your will must be His will, your passions must be His passions, ect. You can no longer live for yourself. Every man serves one of two masters. He either serves his flesh and own desires, pursuits, passions, or He serves Christ and what is pleasing to Him.

If you are not willing to renounce yourself you cannot be a Christian.




Luke 14:27 Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple.

**A cross is an instrument of death. In other words, if you are not willing to die to yourself, and live for Christ, you cannot be a Christian.





Luke 14:26 If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.

** If Christ is not more desirous to you than a girlfriend, wife, children, parents, sports, hobbies, food.....whatever it may be, fill in the blank....if Christ is not more desirous than any other person or thing in this universe, you cannot be a Christian.

 

[RobertZ]

Forget about how you feel about things. What does the Bible say. Specifically, what does our Lord say about being His disciple.

There is no such thing as a spiritual christian and a carnal christian. That is an invention of synergists to keep their churches full and their salaries fat, and people that dont know any better. No matter that they are building churches on the bones of unconverted lost people. They will tell you you can walk an isle and be sincere and repeat a superstitious idolatrous prayer and be saved and walk out just as lost as you went in.





What does the Lord Jesus Christ say about who can and who cannot be one of His.



Luke 14:33 So therefore, any one of you who does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple.

**in other words, you can no longer live for yourself. Your will must be His will, your passions must be His passions, ect. You can no longer live for yourself. Every man serves one of two masters. He either serves his flesh and own desires, pursuits, passions, or He serves Christ and what is pleasing to Him.

If you are not willing to renounce yourself you cannot be a Christian.




Luke 14:27 Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple.

**A cross is an instrument of death. In other words, if you are not willing to die to yourself, and live for Christ, you cannot be a Christian.





Luke 14:26 If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.

** If Christ is not more desirous to you than a girlfriend, wife, children, parents, sports, hobbies, food.....whatever it may be, fill in the blank....if Christ is not more desirous than any other person or thing in this universe, you cannot be a Christian.

Thank you for those scriptures but I must ask, is being a disciple for Christ and a Christian the same thing or two different things entirely? I ask because I have heard that those scriptures are not reffering necessarily to the process of salvation.

I mean not all Christians are necessarily called to preach etc.....

 

[the particular baptist]

Thank you for those scriptures but I must ask, is being a disciple for Christ and a Christian the same thing or two different things entirely? I ask because I have heard that those scriptures are not reffering necessarily to the process of salvation.

I mean not all Christians are necessarily called to preach etc.....

It is in reference to following Christ not christian service.

I know that people say it is referencing christian service but they have to say that because they teach the doctrine of the carnal christian.

 

[mlqurgw]

RobertZ, I have been reading all your continuous objections in the threads you have been posting since you first came here. You are looking for an experience by which to judge your salvation. Salvation isn't an experience it is a simple trust in Christ. The Spirit speaks by the Word not by emotion and feelings. If that is what you are looking for then perhaps you should ask in the Charismatic room. I get the impression that you are looking for a pity party rather than real honest answers. You have been given Biblical answers by many here and you seem to reject them all in order to garner pity. Compassion and love often dictates stern responses when all else fails. You either trust Christ alone or you don't. No experience can be a true test of faith.

 

[mlqurgw]

Biblical conversion consists of the Spirit of God giving life and faith to a dead sinner by the preaching of the Gospel. It is typified in the valley of dry bones in Ezekiel, the raising of Lazarus by the command of Christ and clearly seen wherever the conversion of sinners are spoken of by the preaching of the Apostles. Christ tells us how it comes about in John 16:8-11.

 

[Breckmin]

The Spirit speaks by the Word not by emotion and feelings.

I agree with you, brother.... but remember that emotions and feelings
are often the PRODUCT of salvation (not the means to it, of course) and
if someone is not experiencing the "joy" of their salvation, then there is
something that needs to be addressed in that believer's life. Especially
when they are struggling with their own salvation because of it.

If that is what you are looking for then perhaps you should ask in the Charismatic room. I get the impression that you are looking for a pity party rather than real honest answers.

The problem that I have with this statement is that it appears to be the
result of either impatience with RobertZ or in not understanding his
circumstances and what he is struggling with. It is precisely I think this
last sentence and <<looking for a pity party>> which I felt was a little
too strong and why I responded to you...when your response was clearly
directed at RobertZ.

For the record, I haven't read this thread..only the last few posts... so
I don't want to be guilty of not understanding your circumstances either.
I just wanted to point out to you that as a brother in Christ, I felt this
was a little too strong in judging his motives.

You have been given Biblical answers by many here and you seem to reject them all in order to garner pity.

Perhaps he is still thinking about them and questioning "where he personally
stands" with regards to them....rather than rejecting them as a whole.

Compassion and love often dictates stern responses when all else fails. You either trust Christ alone or you don't. No experience can be a true test of faith.

But doesn't the Lord use ALL experiences to test our faith?? Isn't
perseverance also an experience which demonstrates that our faith was
geniune?

Clearly, those whom have saving faith will persevere... so isn't "over-
coming" passing the test or a demonstration of faith?

I agree with you that love is often demonstrated with straight talk...
but I also believe we need to be careful not to judge "motives" -
especially when we have not walked in another believers shoes....

God Bless You.

In Him,
Michael

 

[mlqurgw]

I agree with you, brother.... but remember that emotions and feelings
are often the PRODUCT of salvation (not the means to it, of course) and
if someone is not experiencing the "joy" of their salvation, then there is
something that needs to be addressed in that believer's life. Especially
when they are struggling with their own salvation because of it.



The problem that I have with this statement is that it appears to be the
result of either impatience with RobertZ or in not understanding his
circumstances and what he is struggling with. It is precisely I think this
last sentence and <<looking for a pity party>> which I felt was a little
too strong and why I responded to you...when your response was clearly
directed at RobertZ.

For the record, I haven't read this thread..only the last few posts... so
I don't want to be guilty of not understanding your circumstances either.
I just wanted to point out to you that as a brother in Christ, I felt this
was a little too strong in judging his motives.




Perhaps he is still thinking about them and questioning "where he personally
stands" with regards to them....rather than rejecting them as a whole.



But doesn't the Lord use ALL experiences to test our faith?? Isn't
perseverance also an experience which demonstrates that our faith was
geniune?

Clearly, those whom have saving faith will persevere... so isn't "over-
coming" passing the test or a demonstration of faith?

I agree with you that love is often demonstrated with straight talk...
but I also believe we need to be careful not to judge "motives" -
especially when we have not walked in another believers shoes....

God Bless You.

In Him,
Michael

After six months of the same thing while ignoring what many have patiently and clearly shown from the Scriptures in an effort to help, experience tells me that the point of strong words has come. If my "judgement" is wrong then it is wrong but I suspect by experience it isn't. I am more than wiling to help anyone with patience and comfort of the Scriptures but a point comes when it is obvious that some are simply not interested in help.

 

[Breckmin]

Brokenness
Repentance
Surrender
Confession
Acceptance

There is nothing complicated about it. And when you get to any one of these phases you will certainly know you are there.

All of these are products of "faith." But I am not certain I could ever
make the statement that "there is nothing complicated about faith."

The reason I say this, is not just Peter's denial, or all of our failures
when we sin, but because God builds up our faith and teaches us
throughout a lifelong process.

Not everyone one has the "same degree of faith." Some have more
faith than others based on what God has taught them. Knowledge
and hearing the Word of Christ is a big part of faith (Rom. 10:17)
and works often justify faith (but faith justifies the sinful condition -
so salvation is by faith and not by works). So like James talks about
when he discusses how works make perfect your faith...different
works demonstrate different levels of faith.

For the believer who takes the "hard road" - or the school of hard
knocks like myself.... I believe that we can often "complicate" the
work of faith that God is doing in our lives with our own disobedience
and lack of faith as a result of struggle.

I believe that conversion is a complicated issue to some degree,
because it involves "our choice" as well as God's election.

You can't have a RELATIONSHIP with God without choice.

You can't agree with God if you can't disagree. You can't love
if you can't agree. You can't say "yes" if you can't say "no."

Salvation is often a lifelong process of God teaching us to say yes to Him.

I do not mean this statement in a technical sense - but rather a practical
application.

 

[Breckmin]

If my "judgement" is wrong then it is wrong but I suspect by experience it isn't.

Is there a difference between a request for pity and a request for help
out of desperation - but still questioning and struggling with what you
are saying?

Have you never - in all of your years of being a Christian - ever doubted
your own soteriological status as it relates to how God sees you?

Perhaps you haven't....but be careful not to misjudge those of us who
have indeed doubted that we were born-again - and the testing that
God allowed us to go through.

M

 

[RobertZ]

After six months of the same thing while ignoring what many have patiently and clearly shown from the Scriptures in an effort to help, experience tells me that the point of strong words has come. If my "judgement" is wrong then it is wrong but I suspect by experience it isn't. I am more than wiling to help anyone with patience and comfort of the Scriptures but a point comes when it is obvious that some are simply not interested in help.

Let me tell you something, YOU DONT KNOW ME! YOU DONT KNOW WHAT I AM GOING THROUGH. You have no clue. How dare you judge me or make an assumption that I am looking for a pity part, that could not be further from the truth!

If I have gotten on your nerves that bad then I am sure there is an ignore option in which you can put me on.

 

[mlqurgw]

Is there a difference between a request for pity and a request for help
out of desperation - but still questioning and struggling with what you
are saying?

Have you never - in all of your years of being a Christian - ever doubted
your own soteriological status as it relates to how God sees you?

Perhaps you haven't....but be careful not to misjudge those of us who
have indeed doubted that we were born-again - and the testing that
God allowed us to go through.

M

Whenever I look at myself I always doubt my salvation. That is what looking at yourself always does because we are sinners. I learned by diligent study of the Scriptures and much prayer to not look to myself but to Christ. My assurance used to come from my feelings and emotions and I was always in a state of panic. Now I simply look to Christ who is faithful even when I am not. I know I am saved not because I feel something, which often I don't, but because Christ has promised and I believe Him. Our friend has been told these things many times but continues to ask the same question over and over again ignoring everything that so many have told him. He has made it clear that he doesn't believe he is saved because he doesn't feel something he wants to feel. Salvation isn't a feeling it is faith. I have met many like him in my years. They are only interested in folks being sorry for them instead of wanting and believing the truth. This ain't my first rodeo and I have been around the block a few times. I seem to be very good at reading people and my instincts are usually right. Our friend has throne up every red flag that I have ever seen that tells me my "judgement" is right.

 

[mlqurgw]

Let me tell you something, YOU DONT KNOW ME! YOU DONT KNOW WHAT I AM GOING THROUGH. You have no clue. How dare you judge me or make an assumption that I am looking for a pity part, that could not be further from the truth!

If I have gotten on your nerves that bad then I am sure there is an ignore option in which you can put me on.

I don't know you personally but I have known many like you. And I do have a clue. I expected you to respond this way because I hit pretty close to home. If I had been far off then you would have probably ignored it and me. Those yell loudest when the fire comes close.

 

[RobertZ]

I don't know you personally but I have known many like you. And I do have a clue. I expected you to respond this way because I hit pretty close to home. If I had been far off then you would have probably ignored it and me. Those yell loudest when the fire comes close.

Are you related to the pharisees? I will tell you once more.......you dont know me, you assume that because you have ran into other people before that were indeed looking for a pity party that I must also be like those, like I said, you dont have a clue about me, who I am or what I am going through. If you dont have anything helpful or useful to say to me then I suggest you say nothing more at all.

 

[RobertZ]

I seem to be very good at reading people and my instincts are usually right. Our friend has throne up every red flag that I have ever seen that tells me my "judgement" is right.

So in other words you are quick to judge and you think you are right even when you are wrong.

There are problems that I am going through which are much deeper than I could ever expect you to understand, a pity party is not something I am the least bit interested in regardless of what your so called judgement of me is telling you.

 

[mlqurgw]

Are you related to the pharisees? I will tell you once more.......you dont know me, you assume that because you have ran into other people before that were indeed looking for a pity party that I must also be like those, like I said, you dont have a clue about me, who I am or what I am going through. If you dont have anything helpful or useful to say to me then I suggest you say nothing more at all.

I tried to give you something helpful and useful before and you did with it as you have done with all those other folks who tried to be helpful and useful to you. I know more than you think I do about what it is to be under the wrath of God. I just didn't wallow in it. BTW; at this point I believe that the most helpful thing I can do for you is to challenge you to put aside your self pity.