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<blockquote data-quote="Theo Barnsley" data-source="post: 73712093" data-attributes="member: 416026"><p>Jesus was talking about future events, not a single future event. And he gave a time frame of when these fuure events would be fulfilled. The future events were in the generation of the disciples he was talking to. You cannot interpret the words any other way, no matter how much you want to spin this or try to reinterpret it.</p><p></p><p>The direct quote is "<em>Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until <strong>all </strong>these things take place.“ </em></p><p><em></em></p><p>Jesus is making it very clear that <strong>ALL</strong> things will take place, not just one or two things but ALL things.</p><p></p><p>So what are the things that Jesus said will take place:</p><p>1. the gospel must first be preached to all nations (definately did NOY happen before the destruction of jerusalem, or in the generation of the disciples).</p><p>2. the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds.</p><p>3. the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.</p><p>4. The sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.</p><p>5.He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other</p><p></p><p>If it is in the past, when did all of the above happen? Was the gospel preached to all nations within the generation of the disciples Jesus was talking to?</p><p>Did the son of man come with his angels, & repay every man according to his deeds within the generation of the disciples?</p><p>Was the sun darkened, the moon not give its light, & the stars fall from the sky? (maybe temporarily during a solar eclipse, however the stars certainly havent fallen from the sky).</p><p>Has the sign of the son of man appeared in the sky, & all the tribes on earth mourned, & did everybody seen the son of man coming on the clouds of the sky with great power & glory?</p><p>Has he sent forth his Angels with a great trumpet, & gathered his elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other?</p><p></p><p>All of this was suposed to happen "in the generation of the disciples" not at some time in OUR future.</p><p></p><p>I have left out many of the other things that were supposed to occur, such as war & rumour of war, famines & pestilence, brother against brother, earthquakes etc, because these are all useless as any prophecy, as these types of events have always happened throughout history, & will continue to happen. However it is interesting that whenever christians talk about the end times, & how they know that they are near, they always talk about war & rumour of war, famines & pestilence, brother against brother, earthquakes etc, as evidence that the end times are upon us (as though these things have never happened in the past) so the majority of Christians certainly understand that Jesus was talking about the end times. I dont know how many times a Jehovas witness has told me the end times are upon us because of those prophecies!</p><p></p><p></p><p>The defence is ALWAYS used that Jesus said that: "Of that day and hour no one knows" I wish I had a dollar for every time I have heard that one used!</p><p></p><p>However not knowing the day & hour dosnt mean you cant know the timeframe. As an example, I know that the Prime Minister of Australia is obliged to announce a general election before June this year. So I definately know that an Australian general election will be announced by the P.M. before June this year, & that is the 'time frame'. However what I definately DON'T know is the 'day & the hour' that the prime minister will announce the general election. So quoting "Of that day and hour no one knows" is NOT a get out of jail card for Jesus establishing the time frame, which was in the "generation of the apostles". He told them the time frame, he didnt tell them the day or the hour.</p><p></p><p>Jesus isnt talking about leaving the earth & going into heaven. He is talking about returning to the earth. He said that he would return to the earth the same way he left the earth. He is talking about returning with "great power & glory" & gathering his elect from the four corners of the earth (jesus obviously theought the earth was flat with corners). And as 'the gospel must first be preached to all nations' before this could happen, it clearly can not refer to Jesus leaving the earth & going into heaven after his resurection.</p><p></p><p>You make an interesting point here. However if you are saying that the gospels had to be written after 70 AD or the destruction of Jerusalem could not have been predicted, then you are basically saying that Jesus did not predict this at all, & the Gospel writers put words in Jesus mouth, which is definately a possibility. However if this is the case, it is impossible to know what Jesus actually did or said, & what is made up by the gospel writers. So Jesus might never have claimed he was God, or the Messiah, & he might never have actually claimed he was going to be resurected, & might never have claimed he was going to return. So Jesus might never have actually said he would return in the generation of the disciples either, which means that he wasnt necessarily a false prophet, however also not necessarily god or the messiah, & definately at least partially a fictitious character. So this hardly helps your case!</p><p></p><p>(When I say partially a fictitous character, he may have been a real peson, but impossible to tell which parts of his life were real, & which parts made up by the gospel writers).</p><p></p><p>Another possibility is Jesus did say that he would return in the generation of the disciples, but that the gospel writers, writing after 70 AD embellished the story, by adding the destruction of Jerusalem into it, to make Jesus predictions seem more remarkable. It is possible that some disciples were still alive at that point, meaning that they were still expecting him to return "in their generation".</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Theo Barnsley, post: 73712093, member: 416026"] Jesus was talking about future events, not a single future event. And he gave a time frame of when these fuure events would be fulfilled. The future events were in the generation of the disciples he was talking to. You cannot interpret the words any other way, no matter how much you want to spin this or try to reinterpret it. The direct quote is "[I]Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until [B]all [/B]these things take place.“ [/I] Jesus is making it very clear that [B]ALL[/B] things will take place, not just one or two things but ALL things. So what are the things that Jesus said will take place: 1. the gospel must first be preached to all nations (definately did NOY happen before the destruction of jerusalem, or in the generation of the disciples). 2. the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds. 3. the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 4. The sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 5.He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other If it is in the past, when did all of the above happen? Was the gospel preached to all nations within the generation of the disciples Jesus was talking to? Did the son of man come with his angels, & repay every man according to his deeds within the generation of the disciples? Was the sun darkened, the moon not give its light, & the stars fall from the sky? (maybe temporarily during a solar eclipse, however the stars certainly havent fallen from the sky). Has the sign of the son of man appeared in the sky, & all the tribes on earth mourned, & did everybody seen the son of man coming on the clouds of the sky with great power & glory? Has he sent forth his Angels with a great trumpet, & gathered his elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other? All of this was suposed to happen "in the generation of the disciples" not at some time in OUR future. I have left out many of the other things that were supposed to occur, such as war & rumour of war, famines & pestilence, brother against brother, earthquakes etc, because these are all useless as any prophecy, as these types of events have always happened throughout history, & will continue to happen. However it is interesting that whenever christians talk about the end times, & how they know that they are near, they always talk about war & rumour of war, famines & pestilence, brother against brother, earthquakes etc, as evidence that the end times are upon us (as though these things have never happened in the past) so the majority of Christians certainly understand that Jesus was talking about the end times. I dont know how many times a Jehovas witness has told me the end times are upon us because of those prophecies! The defence is ALWAYS used that Jesus said that: "Of that day and hour no one knows" I wish I had a dollar for every time I have heard that one used! However not knowing the day & hour dosnt mean you cant know the timeframe. As an example, I know that the Prime Minister of Australia is obliged to announce a general election before June this year. So I definately know that an Australian general election will be announced by the P.M. before June this year, & that is the 'time frame'. However what I definately DON'T know is the 'day & the hour' that the prime minister will announce the general election. So quoting "Of that day and hour no one knows" is NOT a get out of jail card for Jesus establishing the time frame, which was in the "generation of the apostles". He told them the time frame, he didnt tell them the day or the hour. Jesus isnt talking about leaving the earth & going into heaven. He is talking about returning to the earth. He said that he would return to the earth the same way he left the earth. He is talking about returning with "great power & glory" & gathering his elect from the four corners of the earth (jesus obviously theought the earth was flat with corners). And as 'the gospel must first be preached to all nations' before this could happen, it clearly can not refer to Jesus leaving the earth & going into heaven after his resurection. You make an interesting point here. However if you are saying that the gospels had to be written after 70 AD or the destruction of Jerusalem could not have been predicted, then you are basically saying that Jesus did not predict this at all, & the Gospel writers put words in Jesus mouth, which is definately a possibility. However if this is the case, it is impossible to know what Jesus actually did or said, & what is made up by the gospel writers. So Jesus might never have claimed he was God, or the Messiah, & he might never have actually claimed he was going to be resurected, & might never have claimed he was going to return. So Jesus might never have actually said he would return in the generation of the disciples either, which means that he wasnt necessarily a false prophet, however also not necessarily god or the messiah, & definately at least partially a fictitious character. So this hardly helps your case! (When I say partially a fictitous character, he may have been a real peson, but impossible to tell which parts of his life were real, & which parts made up by the gospel writers). Another possibility is Jesus did say that he would return in the generation of the disciples, but that the gospel writers, writing after 70 AD embellished the story, by adding the destruction of Jerusalem into it, to make Jesus predictions seem more remarkable. It is possible that some disciples were still alive at that point, meaning that they were still expecting him to return "in their generation". [/QUOTE]
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