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The coming of Christ

Discussion in 'Exploring Christianity' started by Itsyoursmyfamily, Feb 17, 2019.

  1. Itsyoursmyfamily

    Itsyoursmyfamily New Member

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    When Christ returns to you. Will you recognize him?
    What do you expect to happen?
     
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  2. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    1st Thessalonians 4

    The Return of the Lord

    13Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

    15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

    18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

    Contrary to some popular teachings .... it's going to be an unbelievable loud, noisy and glorious event.
     
  3. Of the Kingdom

    Of the Kingdom New Member

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    Hi, and welcome to the forum. I see you've found your way to other sub-forums, so you can target your question to people most likely to answer it.

    I wondered exactly what you meant. When Jesus answers prayer? When he directs me through the Holy Spirit? Second coming?

    My experience so far, in the first two situations, is that sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. Is that likely to be the case at the second coming? Scary thought! I need to think about what we know about the second coming to say; the "every eye shall see Him" suggests that He will not be ignored at that time.

    God bless you. I hope your experience here is useful.
     
  4. Pethesedzao

    Pethesedzao Well-Known Member

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    I shall see Him after I have been raptured
     
  5. mnorian

    mnorian Oldbie--Eternal Optimist Staff Member Administrator Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    this thread has been moved from
    Introduce Yourself
    to
    Exploring Christianity
    for a better fit and responses.
    Carry on.
     
  6. Carlos234

    Carlos234 New Member

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    He will be born somewhere between 2020-2022 in the southern Indian state of Karnataka. I personally think it'll be 2022.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2019
  7. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    When Jesus returns there won't be anyone who doesn't recognize Him, it will be obvious to everyone. Indeed, if there's any doubt at all, then it's not Jesus.

    In the Nicene Creed we confess, "He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and His kingdom will have no end."

    There's basically three major eschatological concepts that come into play here:

    - The resurrection of the dead.
    - The Last Judgment.
    - The renewal of all things.

    St. Paul captures all of this in his first epistle to the Corinthians, in the 15th chapter,

    "But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For 'God has put all things in subjection under his feet.' But when it says, 'all things are put in subjection,' it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all." - 1 Corinthians 15:20-28

    Even as Christ rose from the dead, we also shall rise from the dead, at Christ's return. When Christ comes He delivers all things to God the Father, so that in the end God is all in all. That's resurrection, judgment, and the renewal of all things. The everlasting kingdom the Creed mentions is the fullness of God's reign, when Christ comes, and all things are made new--all creation healed and restored.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
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  8. Uber Genius

    Uber Genius "Super Genius"

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    Yes. Even skeptics will recognize him.
     
  9. Theo Barnsley

    Theo Barnsley Member

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    He already came back nearly 2000 years ago & everybody missed it, or he was a false prophet & he isnt ever coming back!

    “For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds. Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.
    (Matthew 16: 27, 28)

    “Behold, I have told you in advance. So if they say to you, ‘Behold, He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out, or, ‘Behold, He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe them. For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be. Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.

    But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

    Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. (Matthew 24: 25-34)

    “Then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven. Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near. Even so, you too, when you see these things happening, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place… (Mark 13:26-30)

    “Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near. Then He told them a parable: Behold the fig tree and all the trees; as soon as they put forth leaves, you see it and know for yourselves that summer is now near. So you also, when you see these things happening, recognize that the kingdom of God is near. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place. (Luke 21:27-32)

    None of the above has taken place. Jesus did not say that these things would happen far off in the future. He tells his disciples that "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place."
     
  10. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    1) You're new to these forums, but it's worth pointing out that the Exploring Christianity isn't an area on the forum for debate, but where non-Christians can ask questions about Christianity and get answers from practicing Christians. As per the rules sticked at the top of the board,

    "This is a forum where non-Christian Seekers are encouraged to ask questions about those aspects of the Christian faith which seem hard to understand or accept, and where Christian members (see Faith groups list) can enter into discussion with them on these questions. The primary focus of this forum is Christian evangelism and discipleship, not to debate Christian Theology or challenge, attack, or argue against, Christianity. If any non-Christian member would like to challenge Christianity, they may do so in the Christian Apologetics forum. Please read and agree with this thread before posting in the Christian Apologetics forum."

    2) Most Christians understand the passages you've presented as not having to do with Jesus' return, but are in fact things from the past. The Son of Man coming into His kingdom is not a reference to Jesus' return, but is an allusion to the book of Daniel where "one like a Son of Man" is taken up into heaven before the "Ancient of Days" and given power and authority.

    "I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man, and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him. And to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed." - Daniel 7:13-14

    The Son of Man coming into his kingdom is the ascension, not the second coming. Likewise the signs Jesus points to in the Olivet Discourse have nothing to do with His coming, but with the destruction of the Temple--all of those things taking place in 70 AD when the Romans sieged Jerusalem and the Temple was destroyed.

    I'm answering your post here not for debate, but to answer it. If you'd like to debate these topics, one can do it in the Christian Apologetics forum. I'm not opposed to debate, it just needs to be done in the right area of the website.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  11. frankieberg1985

    frankieberg1985 New Member

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    Do you always find new dates since it never happens to begin with?
     
  12. Theo Barnsley

    Theo Barnsley Member

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    I didnt enter into any debate. I copied & pasted passages that are directly from your bible, & let them speak for themselves.
    Of course many Christians have no choice but to make excuses as to why Jesus never returned when he said he would. It is quite clear however from the passages that Jesus is talking about a future event, & nothing to do with the past.

    That is the spin & reinterpretation that you want to put on it, to try to explain it away, however it has no validity because Jesus words are VERY clear.

    Jesus was clearly talking about 'this generation' & 'some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom'. How then can this possibly be about past events when he said it, if some of those who are standing there will see it? You claim to believe in Jesus, but dont want to believe in Jesus own words when it doesn't suit you.

    There is nothing I posted that didnt come direct from the christian bible, & indeed the words supposedly came directly from Jesus own mouth, so it is extremely relevant to the topic of exploring christianity. Unless people are only allowed to explore the christianity that YOU believe in, & you dont want any alternative christian views out there.

    There ARE many Christians who are comfortable with the idea that Jesus might never return. Not all christians have the same world view, which is why there are over a thousand different christian denominations & sects in the world.

    If somebody is seeking the truth, they have the right to know all viewpoinnts, not just be spoonfed what some church doctrine WANTS them to believe.

    Also FYI, I started a debate on a different topic in the DEBATE forum, that WAS an actual debate, & the moderator moved my debate to THIS forum, because it was claimed that this forum was more relevant to the topic.
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2019
  13. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    "I am going to the store tomorrow to get groceries" is, yes, referring to a future thing I'm going to do.
    A hundred years from now it will no longer be a future event, but will have already transpired.

    That's how time works.

    Again, if you want to debate this, go to the appropriate debate forum.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  14. Theo Barnsley

    Theo Barnsley Member

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    And this is supposed to prove what? I am well aware that Jesus was talkig to the Apostles 2000 years ago, which is why:
    He already came back nearly 2000 years ago & everybody missed it, OR he was a false prophet & he isnt ever coming back!
     
  15. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    Then your previous argument is nonsensical.

    "It is quite clear however from the passages that Jesus is talking about a future event"

    Yes, it was future from when Jesus would have said it. But it is now presently in our past. Jesus doesn't begin to address His coming until near the end of the Olivet Discourse, when He says, "Of that day and hour no one knows" and draws parallel to the days of Noah when people were eating and drinking, marrying, having their ordinary lives and--without warning--the flood came. Everything preceding that addresses not the question of when Jesus would come again, but chiefly with events leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem. That's already happened. It's a matter of the historical record that during the First Jewish-Roman War the Romans attacked and destroyed Jerusalem, including its Temple.

    A first century audience would also have readily understood the reference to the Son of Man coming into his kingdom; it's not an accident that when Luke writes of Jesus' ascension that he specifically describes Jesus' ascension being accompanied with clouds.

    While there is some debate as to when the Synoptic Gospels were written, there is a general consensus that they were written sometime between about 60 and 100 AD, some preferring an earlier date (before 70 AD) and some preferring a later date (after 70 AD). To permit an earlier date one has to permit that Jesus also accurately predicted the destruction of Jerusalem. So for the sake of argument let's only allow ourselves a later date, sometime after the destruction of Jerusalem. At which point, if the text is obviously talking about Jesus' return (as you are insisting), then we have to conclude that the Evangelists, writing at a much later date, include (or insert) these words into Jesus' sayings knowing full well that what Jesus said can't be true--i.e. that there would be some standing when the Son of Man comes into His kingdom. Which, while not out of the question, is one should admit rather odd. If one, instead, chooses to argue for an earlier date this is not going to help the case much, as if Jesus quite accurately is able to predict the destruction of the Temple, then the argument that Jesus must be a false prophet seems slightly less tenuous.

    While I do believe that the words attributed to Jesus here are authentic, I tend to accept that the Synoptic Gospels are probably later rather than earlier. Cases can be made for earlier dating, for example the way the Acts of the Apostles ends with St. Paul still alive in Rome seems strange if the work was written years after Paul's death at the hands of Nero; an important point to be made seeing as the author of the Acts is also the author of the Gospel of Luke, as its clear that Luke-Acts has the same author and is a two part work.

    At any rate, since this has become a debate I suspect that the moderators will likely close, edit, or move this thread.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  16. Theo Barnsley

    Theo Barnsley Member

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    Jesus was talking about future events, not a single future event. And he gave a time frame of when these fuure events would be fulfilled. The future events were in the generation of the disciples he was talking to. You cannot interpret the words any other way, no matter how much you want to spin this or try to reinterpret it.

    The direct quote is "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.“

    Jesus is making it very clear that ALL things will take place, not just one or two things but ALL things.

    So what are the things that Jesus said will take place:
    1. the gospel must first be preached to all nations (definately did NOY happen before the destruction of jerusalem, or in the generation of the disciples).
    2. the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds.
    3. the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
    4. The sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.
    5.He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other

    If it is in the past, when did all of the above happen? Was the gospel preached to all nations within the generation of the disciples Jesus was talking to?
    Did the son of man come with his angels, & repay every man according to his deeds within the generation of the disciples?
    Was the sun darkened, the moon not give its light, & the stars fall from the sky? (maybe temporarily during a solar eclipse, however the stars certainly havent fallen from the sky).
    Has the sign of the son of man appeared in the sky, & all the tribes on earth mourned, & did everybody seen the son of man coming on the clouds of the sky with great power & glory?
    Has he sent forth his Angels with a great trumpet, & gathered his elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other?

    All of this was suposed to happen "in the generation of the disciples" not at some time in OUR future.

    I have left out many of the other things that were supposed to occur, such as war & rumour of war, famines & pestilence, brother against brother, earthquakes etc, because these are all useless as any prophecy, as these types of events have always happened throughout history, & will continue to happen. However it is interesting that whenever christians talk about the end times, & how they know that they are near, they always talk about war & rumour of war, famines & pestilence, brother against brother, earthquakes etc, as evidence that the end times are upon us (as though these things have never happened in the past) so the majority of Christians certainly understand that Jesus was talking about the end times. I dont know how many times a Jehovas witness has told me the end times are upon us because of those prophecies!
    The defence is ALWAYS used that Jesus said that: "Of that day and hour no one knows" I wish I had a dollar for every time I have heard that one used!

    However not knowing the day & hour dosnt mean you cant know the timeframe. As an example, I know that the Prime Minister of Australia is obliged to announce a general election before June this year. So I definately know that an Australian general election will be announced by the P.M. before June this year, & that is the 'time frame'. However what I definately DON'T know is the 'day & the hour' that the prime minister will announce the general election. So quoting "Of that day and hour no one knows" is NOT a get out of jail card for Jesus establishing the time frame, which was in the "generation of the apostles". He told them the time frame, he didnt tell them the day or the hour.
    Jesus isnt talking about leaving the earth & going into heaven. He is talking about returning to the earth. He said that he would return to the earth the same way he left the earth. He is talking about returning with "great power & glory" & gathering his elect from the four corners of the earth (jesus obviously theought the earth was flat with corners). And as 'the gospel must first be preached to all nations' before this could happen, it clearly can not refer to Jesus leaving the earth & going into heaven after his resurection.
    You make an interesting point here. However if you are saying that the gospels had to be written after 70 AD or the destruction of Jerusalem could not have been predicted, then you are basically saying that Jesus did not predict this at all, & the Gospel writers put words in Jesus mouth, which is definately a possibility. However if this is the case, it is impossible to know what Jesus actually did or said, & what is made up by the gospel writers. So Jesus might never have claimed he was God, or the Messiah, & he might never have actually claimed he was going to be resurected, & might never have claimed he was going to return. So Jesus might never have actually said he would return in the generation of the disciples either, which means that he wasnt necessarily a false prophet, however also not necessarily god or the messiah, & definately at least partially a fictitious character. So this hardly helps your case!

    (When I say partially a fictitous character, he may have been a real peson, but impossible to tell which parts of his life were real, & which parts made up by the gospel writers).

    Another possibility is Jesus did say that he would return in the generation of the disciples, but that the gospel writers, writing after 70 AD embellished the story, by adding the destruction of Jerusalem into it, to make Jesus predictions seem more remarkable. It is possible that some disciples were still alive at that point, meaning that they were still expecting him to return "in their generation".
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2019
  17. Carlos234

    Carlos234 New Member

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    Unlike the Christian belief that Jesus is gonna come down from the clouds to banish all the sinners to an eternal Hell and make Earth a paradise for Christians alone, what I speak of is very real.
     
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