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The Collective Concept of Messiah.

Shibolet

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The Collective Concept of Messiah

As a result of studying the Messianic concept of Messiah on the basis of Logic, I arrived to the conclusion that the Messiah could not be an individual but the People of Israel. If we read Prophet Habakkuk 3:13, "The Lord goes forth to save His People; to save His Anointed One." That's what Messiah is, the Anointed One of the Lord aka Israel, the Son of God if we read Exodus 4:22,23.

Besides, the individual is born, lives his span of life and dies. Are we supposed to expect a new Messiah in every generation? Obviously not! The Messiah is not supposed to die, but to remain as a People before the Lord forever. (Jeremiah 31:35-37)
 

gadar perets

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The Collective Concept of Messiah

As a result of studying the Messianic concept of Messiah on the basis of Logic, I arrived to the conclusion that the Messiah could not be an individual but the People of Israel. If we read Prophet Habakkuk 3:13, "The Lord goes forth to save His People; to save His Anointed One." That's what Messiah is, the Anointed One of the Lord aka Israel, the Son of God if we read Exodus 4:22,23.

Besides, the individual is born, lives his span of life and dies. Are we supposed to expect a new Messiah in every generation? Obviously not! The Messiah is not supposed to die, but to remain as a People before the Lord forever. (Jeremiah 31:35-37)
The Messiah was indeed supposed to die. Isaiah 53 declares it so and here is what the Jewish Rabbis had to say about it in the Talmud:

"Rab said: The world was created only on David's account. Samuel said: On Moses account; R. Johanan said: For the sake of the Messiah. What is his [the Messiah's] name? - The School of R.Shila said: 'His name is Shiloh, for it is written, "until Shiloh come."' The School of R. Yannai said: 'His name is Yinnon, for it is written, "His name shall endure for ever: e'er the sun was, his name is Yinnon."' The School of R. Haninah maintained: 'His name is Haninah, as it is written, "Where I will not give you Haninah."' Others say: 'His name is Menahem the son of Hezekiah, for it is written, "Because Menahem ['the comforter'], that would relieve my soul, is far."' The Rabbis said: 'His name is "stricken," as it is written, "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of Elohim, and afflicted."'" Tractate Sanhedrin. "98b." Babylonian Talmud. 4 Apr. 2012.​

Notice that the Rabbis quoted Isaiah 53:4. Here we clearly see that the Rabbis believed that the Messiah fulfills the prophecy given by Isaiah. Isaiah went on to write;

He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. Isaiah 53:8-9

Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. Isaiah 53:12
 
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Shibolet

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The Messiah was indeed supposed to die. Isaiah 53 declares it so and here is what the Jewish Rabbis had to say about it in the Talmud.

No, he was not. Messiah ben Jospeh was the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 who was identified by Isaiah as being Israel if you read Isaiah 41:8,9; and 44:1,2,21. The prophecy of the Suffering Servant was known as the Scapegoat sent by the High Priest to Azazel Eastward through the desert, if you read Leviticus 16:6-10. When the time arrived for that prophecy to be fulfilled, Israel, the Ten Tribes was taken Eastward through the desert to Assyria. So, the Messiah was exiled forever, not physically dead. That's just like the Scapegoat every year on the Yom Kippur would not be sacrificed but sent to Azazel. [/QUOTE]
 
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gadar perets

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No, he was not. Messiah ben Jospeh was the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 who was identified by Isaiah as being Israel if you read Isaiah 41:8,9; and 44:1,2,21.

There is no doubt that Israel is YHWH’s servant, but they are not the same servant found in Isaiah 53. That servant is spoken of in Isaiah 42:1-7; 49:1-7; and 50:4-10.


Isa 42:1 Behold my servant (Yeshua), whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
Isa 42:2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.
Isa 42:3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. (Israel brought forth lies and deceit - Jer 9:5,8)
Isa 42:4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.
Isa 42:5 Thus saith God YHWH, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
Isa 42:6 I YHWH have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people (the New Covenant ratified by Yeshua’s shed blood), for a light of the Gentiles (Israel profaned YHWH among the nations – Ezekiel 36:21);
Isa 42:7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. (Fulfilled by Yeshua – Luke 4:18)


Isa 49:1 Listen, O isles, unto me (Yeshua); and hearken, ye people, from far; YHWH hath called me (Yeshua) from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.
Isa 49:2 And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword (Israel's mouth was full of lies and deceit); in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;
Isa 49:3 And said unto me, Thou (Yeshua) art my servant, O Israel (Yeshua is the epitome of a true Israelite. As their king, he represents the entire nation), in whom I will be glorified.
Isa 49:4 Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with YHWH, and my work with my God.
Isa 49:5 And now, saith YHWH that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him (how can the people of Israel be this servant and yet, bring Israel (Jacob) back to YHWH?), Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of YHWH, and my God shall be my strength.
Isa 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel (the people of Israel will not raise up the tribes of Israel and restore themselves. This is a different servant): I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles (See Isaiah 42), that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth (Israel will not save the world. Yeshua already did that).
Isa 49:7 Thus saith YHWH, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him (Yeshua) whom man despiseth, to him (Yeshua) whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of YHWH that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee (Yeshua).


Isa 50:4 Adonai YHWH hath given me the tongue of the learned, that I should know how to speak a word in season to him that is weary (not speak lies like Israel): he wakeneth morning by morning, he wakeneth mine ear to hear as the learned.
Isa 50:5 Adonai YHWH hath opened mine ear, and I was not rebellious, neither turned away back.
Isa 50:6 I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting. (Fulfilled by Yeshua – Mark 14:65)
Isa 50:7 For Adonai YHWH will help me; therefore shall I not be confounded: therefore have I set my face like a flint, and I know that I shall not be ashamed.
Isa 50:8 He is near that justifieth me; who will contend with me? let us stand together: who is mine adversary? let him come near to me.
Isa 50:9 Behold, Adonai YHWH will help me; who is he that shall condemn me? lo, they all shall wax old as a garment; the moth shall eat them up.
Isa 50:10 Who is among you (Israel) that feareth YHWH, that obeyeth the voice of his servant (Yeshua), that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of YHWH, and stay upon his God.​


The prophecy of the Suffering Servant was known as the Scapegoat sent by the High Priest to Azazel Eastward through the desert, if you read Leviticus 16:6-10. When the time arrived for that prophecy to be fulfilled, Israel, the Ten Tribes was taken Eastward through the desert to Assyria. So, the Messiah was exiled forever, not physically dead. That's just like the Scapegoat every year on the Yom Kippur would not be sacrificed but sent to Azazel.

Lev 16:15 Then shall he kill the goat of the sin offering, that is for the people, and bring his blood within the vail, and do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat:

Lev 16:16 And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins: and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation, that remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness.​


This is the Atonement sacrifice that pertains to Isaiah 53:10. The suffering servant not only suffered, but died as a sin offering for the people. The scapegoat is also fulfilled by Yeshua since he is the sin bearer of Isaiah 53:11-12 who carried our sins away.
 
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Shibolet

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There is no doubt that Israel is YHWH’s servant, but they are not the same servant found in Isaiah 53. That servant is spoken of in Isaiah 42:1-7; 49:1-7; and 50:4-10.

Perets, due to the fact that all Christians are only too ready to interpret the Tanach according to Christian preconceived notions, it has become necessary
to demand that they provide us with a nominal reference to Jesus and not only assumptions. After all the Tanach is Jewish and it is only obvious that all interpretations must be Jewish and not Christian.
 
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Shibolet

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Perets, due to the fact that all Christians are only too ready to interpret the Tanach according to Christian preconceived notions, it has become necessary
to demand that they provide us with a nominal reference to Jesus and not only assumptions. After all the Tanach is Jewish and it is only obvious that all interpretations must be Jewish and not Christian.
 
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gadar perets

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Perets, due to the fact that all Christians are only too ready to interpret the Tanach according to Christian preconceived notions, it has become necessary
to demand that they provide us with a nominal reference to Jesus and not only assumptions. After all the Tanach is Jewish and it is only obvious that all interpretations must be Jewish and not Christian.
Let's just concentrate on Isaiah 49:1-7. My reply about this passage did not use the NT or Christian arguments to support my belief. If you believe I have erred in my interpretation of Isaiah, then please place your interpretation next to mine (perhaps in blue font) so I can see our differences (particularly in verses 2 & 6).

Isa 49:1 Listen, O isles, unto me (Yeshua); and hearken, ye people, from far; YHWH hath called me (Yeshua) from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.
Isa 49:2 And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword (Israel's mouth was full of lies and deceit); in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;
Isa 49:3 And said unto me, Thou (Yeshua) art my servant, O Israel (Yeshua is the epitome of a true Israelite. As their king, he represents the entire nation), in whom I will be glorified.
Isa 49:4 Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with YHWH, and my work with my God.
Isa 49:5 And now, saith YHWH that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him (how can the people of Israel be this servant and yet, bring Israel (Jacob) back to YHWH?), Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of YHWH, and my God shall be my strength.
Isa 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel (the people of Israel will not raise up the tribes of Israel and restore themselves. This is a different servant): I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles (See Isaiah 42), that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth (Israel will not save the world. Yeshua already did that).
Isa 49:7 Thus saith YHWH, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him (Yeshua) whom man despiseth, to him (Yeshua) whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of YHWH that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee (Yeshua).​
 
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Shibolet

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Let's just concentrate on Isaiah 49:1-7. My reply about this passage did not use the NT or Christian arguments to support my belief. If you believe I have erred in my interpretation of Isaiah, then please place your interpretation next to mine (perhaps in blue font) so I can see our differences (particularly in verses 2 & 6).

Isa 49:1 Listen, O isles, unto me (Yeshua); and hearken, ye people, from far; YHWH hath called me (Yeshua) from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.
Isa 49:2 And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword (Israel's mouth was full of lies and deceit); in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;
Isa 49:3 And said unto me, Thou (Yeshua) art my servant, O Israel (Yeshua is the epitome of a true Israelite. As their king, he represents the entire nation), in whom I will be glorified.
Isa 49:4 Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with YHWH, and my work with my God.
Isa 49:5 And now, saith YHWH that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him (how can the people of Israel be this servant and yet, bring Israel (Jacob) back to YHWH?), Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of YHWH, and my God shall be my strength.
Isa 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel (the people of Israel will not raise up the tribes of Israel and restore themselves. This is a different servant): I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles (See Isaiah 42), that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth (Israel will not save the world. Yeshua already did that).
Isa 49:7 Thus saith YHWH, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him (Yeshua) whom man despiseth, to him (Yeshua) whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of YHWH that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee (Yeshua).​


Nothing in Isaiah 49 or 42 for that matter about Jesus. I can see that you are not serious at all with this issue. Your replacement of the term "servant" with the name Yeshua has become hilarious. BTW, Isaiah 42:6 is about Israel being chosen as light unto the Gentiles. In fact, Jesus himself in his Sermon of the Mount to a crowd of Jews said loud and clear to the Jews: "You are the light of the world." (Mat. 5:14)​
 
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Shibolet

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Aryeh Jay said: The Tanach is Jewish and has several Jewish Interpretations. However, Christianity has a claim to the same scriptures and they are allowed to interpret them as they see fit. And if Christianity interprets them differently than you, it has no effect on who you are or what you believe whatsoever.

It is called plagiarism with the intent to vandalize the gospel of Jesus aka the Tanach with the gospel of Paul aka the NT. If you agree with that position, you simply agree with the Pauline policy of Replacement Theology. Pity!
 
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gadar perets

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Nothing in Isaiah 49 or 42 for that matter about Jesus. I can see that you are not serious at all with this issue. Your replacement of the term "servant" with the name Yeshua has become hilarious. BTW, Isaiah 42:6 is about Israel being chosen as light unto the Gentiles. In fact, Jesus himself in his Sermon of the Mount to a crowd of Jews said loud and clear to the Jews: "You are the light of the world." (Mat. 5:14)​
I didn't ask for you to tell me what it doesn't say, but what it does say. You are avoiding the issue. Explain your view of Isaiah 49:2. How can Israel be a sharp sword if they were a lying nation full of deceit? Explain Isaiah 49:5. If Israel (Jacob) is the servant, did YHWH form them in the womb so they could bring themselves back to Him? Explain Isaiah 49:6. If Israel is the servant in this verse, then are the tribes raising themselves up?

Yeshua also taught that he was the light of the world (John 8:12). The context of Isaiah 49 shows that the nation of Israel was not a light to the Gentiles, but one man whom YHWH would raise up to bring Israel back to Himself.
 
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Shibolet

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I didn't ask for you to tell me what it doesn't say, but what it does say. You are avoiding the issue. Explain your view of Isaiah 49:2. How can Israel be a sharp sword if they were a lying nation full of deceit? Explain Deuteronomy 49:5. If Israel (Jacob) is the servant, did YHWH form them in the womb so they could bring themselves back to Him? Explain Deuteronomy 49:6. If Israel is the servant in this verse, then are the tribes raising themselves up?

Yeshua also taught that he was the light of the world (John 8:12). The context of Isaiah 49 shows that the nation of Israel was not a light to the Gentiles, but one man whom YHWH would raise up to bring Israel back to Himself.

Isaiah 49:3 - "And the Lord said to me, 'you are My servant' Israel in whom I glory." Israel as light of nations in the theme of Isaiah 42:6. And I think I told you that any Jew, including Yeshua could say he was the light of the world. Nothing special about Yeshua.

Deuteronomy 49 does not exist. I think you are getting tired. Let's take the chance and take a break. Before I leave, you said that Isaiah 49 does not show that Israel was a light to the Gentiles. Verse 3 says, "Israel is My servant" and verse 6, the Lord would make of her a light of nations which is the same. A light of Gentiles. Yes, I think you are tired. We will continue
tomorrow.
 
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Shibolet

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I’m sorry, your faith indicates Judaism but I have never heard a Jew call the Tanach the gospel of Jesus. Perhaps things in Israel have changed since I was last there.

Was Jesus a Jew or a Christian? Jesus was a Jew. So the Tanach was his gospel as it is mine and the gospel of all Jews. The problem with the other Jews is that so much atrocities have happened to the Jews because of Christianity that they rejected even to hear about Jesus. I think it is because they have never read the gospel of Paul aka the NT to see that Jesus never even dreamed the NT would ever rise.
 
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gadar perets

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Isaiah 49:3 - "And the Lord said to me, 'you are My servant' Israel in whom I glory." Israel as light of nations in the theme of Isaiah 42:6. And I think I told you that any Jew, including Yeshua could say he was the light of the world. Nothing special about Yeshua.

Deuteronomy 49 does not exist. I think you are getting tired. Let's take the chance and take a break. Before I leave, you said that Isaiah 49 does not show that Israel was a light to the Gentiles. Verse 3 says, "Israel is My servant" and verse 6, the Lord would make of her a light of nations which is the same. A light of Gentiles. Yes, I think you are tired. We will continue
tomorrow.
Yes, I must have been very tired. Wherever I wrote "Deuteronomy," I meant Isaiah. I have corrected it in my previous post. You still have not answered my request. Explain your view of Isaiah 49:2. How can Israel be a sharp sword if they were a lying nation full of deceit? Explain Isaiah 49:5. If Israel (Jacob) is the servant, did YHWH form them in the womb so they could bring themselves back to Him?

Verse 3 is being spoken to the speaker of verses 1 & 2. In other words, the "me" and "Israel" of verse 3 refer to all the uses of "me" and "my" in verses 1-2. Since a sharp sword does not go out of the mouth of the people of Israel, but instead, lies and deceit come out of Israel's mouth, then the speaker of verse 2 is not the people of Israel, but a different servant. "Israel" is used of that servant in the same way "Ephraim" is used of "Israel". "Ephraim" is synecdoche for "Israel".
 
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Shibolet

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Yes, I must have been very tired. Wherever I wrote "Deuteronomy," I meant Isaiah. You still have not answered my request. Explain your view of Isaiah 49:2. How can Israel be a sharp sword if they were a lying nation full of deceit? Explain Isaiah 49:5. If Israel (Jacob) is the servant, did YHWH form them in the womb so they could bring themselves back to Him?

Verse 3 is being spoken to the speaker of verses 1 & 2. In other words, the "me" and "Israel" of verse 3 refer to all the uses of "me" and "my" in verses 1-2. Since a sharp sword does not go out of the mouth of the people of Israel, but instead, lies and deceit come out of Israel's mouth, then the speaker of verse 2 is not the people of Israel, but a different servant. "Israel" is used of that servant in the same way "Ephraim" is used of "Israel". "Ephraim" is synecdoche for "Israel".

Isaiah 49:1,2 - The Lord appointed me before I was born. That's when HaShem said, "Let there be light and there was light." (Genesis 1:3) Then Israel was born only many years later from the loins of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob to serve as light unto the Gentiles that already existed from the beginning of Creation. (Isaiah 42:6; 49:6; Mat. 5:14; etc.) Then the Lord protected Israel in the shadow of His hand, then polished him as an arrow concealed in His quiver.

Isaiah 49:5 - Now, as the Lord formed me from the womb, resolved to bring back Jacob aka Judah to Himself so that through Jacob aka Judah, Israel may be restored to Him. If the Lord had not restored Jacob aka Judah, Israel would never be able to return to Him. So, IMO, this remains as a prophecy for a still further restoration of Israel. How? By using Judah as a station to return to HaShem.
 
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gadar perets

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Isaiah 49:1,2 - The Lord appointed me before I was born. That's when HaShem said, "Let there be light and there was light." (Genesis 1:3) Then Israel was born only many years later from the loins of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob to serve as light unto the Gentiles that already existed from the beginning of Creation. (Isaiah 42:6; 49:6; Mat. 5:14; etc.) Then the Lord protected Israel in the shadow of His hand, then polished him as an arrow concealed in His quiver
Maybe I should have been more specific. How does Israel fulfill having a sharp sword for a mouth in verse 2? The fact is, they were a lying nation full of deceit. They were not "polished" arrows, but warped and dull. As a result, they were constantly chastened by the Almighty to the point of being removed from the land twice. In your effort to deny Yeshua as the servant in this chapter, you won't even recognize YHWH's Messiah as the servant even if Yeshua is not the servant.

Isaiah 49:5 - Now, as the Lord formed me from the womb, resolved to bring back Jacob aka Judah to Himself so that through Jacob aka Judah, Israel may be restored to Him. If the Lord had not restored Jacob aka Judah, Israel would never be able to return to Him. So, IMO, this remains as a prophecy for a still further restoration of Israel. How? By using Judah as a station to return to HaShem.
Judah is a part of Jacob. Jacob refers to Israel, including Judah. Verse 5 says the servant will bring Jacob/Israel (including Judah) back to Him. If the servant is Israel, then Israel will bring Israel back to Him. The fact is, Messiah (the true/ultimate servant) will bring Israel, including Judah, back to Him.
 
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Shibolet

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Maybe I should have been more specific. How does Israel fulfill having a sharp sword for a mouth in verse 2? The fact is, they were a lying nation full of deceit. They were not "polished" arrows, but warped and dull. As a result, they were constantly chastened by the Almighty to the point of being removed from the land twice. In your effort to deny Yeshua as the servant in this chapter, you won't even recognize YHWH's Messiah as the servant even if Yeshua is not the servant.

Judah is a part of Jacob. Jacob refers to Israel, including Judah. Verse 5 says the servant will bring Jacob/Israel (including Judah) back to Him. If the servant is Israel, then Israel will bring Israel back to Him. The fact is, Messiah (the true/ultimate servant) will bring Israel, including Judah, back to Him.

Every thing you have mentioned above against Israel aka Judah as a lying nation and much more, HaShem has found it to be irrelevant as He has only chastised us as we deserved, but he didn't and will not get rid of us as He has got rid of the other nations. (Jeremiah 46:28) Somehow, you cannot understand the role of Israel aka Judah as the Servant of the Lord according to Isaiah 41:8,9; 44:1,2,21 and the whole 53 chapter. Perhaps, if you compare Isaiah 53 with Psalm 44:10-27 you might still have a chance. In the meantime, you ought to know that the Lord has a bless to those who bless Israel and a curse to those who accurse Israel. (Numbers 24:5,9)
 
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gadar perets

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Every thing you have mentioned above against Israel aka Judah as a lying nation and much more, HaShem has found it to be irrelevant as He has only chastised us as we deserved, but he didn't and will not get rid of us as He has got rid of the other nations. (Jeremiah 46:28)
That is irrelevant. What IS relevant is that neither Israel, nor Judah, can fulfill Isaiah 49:2 or 5 which proves the servant is not the people of Israel or Judah, but the Messiah who represents them and will bring them back to YHWH.

Somehow, you cannot understand the role of Israel aka Judah as the Servant of the Lord according to Isaiah 41:8,9; 44:1,2,21 and the whole 53 chapter.
I understand how Israel is YHWH's servant in Isaiah 41 & 44. What you don't understand is that Israel is NOT YHWH's servant in Isaiah 53 which speaks of one single man who died for the nation Israel.

Perhaps, if you compare Isaiah 53 with Psalm 44:10-27 you might still have a chance. In the meantime, you ought to know that the Lord has a bless to those who bless Israel and a curse to those who accurse Israel. (Numbers 24:5,9)
I have compared the two. Isaiah uses the pronouns he, him, his to speak of a single male. Psalm 44 uses us and our to speak of the nation or people of Israel as a whole.

I do not curse Israel. I simply restate what YHWH has already stated. I have been blessed for upholding Israel as YHWH's people; for teaching how Torah and Messiah Yeshua came through the people of Israel; how blessings come to the entire world through Israel, etc.
 
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Shibolet

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That is irrelevant. What IS relevant is that neither Israel, nor Judah, can fulfill Isaiah 49:2 or 5 which proves the servant is not the people of Israel or Judah, but the Messiah who represents them and will bring them back to YHWH.

I understand how Israel is YHWH's servant in Isaiah 41 & 44. What you don't understand is that Israel is NOT YHWH's servant in Isiah 53 which speaks of one single man who died for the nation Israel.

I have compared the two. Isaiah uses the pronouns he, him, his to speak of a single male. Psalm 44 uses us and our to speak of the nation or people of Israel as a whole.

I do not curse Israel. I simply restate what YHWH has already stated. I have been blessed for upholding Israel as YHWH's people; for teaching how Torah and Messiah Yeshua came through the people of Israel; how blessings come to the entire world through Israel, etc.

You have spoken wonderfully in this last paragraph but it is not enough. If you deny Israel as God's servant in Isaiah 53 because the chapter is speaking about one in the third person, you might as well erase the whole chapter 4:22,23 of Exodus because the point is the same that the Lord is talking in the singular but meaning the People of Israel. "Israel is My Son; let My Son go that HE may serve Me." HaShem is talking about Israel the People, though using terms in the singular. So, your rule of thumb about Isaiah 53 being one person and not the People of Israel has failed because, in Isaiah 53 and Exodus 4, the method is the same.
 
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