The circumcision of Christ is water baptism: by his Spirit and in his name

[He-rat of the Circus-mice]

There is only one baptism (See Ephesians 4:5). If they are baptized with only water, then it's an improper baptism. If it's only by the spirit, again, it's an improper baptism. Baptism includes both water and spirit in order for it to be valid.

So did Cornelius receive an improper baptism when he received the Holy Spirit? Or did he act in obedience and get baptised with water afterward? There is only one baptism that counts (baptism in the Holy Spirit), the same as it is the Circumcision of the Heart which is the true circumcision. However, there is still water-only baptism, the same as there is still flesh-only circumcision. Neither will save anyone, but they do happen.

On the contrary. In baptism, water comes first and then one receives the gift of the Holy Spirit. God sent John the Baptist first to baptize with water. John said that there will be someone after him who will come baptizing with the Holy Spirit. In the same way, look at Jesus' baptism at the Jordan River. Jesus was immersed into the water. After He rose from the water, the heavens opened and the Holy Spirit descended upon Him. After Pentecost, Peter stated, "Repent and be baptize and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Peter is essentially saying that one must be baptized with water in order to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. After the person is immersed in water, the Holy Spirit comes and acts through the baptismal waters.

This wasn't how the disciples received the Holy Spirit and it wasn't the process for Cornelius. I'd argue these exceptions disprove the rule you advocate.

 

[Ttalkkugjil]

Christians have in Christ regeneration and a new life through Baptism.

Paul here compares the sacrament by which they were received into the Church with that by which the Jews of old were made members of God's outward people.

This sacrament is one in which the flesh's body is put off, in which humanity's old nature is laid aside like a garment, never to be donned again.

'Christ's circumcision' the sacrament is called by which the NT believers are joined to Christ's Church.

Christians are in possession of the promises which were given to Abraham to apply to nations.

Through admission's sacrament Christians have become a people consecrated to God.

 

[Selene03]

So did Cornelius receive an improper baptism when he received the Holy Spirit? Or did he act in obedience and get baptised with water afterward? There is only one baptism that counts (baptism in the Holy Spirit), the same as it is the Circumcision of the Heart which is the true circumcision. However, there is still water-only baptism, the same as there is still flesh-only circumcision. Neither will save anyone, but they do happen.

Baptism is when you have both water and spirit. He received the Holy Spirit, and for his baptism to be complete, the Apostle Peter said he and his household should be baptized with water. There is only ONE baptism......a baptism consisting of BOTH water and spirit......exactly like Jesus said....water AND spirit.

This wasn't how the disciples received the Holy Spirit and it wasn't the process for Cornelius. I'd argue these exceptions disprove the rule you advocate.

See my previous post.

 

[Neo_Frisk]

Christians have in Christ regeneration and a new life through Baptism.

Paul here compares the sacrament by which they were received into the Church with that by which the Jews of old were made members of God's outward people.

This sacrament is one in which the flesh's body is put off, in which humanity's old nature is laid aside like a garment, never to be donned again.

'Christ's circumcision' the sacrament is called by which the NT believers are joined to Christ's Church.

Christians are in possession of the promises which were given to Abraham to apply to nations.

Through admission's sacrament Christians have become a people consecrated to God.

So if you hold that through this Baptism, Christians have regeneration and new life, you surely hold that there is more to the Baptism than immersion in water? After all, as He-rat of the Circus-mice posted, some disciples had received baptism, but they had to be baptised again, as they had yet to be baptised into Christ.

Baptism is when you have both water and spirit. He received the Holy Spirit, and for his baptism to be complete, the Apostle Peter said he and his household should be baptized with water. There is only ONE baptism......a baptism consisting of BOTH water and spirit......exactly like Jesus said....water AND spirit.

So how could Jesus say to the thief on the cross "‘Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in paradise’” (Luke 23:39-43).

The thief hadn't been baptised with water since believing in Jesus.

 

[Ttalkkugjil]

So if you hold that through this Baptism, Christians have regeneration and new life, you surely hold that there is more to the Baptism than immersion in water? After all, as He-rat of the Circus-mice posted, some disciples had received baptism, but they had to be baptised again, as they had yet to be baptised into Christ.

What is needed is water mingled with God's Word. The baptism ought be done in the name of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Spirit.

 

[Neo_Frisk]

What is needed is water mingled with God's Word. The baptism ought be done in the name of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Spirit.

So then, how could Jesus say to the thief on the cross "‘Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in paradise’” (Luke 23:39-43)?

The thief hadn't been baptised with water since believing in Jesus.

 

[Ttalkkugjil]

So then, how could Jesus say to the thief on the cross "‘Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in paradise’” (Luke 23:39-43)?

The thief hadn't been baptised with water since believing in Jesus.

Baptism is necessary but it isn't absolutely necessary.

 

[Neo_Frisk]

Baptism is necessary but it isn't absolutely necessary.

Surely a sacrament is either necessary, or it is not? How can it be necessary, but not "absolutely" so?

 

[Ttalkkugjil]

Surely a sacrament is either necessary, or it is not? How can it be necessary, but not "absolutely" so?

Sacraments are necessary because they are God's chosen means of grace. Each is, however, not absolutely necessary because there are other means.

 

[Neo_Frisk]

Sacraments are necessary because they are God's chosen means of grace. Each is, however, not absolutely necessary because there are other means.

This sounds to me that God's chosen means of grace is through faith in Him, and the sacraments are the outward manifestation of our faith demonstrated by obedience to Him.

 

[Selene03]

So how could Jesus say to the thief on the cross "‘Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in paradise’” (Luke 23:39-43).

The thief hadn't been baptised with water since believing in Jesus.

How do you know that this thief wasn't baptized when it never said so in the Bible? What we do know was that he obviously knew that Jesus was innocent.

 

[Neo_Frisk]

How do you know that this thief wasn't baptized when it never said so in the Bible? What we do know was that he obviously knew that Jesus was innocent.

We know at first that both thieves insulted Jesus.

Matthew 27:44
"In the same way the rebels who were crucified with him also heaped insults on him."

We know later on that somehow, one thief repented.
Luke 23:42-43 " Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when You come into Your kingdom!”
And Jesus said to him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.” "

There was no chance of water baptism between this man's repentence, and his death on the cross, yet Jesus still promised him salvation. As God imputed Abraham with righteousness for believing in Him, he continues to impute righteousness to all who believe on His name. Water baptism is simply an outward act of obedience, demonstrating what has already taken place at a spiritual level.

 

[Selene03]

We know at first that both thieves insulted Jesus.

Matthew 27:44
"In the same way the rebels who were crucified with him also heaped insults on him."

We know later on that somehow, one thief repented.
Luke 23:42-43 " Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when You come into Your kingdom!”
And Jesus said to him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.” "

There was no chance of water baptism between this man's repentence, and his death on the cross, yet Jesus still promised him salvation. As God imputed Abraham with righteousness for believing in Him, he continues to impute righteousness to all who believe on His name. Water baptism is simply an outward act of obedience, demonstrating what has already taken place at a spiritual level.

Again, how do you know he wasn’t baptized when the Bible says nothing about it? Jesus said that those who believe AND are baptized will be saved. If both thieves were baptized, and one of them repented and believed Jesus, he was saved. The other remained dead in his unbelief. Jesus said that those who don’t believe will not be saved. So, if a person is baptized, but decided not to believe, Do you think he will be saved?

Again, it cannot be one or the other. It must be both just like water and spirit. If a person believes but is not baptized, will he be saved? Jesus said not everyone who says “Lord, Lord” will be saved. Obviously, those who call Jesus “Lord, Lord” believe, but they are not saved. Why? Because they did not follow God’s will. In other words, if Jesus said, one must be born again of water AND spirit to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.....then it should be both water and Spirit and not spirit alone.

 

[Brotherly Spirit]

Circumcision of the heart is inward unlike the flesh which is outward. Water baptism is the showing of belief in Jesus as the Son of God, confessing as a believer him as Lord and Savior. What this means is you're a repentant sinner who has come believing your sins will be forgiven, that you in Jesus are cleansed before God the Father.

It's not water baptism itself that saves, but coming to believe and confessing yourself as a believer in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. The importance given to baptism is the faith to surrender yourself and your life putting it in his hands. This is done in him through the Church, coming making yourself known as one of his and being welcomed in fellowship.

In the Bible many times Jesus said to those who came to him or had come for others, that their faith has saved them. Couple examples is the man who was brought to Jesus by men who lowered him through the ceiling who was paralyzed and the woman who touched his garment. What's common is they heard of Jesus and came to him, one's faith was shown before he was healed and the other after she was healed. It's a matter of belief in you and letting it be known, but it's coming to Jesus first inwardly and then being lead in his Spirit outwardly.

 

[Neo_Frisk]

Again, how do you know he wasn’t baptized when the Bible says nothing about it?

In general, it is not good practice to argue from the silence of scripture. The example from Acts with John's disciples showed that these disciples had to be baptised again, as they did not believe on Jesus for their baptism. A baptism without Jesus is no more than a wash.

So even if the thief on the cross had been baptised, it was not a believer's baptism. So he did not receive a water baptism since his belief (on the cross), but Jesus indicated that he would be with Him in paradise. His faith in Jesus (not water baptism, but being baptised into Christ) had saved him.

Jesus said that those who believe AND are baptized will be saved. If both thieves were baptized, and one of them repented and believed Jesus, he was saved. The other remained dead in his unbelief. Jesus said that those who don’t believe will not be saved. So, if a person is baptized, but decided not to believe, Do you think he will be saved?

No. I argue that true belief in (and on) Christ is the same as baptism into Christ which is the same as undergoing circumcision of the heart.

Again, it cannot be one or the other. It must be both just like water and spirit. If a person believes but is not baptized, will he be saved? Jesus said not everyone who says “Lord, Lord” will be saved. Obviously, those who call Jesus “Lord, Lord” believe, but they are not saved. Why?

Those who said to Jesus "Lord, Lord" but were unsaved, were not relying on Christ alone for their salvation, but Christ plus works (e.g. Christ plus water baptism) to save them. Prophesying, casting out demons, performing many wonders. All are works, like baptism (or even Old Testament circumcision). These works are the natural results of faith in Christ, not things that contribute or help us toward our salvation, which is solely through faith in Christ.

Matthew 7: 21-23 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Because they did not follow God’s will. In other words, if Jesus said, one must be born again of water AND spirit to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.....then it should be both water and Spirit and not spirit alone.

God tells us what His will is - to believe in the One He sent - Jesus.

John 6:28-29 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Circumcision of the heart is inward unlike the flesh which is outward. Water baptism is the showing of belief in Jesus as the Son of God, confessing as a believer him as Lord and Savior. What this means is you're a repentant sinner who has come believing your sins will be forgiven, that you in Jesus are cleansed before God the Father.

I agree.

It's not water baptism itself that saves, but coming to believe and confessing yourself as a believer in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. The importance given to baptism is the faith to surrender yourself and your life putting it in his hands. This is done in him through the Church, coming making yourself known as one of his and being welcomed in fellowship.

And if nothing else, it is obedience to Him. If we believe Him, we obey Him.

In the Bible many times Jesus said to those who came to him or had come for others, that their faith has saved them. Couple examples is the man who was brought to Jesus by men who lowered him through the ceiling who was paralyzed and the woman who touched his garment. What's common is they heard of Jesus and came to him, one's faith was shown before he was healed and the other after she was healed. It's a matter of belief in you and letting it be known, but it's coming to Jesus first inwardly and then being lead in his Spirit outwardly.

Amen!