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The Church Age

1watchman

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A paper here gives some understanding of what God intended for His church, it appears, showing in brief various interests of men and opposition of Satan to His testimony. It might prove helpful to some Christians, and I will be pleased to chat if one writes me.

- 1 Watchman


THOUGHTS ON THE CHURCH AGE


A brief look at some history by Robert DeWitt, 1/05

[After the ascension of Jesus Christ to heaven, God formed a universal and spiritual body or company of believers on the earth, which is known as "the church" (kuriakos ---pertaining to God); and which is the spiritual body of Christ, which encompasses every "born again" believer. Sometimes people ask: what is the name of the true church, when did it begin, and what does it look like? In the Word of God the church does not have a name, and it was formed on the day of Pentecost about A.D. 33 by the coming of the Holy Spirit to indwell believers, as noted in the book of Acts. It surely does not look like anything we see in the various religions and sects man has established since the apostolic period. That which we are seeing around us today and called "churches", are the organizations and sects men have developed out of the Roman Catholic Religion, with a variety of modifications. The thought here concerns how God's testimony got into such condition. - RLD]

Since there is no name for God's called out assembly (ecclesia), our gathering together and fellowship can have no name except what God gives----saints of God, believers, the ecclesia, Christians gathered to the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ alone (Matt.18:20). To take a name is sectarian and is divisive of the universal company of believers.

The Christian fellowship we own must be that which began with Acts 2:42, and is viewed in the epistles in God's Word. True and faithful saints of God surely ought to seek after that which is of God, rather than traditions and the various ideas of men. From New Testament times, saints have survived many attacks from Satan down through the years, and God has maintained His testimony even in weakness in the face of the enemy's attempts to destroy it.

A study of church history shows a period called "the dark ages" or the middle ages, when the tyranny of the Roman Catholic Religion prevailed (about 500 A.D. to 1500 A.D.). Faithful saints of God could only meet in secret for fear of persecution or death by the organized religion of Rome for about a thousand years. In the 1500's God moved to revive the gospel message of salvation and justification by faith alone, in the grace of God through the Lord Jesus Christ, and a protest movement called a Reformation began. After much trouble, fear, and slaughter of saints, the tyranny of the RC religion was broken.

Denominated sects with hierarchy then developed much like the RC religion, with other religious men seeking to exalt themselves (as the daughters of Rev.2:20-23 & Rev. 17:5). Many faithful saints followed that form in ignorance, for the Word of God was not available to many faithful saints to show them God's way. With the invention of printing the Bible began to circulate widely and more people became literate. Much has been written on this history if one desires to study it further.

In the early 1800's God began another great revival work to recover Church Truth which had been lost since apostolic times. This work, often called "the brethren movement", began in conformity to the New Testament church as found in the Word of God, and it was a lovely thing in its' simplicity and truth and happy fellowship. It spread rapidly, but soon the enemy raised up the flesh of men to bring in imitations and ruin. This simplicity in Christ seemed too simple and plain for many religious people, who held to their denominated systems, or tried to mix the purity of the New Testament order with various innovations. All this history is available in more detail if one wants to study the "brethren" revival of 1827.

In the beginning of the church in the book of Acts and the epistles, the saints met without a name, without a special building, without organization, without a priest or one-man leader in charge, without ceremony or rituals, creeds, programs, entertainment, etc. Acts 2:42 was the essence of this pure expression of God's mind, and the innovations of men was not acceptable. Today, many do not know about the revival of the 1800's and are not studying the Scriptures, and continue with various sects and religious ideas after their various preferences. Indeed, there are new sects being formed every year.

The work of Satan to ruin a collective universal church testimony in the world has diminished the saints, but God has continued His light, and spiritual saints have held the faith. All of us are responsible to find the expression of the "one body in Christ" according to the Word. Some say there is no true and scriptural testimony of the universal church remaining in the world today, and all the sects man has developed is all we have, but that is not true. Some are trying now to add scriptures to their sects and systems to make it more true to the Word. It is not profitable to try to build on a poor foundation. We need unity in truth.

While none should presume to boast of perfection, God has maintained His way as He intended, and it remains for each of us to continue together in the path He yet provides (see John 17:11, 21-23; Acts 2:41-42; Rom.12:4-5; I Cor.1:2-13; I Cor. 12; Eph.2:19-22; Eph.4; Phil.2:2; etc.).

A scriptural gathering of the saints of God today can be found if one is earnest, faithful, and a serious seeker. This writer will help any who honestly desire to sort out truth from all the religious ideas about, study the Word, and be yielded to the leading of the Holy Spirit to find peace and happiness in conformity to God's Word. If one does not have that desire and is satisfied with a religious organization to meet their preferences, we can only commend them to the Lord and go our way. We do not want to debate or strive with any, but be a help to those who wish to get to the heart of the matter.
 
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1watchman

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What I wonder in this regard is why most Christians are not interested in the matter of Christian unity, when God speaks so much about it in His Word. Do most saints just prefer what they are doing without regard to what the Scripture teaches, or are we all supposed to just invent a sect that appeals to us and follow that? I am very much impressed with the thought that we need to keep the "unity of the faith" that God showed us in His Word, though I suppose everyone has their own idea about that.

For me, I am afraid we are going to have to answer for this independent spirit of being "churchy" and challenging or ignoring God. I hope I don't go down that road, but I know I am not perfect.

- 1 Watchman
 
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cubinity

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What I wonder in this regard is why most Christians are not interested in the matter of Christian unity, when God speaks so much about it in His Word. Do most saints just prefer what they are doing without regard to what the Scripture teaches, or are we all supposed to just invent a sect that appeals to us and follow that? I am very much impressed with the thought that we need to keep the "unity of the faith" that God showed us in His Word, though I suppose everyone has their own idea about that.

For me, I am afraid we are going to have to answer for this independent spirit of being "churchy" and challenging or ignoring God. I hope I don't go down that road, but I know I am not perfect.

- 1 Watchman

Christian churches, at least American churches, are legal entities known as corporations. To continue to be seen by their government as corporations and receive tax-exemptions under that status, all representatives and members of that institution must agree to abide by the policies of that corporation.

Because the Bible is in the public domain, the policies of the institution cannot be just "the Bible." The policies must specify the purpose and appropriate behaviors of all representatives and members.

Since each church must formulate their own policies that are distinguishable from that public document known as the Bible, differences between churches will naturally exist. Distinguishing themselves from other churches because of those differences, churches compete, just as any other corporations would in their competitive market.

If they were to join together, as some corporations naturally do, their unique identities would vanish. If all churches united into one church, this corporation would be a monopoly, and monopolies are outlawed in the US. It would be forced to divide or it will lose its recognition as a corporation, and thereby loss its tax-exemption.

So, in order to keep the church legal, to avoid paying taxes, and to avoid becoming a monopoly, unity will have to just remain a catch phrase for brand loyalty within the church market.

Hope that answers your question.
 
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CryptoLutheran

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The big problem with the history you gave is that it's not history. No one who has done their homework would ever believe that.

To name a few major problems:

True and faithful saints of God surely ought to seek after that which is of God, rather than traditions and the various ideas of men.

On the surface a good statement, however it falls apart ultimately because of the overriding assumption that "what I believe is of God, what you all believe is traditions and ideas of men". It's a very pious sounding statement that carries absolutely no weight. It's pious-sounding hot air to give a semblance of authenticity to one's own theological positions. Consider:

A Roman Catholic, "God's Holy Catholic Church teaches only that which is of God, not what has been taught added by the ideas of men, preserved infallibly by the Holy Spirit."

The Reformed, "We believe that Scripture alone teaches us what is necessary, the Reformed Confessions convey pure Biblical truth which is from God and not man made tradition."

The Non-Denominationalist, "We believe only what the Bible says, it is of God and not of men."

The list can go on and nothing has been said except, "Hey, I think my church is biblical and true."

But this all is rather minor compared to the actual historical fumbles,

A study of church history shows a period called "the dark ages" or the middle ages, when the tyranny of the Roman Catholic Religion prevailed (about 500 A.D. to 1500 A.D.).

This demonstrates ignorance on a couple things.

1) The dark ages, technically, is the period in Western Europe after the collapse of the Western Roman Empire due to barbarian invasions and the light of Roman civilization being extinguished. It's dark because there was no more Roman Empire in Western Europe (no more "civilization"), as such "the dark ages" only fits in the context of Western Europe. The Eastern Roman Empire (the Byzantine Empire) continued to exist until 1453 when the Ottomans finally over ran Constantinople. Civilization did return to Western Europe, the pieces beginning to be picked back up with Charlemagne being crowned Holy Roman Emperor and the emergence of the Western European powers such as France, Spain and England by the end of the first millennium.

2) What's this "tyranny of the Roman Catholic Religion"? It makes no sense. From 500 AD onward? What happened in 500 AD? What about the Eastern Orthodox? Both East and West existed in communion until 1054 when the Great Schism occurred, even then the final break didn't happen until the Council of Florence in the 15th century. None of this statement makes sense historically, it's first rate generalized anti-Catholic rhetoric that contains no historical merit whatsoever. It's fiction for the sake of creating a fictitious narrative of "True Believers" suffering under a big bad enemy through a period of history. It doesn't look to the complexities, nuances, and realities of actual historical investigation and doesn't care to (facts would just get in the way of the revisionist agenda going on here).

In the early 1800's God began another great revival work to recover Church Truth which had been lost since apostolic times.

Bingo, and here's the agenda which the opening statements about "being of God" come into play. This is the climax of the narrative.

The narrative begins with the set up, we ought to be "of God" not "of men"; it then proceeds to raise up the antagonist "the Roman Catholic Religion" an agent of "Satan" killing all the "True Believers". By this the narrative establishes all existent Christianity as lost and apostate, a pawn of the prince of devils. To tear it all down, so that the victorious moment can occur when the "True Believers" the protagonists in this story are vindicated by God through a "great revival work" in the early 1800s.

So, what do we have?

"All your churches are wrong, they are deceived by Satan and follow the traditions of men, my church is right, it is of God established by God reviving the True Faith(TM) that has been lost for so long."

And that's it, that's all the narrative says. It says nothing more and nothing less. But it's entirely fiction, ignoring all facts of history and regarding agenda more important than truth.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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1watchman

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Crypto, this is a huge misrepresentation of the original thread with a lot of interjections alleging things that were not expressed. Truth should not be assumed as bragging or exalting self. That is not even logical. I did not speak of being better than anyone else, but presented a paper I believe is sound.

The paper does speak against the tyranny of the RC religion for a thousand years, but that is a matter of history and can be studied in colleges on the Middle Ages. You seem bent on defending those things and promoting that religion, but that is not addressing the truth of the original thread about church truth.

- 1 Watchman
 
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CryptoLutheran

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Crypto, this is a huge misrepresentation of the original thread with a lot of interjections alleging things that were not expressed. Truth should not be assumed as bragging or exalting self. That is not even logical. I did not speak of being better than anyone else, but presented a paper I believe is sound.

The paper does speak against the tyranny of the RC religion for a thousand years, but that is a matter of history and can be studied in colleges on the Middle Ages. You seem bent on defending those things and promoting that religion, but that is not addressing the truth of the original thread about church truth.

- 1 Watchman

Actually that's just my point, you won't read in any academic setting the things written in the paper you presented. I would recommend reading some decent books on Church History, there are a number out there. The one I found helpful many years ago because of how easy it is to read is Church History in Plain Language by Dr. Bruce Shelley. Shelley was a graduate and teacher at Denver Theological Seminary, an Evangelical seminary founded by the Conservative Baptist Association. I add the last bit so there's no thinking that it's somehow biased in favor of Catholicism. It's not. And while I wouldn't argue it being a be-all end-all of the topic, it is a great beginner's resource.

Again, let me encourage you to do some solid historical research, instead of paying attention to crackpot theories by people who clearly have never cracked open a book on the subject.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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1watchman

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I have read many histories on the subject. You mention one, Crypto, but there are many and many different views --mostly supporting their sect as the Baptist one you reference. I have found Miller's Church History to be helpful; also, Foxe's Book Of Martyrs; others, and a college course on Middle Ages. These are not "crackpot" thoughts, as you prefer to say.

My conclusion is like the author above said in the paper, that unity of the faith is essential and God will hold true "born again" believers to account for that rather than sectarianism. True believers should not fight against unity to defend their interests, but of course religionists will. We must not be biased against Holy Scripture.

I hope that Bible searchers will benefit from the ministry shared in this paper.

- 1watchman
 
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BigNorsk

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Foxe's Book of Martyrs is so one sided and contains so many errors it would be considered historical but not history.

It would be like reading a transcript of one side in a court case and concluding you knew what you needed to know.

Drawing conclusions from it would be a mistake and would be the difference between a grand jury that only hears the prosecution and a trial which presents both sides.

As for unity, this seems to be more a glass half full thing. People all over, are banding together and cooperating. The vast majority do not spend their time focusing on separating or differences. You seem to be taking the side of the nondenominationals who say denominations are the source of disunity rather than a source of unity and cooperation. They respond by being even more separated than could be said of any denomination.

I take denominations as evidence of the desire to unite with others.
 
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1watchman

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There are many views offered here. The important point, I believe, is that unity of the faith is possible and God expects it, yet it cannot be on everybody's terms with their opinions. God's standard must be followed from His Word, not tradition, religious ideas, and personal interpretations. Real Christians will be held responsible for perverting the truth, and all other professing Christians will be condemned to a lost eternity for rejecting God's salvation.

Religion is a tool of Satan to deceive souls and he traps many there, so a sincere seeker needs to take "all the counsel of God" as the Apostle Paul stated and bow to it in devotion to the Lord Jesus Christ.

- 1 Watchman
 
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godisreal36

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if we truly seek Jesus, it matters little what we believe because Jesus will not let us fall. He has promised that. If a man thinks something is wrong then it is wrong for that man, even if it's not wrong in gods eyes. I don't know allot of things also, i agree with you. Sometimes i get prideful, and then i fall, but god picks me back up every time.The law doesn't save us, only exposes our sin, only Jesus saves. What all of this means exactly I'm not sure, but Jesus saves that i do know. I like an open mind, not closed to the truth whatever it may be. That's not to say that anything goes, just that sometimes it's hard to interpret gods word. The word of god is our food, without it we die, but mastering it is impossibly for us. Forgive my running of the mouth, i try to learn, you sound like someone who i could learn from. I just wanted to speak to you, if it makes no sense, forgive me. i love to talk allot, sometimes not a good thing. I'm a fool with a big mouth, i struggle to tame this tung but to no end. Maybe even its pride speaking, maybe i want to be right. I have been guilty of that many times. Maybe this is just a confession, or both. I love Jesus, maybe this big mouth will become useful for more good than evil. Even now i talk to much, i think i am right but only god knows, i wish i had control over this tongue of mine, but it still runs me. Maybe my pride is talking again, maybe i want to sound like i know what I'm talking about and do not. Don't agree with me if you do, it'll only enlarge my over sized ego. I struggle to improve, that's all i am sure of. Feel free to correct me though, i need that sometimes. Maybe, even admitting i talk too much is pride in it's self. I fear my foolishness, perhaps this is a confession. Whatever it is Jesus is my favorite topic and i love talking about Gods word.:thumbsup:
 
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