The Charismatic Movement

[Adammi]

What are your personal opinions on this movement within the Catholic Church?
And, are the statements that were made by Pope Paul VI (I think that he was the one) regarding the movement ex cathedra?

~Adam

 

[Paul S]

I think if it helps bring people closer to Jesus, it's good, but it seems to me that there's sometimes too much emphasis on the externals, such as speaking in tongues. My personal preference for worship is much more contemplative than the usual Charismatic Mass, so it's not my style, but I think it's okay as long as the proper respect is shown to Jesus in the Eucharist. Maybe it's because it seems too Protestant for me - we don't need all the preaching and hymns which make up a typical Protestant service, since we have Jesus Himself present in the Eucharist. There's nothing wrong with preaching and hymns, but those aren't the best way to worship God.

 

[Rising_Suns]

As long as reverence is preserved.

 

[Markh]

I am quite sure it has Vatican backing but it isn't for me.

 

[kayanne]

IMaybe it's because it seems too Protestant for me - we don't need all the preaching and hymns which make up a typical Protestant service,

Catholics don't have preaching or hymns? (pardon my ignorance!) What does occur (other than the eucharist)?
respectfully, kayanne

 

[Paul S]

Catholics don't have preaching or hymns? (pardon my ignorance!) What does occur (other than the eucharist)?
respectfully, kayanne

We do, but they're not the focus. Maybe I'm thinking more of Baptists, but the sermon seems to be much more important at a Protestant service than at a Catholic Mass. At a weekday Mass, the homily is optional.

As for hymns, it's usually the Protestants who really sing out at church (and we Catholics could really learn from this). At Mass, the choir sings, but at many parishes, the rest of just sort of follow along in the hymnal. At the traditional Mass, the congregation doesn't sing at all. The hymns are basically very beautiful background music to what's occurring at the altar.

I don't mean to suggest these things are bad, or that Catholics don't have them, but that they're given much less importance at Mass than at a typical Protestant service. I admit I've only been to a very few Protestant services, but many Protestants view prayer and hymns as worship, one of the reasons they're so disturbed by prayers and hymns to Mary and the saints. Since Protestants don't have the same understanding of Communion as Catholics, it's understandable why prayers and hymns and preaching about the Bible take on a greater importance.

I guess my point was that the outgoing, external Charismatic worship is more like a Protestant service than the quiet, internal Catholic Mass I'm used to, and I'm not all that comfortable with Protestant ideas coming into the Church, although I recognise that they're not necessarily bad just because they aren't Catholic.

The focus of the Mass needs to be Jesus in the Eucharist and the Sacrifice which is taking place, and I think too much external participation can possibly take away from that and turn the focus more towards us and less towards God.

 

[Rising_Suns]

The focus of the Mass needs to be Jesus in the Eucharist and the Sacrifice which is taking place, and I think too much external participation can possibly take away from that and turn the focus more towards us and less towards God.

That's exactly right.

Regarding the "Charasmatic movement", I'm not quite sure I consider it a movement. Such a term almost sounds like it's revolutionary or out of control. Instead, I think it's just the Church trying to reach out to our teens more. I have been Life Teen Masses, and although I am a little concerned about the risk of losing reverence to the Eucharist, I can also see it's profound potential at reaching the younger generation; with the worship rock bands and such. I've also been to Revive at the Eucharistic Congress, which was truly wonderful.

It seems the Church is getting better at meeting people at their stage in life, and Life Teen may be effectively doing that for teens along with other such programs.

May the Lord give you His peace!

-Davide

 

[Highway of Life]

Pope John Paul II is a very outspoken Charismatic. He has been trying to encourage the Charismatics to step into the forefront of ministry in the Catholic church, however, Charismatics in the Catholic church have had a lot of persecution.

Blessings in Christ,
Highway of Life

 

[kayanne]

but many Protestants view prayer and hymns as worship, one of the reasons they're so disturbed by prayers and hymns to Mary and the saints.

Thank you for your explanation. Yes, I do view prayer, hymns, and really the way that I live my life all as components of worship to God. From what you've said, I take it that catholics have a narrower, more precise concept of worship. Would it be getting too off topic to ask you to elaborate on what does constitute worship in your opinion?
respectfully, kayanne

 

[Paul S]

Thank you for your explanation. Yes, I do view prayer, hymns, and really the way that I live my life all as components of worship to God. From what you've said, I take it that catholics have a narrower, more precise concept of worship. Would it be getting too off topic to ask you to elaborate on what does constitute worship in your opinion?
respectfully, kayanne

Prayers and hymns can be worship, when we direct them to God. I pray the Divine Office, which basically is prayers and hymns, mostly psalms, and some other scripture readings, and it's definitely worship, since it's all directed to God. The Office, along with the Mass and the sacraments, make up the Church's official worship. I've prayed it a couple times with some Protestants, and they had no problems with it other than asking for the intercession of the saints.

These things aren't necessarily worship, though. When we sing the national anthem at a baseball game, we're not worshipping the flag, but honouring our country. It's the same thing with Mary and the saints - we honour them with hymns, and we pray to them to intercede with God for us, not to worship these other created men.

While our prayers to God are worship, they're far below the Mass. Even the most eloquent prayer ever said by the pope wouldn't even come close. The highest worship we can give God is sacrifice, and under the New Covenant, there's only one sacrifice acceptable to God, that of His Son on the Cross. This is what the Mass is, a re-presentation of this one Sacrifice, continuing through the ages. Note that it's NOT a re-sacrificing of Jesus. When we're kneeling before the altar at Mass, we're at the foot of the cross on Good Friday, with the true and real Body and Blood of Jesus there befoer us. When the priest holds up the Host and Chalice, he's holding God Himself in his hands.

When one realises what the Mass truly is, it's much easier to understand how this act is far above any prayer man could ever compose, and why irreverence at Mass, especially during the consecration, is such a big problem. If some of the things that go on at some Masses were done in an audience with a president or a king, the ruler would be furious at the lack of respect. How much more important is God than any human ruler?

 

[PolskiKrol]

I heard somewhere the pope speaks in tounges sometimes at mass. Is that true?

 

[Benedicta00]

Thank you for your explanation. Yes, I do view prayer, hymns, and really the way that I live my life all as components of worship to God. From what you've said, I take it that catholics have a narrower, more precise concept of worship. Would it be getting too off topic to ask you to elaborate on what does constitute worship in your opinion?
respectfully, kayanne

It’s the heavenly worship come down to us. We literally worship with all of heaven. We are outside of time and space and mystically we are joined with those in heaven and all the angles as we offer Jesus sacrifice up for us and the world. This is what it is to truly be “one” in Christ. He joins us through being baptized into Him and from there we have the power of his resurrection to offer with him his sacrifice up to God along with those who have gone before us. We worship the lamb who was slain but now lives forever.

Mass is an amazing thing. We are alone with God there even though we offer together as one. We commune with him and he with us and it is a bit of heaven on earth for us. We are made holy through this offering and reception. Jesus binds his whole self to us and sanctifies us with himself. Please read John 6 and Revelation and the Last Supper discourse.

 

[Rising_Suns]

It’s the heavenly worship come down to us. We literally worship with all of heaven. We are outside of time and space and mystically we are joined with those in heaven and all the angles as we offer Jesus sacrifice up for us and the world. This is what it is to truly be “one” in Christ. He joins us through being baptized into Him and from there we have the power of his resurrection to offer with him his sacrifice up to God along with those who have gone before us. We worship the lamb who was slain but now lives forever.

Mass is an amazing thing. We are alone with God there even though we offer together as one. We commune with him and he with us and it is a bit of heaven on earth for us. We are made holy through this offering and reception. Jesus binds his whole self to us and sanctifies us with himself. Please read John 6 and Revelation and the Last Supper discourse.

Yes. That is why we do not rely on hyms or songs to worship God (although we do sing hyms at Mass), since all of Mass is an entire divine expression of worship.

Our worship is more in the form of reverence. Instead of expressive singing, we are more interior; looking within, to the stillness in our hearts. Catholic worhsip is very reverent in that it focusses on an inner peace and humility; it's a quite different form of worship than what Protestants are used to.

May the Lord give you His peace!

-Davide

 

[FullyMT]

The only main problem I have with the Charismatic "Movement" is that it can cause people to rely on their emotions and "gifts" to know where they are in their relationship with God and preaches too much "feel good" and not enough (not saying they don't) about the fact that there will be suffering when we choose Christ.
I have friends who, if they can't make it to a "LifeTeen" Mass, they won't even go because they find a different Mass "boring", and that is something that deeply disturbs me, but I think is due more the a misunderstanding on the person's part on what truly happens at during Mass rather than the just the "feel-good" feeling during the Mass with more "contemporary" music (especially when before Mass we ask for some silence before the Opening Procession to remind ourselves about the Eucharist and that we are truly receiving our Lord).

 

[Paul S]

(especially when before Mass we ask for some silence before the Opening Procession to remind ourselves about the Eucharist and that we are truly receiving our Lord).

I always thought this was the time for everyone to talk to the people they haven't seen in a week.

I agree with you that this should be a time of prayer, and that any socialising should be done outside the church. It's very distracting when you're trying to pray and the people in the next pew are chatting loudly with each other.

 

[Highway of Life]

I heard somewhere the pope speaks in tounges sometimes at mass. Is that true?

Yes that is true, the Pope does 'pray' in tounges at Mass.

Highway

 

[Highway of Life]

Charismatic Gifted, filled with the divine, with divinely given powers, or with God's spirit. This state may be linked with ecstasy, which is reported to have been experienced by the early prophets and by Saul, the first king.

The Holy spirit is given to us to help us to grow the way God wants. Along with this baptism, the Holy Spirit gives us gifts to be used in doing the work of God. While baptism by water is symbolic of the cleansing, it is the baptism by the Holy Spirit that truly cleanses us from the inside out. This process creates a new creature with a mind that loves God.

Who would want God's spirit in their lives?
Who would want the gifts of God's spirit?
Who would want to be truly cleased inside and out?

This is what defines 'Charismatic'

Highway of Life

 

[Lifesaver]

People do this "speaking in tongues" (the Bible really doesn't seem to be speaking about this when it says speaking in tongues) in the Charismatic Renewal, but they also do it in Protestant groups (and they are led farther away from the Church as a result of that), and in candomble, an African religion popular in some parts of Brazil, very similar things happen during the rituals. Why should we assume that what takes place with Catholics is any different than what happens in Protestant and Pagan groups?

Plus, in a recent interview, the leader of Catholic Charismatism in Brazil (they are building a mega-temple for some 100,000 people now) said that, with the Charismatic movement, the Church "will be born". Obviously, many Charismatics believe they are more Christian than ordinary Roman Catholics, and that the Church somehow depends on their movement for Her existence.

And then there are the accounts of people who left the movement, and speak of retreats where people in big dimly-lit rooms would go into extasis, dance convulsively, sit on each other's laps, pass away, all in front of the Holy Eucharist.

 

[PeterPaul]

Yes that is true, the Pope does 'pray' in tounges at Mass.

Highway

Its called speaking in foreign languages. I can see how for those who only speak English it can appear as supernatural.

 

[Rising_Suns]

Charismatic Gifted, filled with the divine, with divinely given powers, or with God's spirit. This state may be linked with ecstasy, which is reported to have been experienced by the early prophets and by Saul, the first king.

The Holy spirit is given to us to help us to grow the way God wants. Along with this baptism, the Holy Spirit gives us gifts to be used in doing the work of God. While baptism by water is symbolic of the cleansing, it is the baptism by the Holy Spirit that truly cleanses us from the inside out. This process creates a new creature with a mind that loves God.

Who would want God's spirit in their lives?
Who would want the gifts of God's spirit?
Who would want to be truly cleased inside and out?

This is what defines 'Charismatic'

Highway of Life

I think that is sort of an arbitrary definition, and it is also exclusionary; it suggests that those who are not charasmatic cannot experience such closeness to God. Clearly one who is not "Charasmatic" can be gifted or filled with the Holy Spirit as well.