The Charismatic Movement and the Catholic Church

[VivaCristoRey]

How's it feel? Just because you don't like something doesn't mean you have to come out with hate toward. If it ain't your bag fine then don't worry about it.

I stated nothing about my subjective preferences, only the objective reality.

 

[LinuxUser]

I already stated that I don't have to engage in a particular sin in order to know that it is sinful. It is objectively sinful to make a mockery out of the Mass, the Extraordinary Gifts of the Holy Ghost and to distort the Catholic Faith. I don't need to participate in this blasphemy to know that I should not participate in this blasphemy.

It is blasphemy to ascribe to God something unfitting. It is unfitting that God would cause people to babble nonsense because that is contrary to right reason. Therefore, to babble and to claim that it is the work of God is an objective moral evil. Now, it may not be subjectively sinful in every case, but it is at least objectively evil to engage in or defend this practice.



Maybe people should not "depend on his work to investigate these websites". I don't read this particular website but you stated that he attacks traditionalists, which a quick search of the website showed to be not an unfounded statement -- see "How Traditionalists and Modernists are Alike", which is a vitriolic attack on those who defend the Catholic Faith.

And have you not disrespected the numerous holy priests who have spoken out against the Charismatic Movement, including my own, by saying that it is forbidden to criticize it? The "Pentecostal" or "Charismatic" movement is contrary to the Catholic Faith. The Church doesn't need Protestantism, it needs a return to the traditional, orthodox Catholic Faith.

You are willfully ignorant and has been shown haven't the foggiest idea what your talking about. Your no better than a Protestant who parrots what they heard you make a disgrace to meaningful dialogue

 

[LinuxUser]

I stated nothing about my subjective preferences, only the objective reality.

Wrong, you haven't had no experience so your subjective all your views are objective from what you heard. Until you can get smart and look at something with real subjectivity (which you can not do now at all) than iggy land you go

 

[VivaCristoRey]

You are willfully ignorant and has been shown haven't the foggiest idea what your talking about. Your no better than a Protestant who parrots what they heard you make a disgrace to meaningful dialogue

So you don't engage in glossolalia ("speaking in tongues") or believe it to be an act of God? You don't believe that an emotional experience ("baptism of the Spirit") is an approbation from God? You don't participate in inappropriate music at Mass or during Eucharistic Adoration? You don't pursue Extraordinary Gifts of the Holy Ghost? You don't have an anti-clerical mindset? You don't engage in false ecumenism with Protestant Charismatics/Pentecostals?

If all these things are true, then good, but certainly that is my understanding of what goes on in the "Catholic Charismatic Renewal".

 

[LinuxUser]

So you don't engage in glossolalia ("speaking in tongues") or believe it to be an act of God?

I don't but it is Biblical and the First Pope and Bishops did it:

4 And everyone present was filled with the Holy Spirit and began speaking in other languages, as the Holy Spirit gave them this ability.

Acts 2:24

44 Even as Peter was saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell upon all who were listening to the message. 45 The Jewish believers who came with Peter were amazed that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles, too. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.

Acts 10:44-46

You don't believe that an emotional experience ("baptism of the Spirit") is an approbation from God?

I can see from this question that your assuming a lot as with all your other question. See the big problem is that your parroting what you heard without any experience the things you say are not valid but mere opinions. It is also evident that your not familiar with the Scriptures.

The baptism in the Spirit may or may not be an emotional experience depending on the individual.

You don't participate in inappropriate music at Mass or during Eucharistic Adoration?

That is a subjective question. A traditionalist would consider most of the NO inappropriate

You don't pursue Extraordinary Gifts of the Holy Ghost?

Yep as St. Paul tells us to

[QUOTE]Are we all apostles? Are we all prophets? Are we all teachers? Do we all have the power to do miracles? Do we all have the gift of healing? Do we all have the ability to speak in unknown languages? Do we all have the ability to interpret unknown languages? Of course not! So you should earnestly desire the most helpful gifts.[/QUOTE]

1 Cor 12:29-31

You don't have an anti-clerical mindset?

Of course not are you daft.

You don't engage in false ecumenism with Protestant Charismatics/Pentecostals?

Spoken like a traditionalist. Don't even know what that is

If all these things are true, then good, but certainly that is my understanding of what goes on in the "Catholic Charismatic Renewal".

The problem is your understanding without any knowledge. It's no different then a Protestant who speaks out against the Church because they understand that is what goes on in the Catholic Church. If your not going to even brother investigating both sides for yourself than but out until you have better knowledge.

Before I got involved in traditionalism I thought all kinds of stupid stuff about it like you do about CCR. It wasn't until I studied it that I understood that not all traditionalist were loons like the sedevacantist or broken away like the SSPX. The studying I did lead me to the traditionalist movement in the Church.

The problem is we let others inform us without finding out ourselves. I have you on ignore and this will be my last post to you unless you decide to learn for yourself what CCR is, not from someone or soneones who had bad experiences or are only parroting information.

 

[St_Barnabus]

Maybe people should not "depend on his work to investigate these websites". I don't read this particular website but you stated that he attacks traditionalists, which a quick search of the website showed to be not an unfounded statement -- see "How Traditionalists and Modernists are Alike", which is a vitriolic attack on those who defend the Catholic Faith.

Sorry, that was Davidnic who mentioned that there are a number of traditionalist websites rated danger or caution. I merely affirmed his comment and added further info regarding websites that mask themselves as "Catholic."

There are several extremely heretical websites that poison the faith of innocent lurkers with falsities that make one shudder at their audacity to print them. TraditionInAction is one that comes to mind, for they never cease to depict our popes, Mother Teresa, et al, in a most despicable light. One forum bans links to their site, justifiably.

Therefore, if you deem Dr. Mirus's analysis of these types of traditionalists as "vitriolic," then I can assume your views are also equally as heretical. He made an excellent observation, BTW, that certainly fits this topic.

This elevation of experience over reflection and authority is a spiritual death-trap, for our own experiences (and our perceptions of these experiences) are notoriously deficient guides to the formulation of principles. It is as if both traditionalists and modernists are stuck in eternal adolescence, where every opinion and argument, however extensively rationalized, is so obviously driven by what they themselves want to be the case.

Perhaps because of the lack of reflection that lies at the core of these extremes, both modernists and traditionalists consistently misuse evidence. They are marvelously able to adduce long lists of facts and authorities in favor of their positions, such that even the elect, if it were possible, might be deceived (Mt 24:24). But when you dig more deeply, you find that the vast majority of their evidence doesn’t apply.

We all struggle constantly with how our likes and dislikes impact our judgment. The problem lies not in the struggle but in the fatal assumption that we know best. It is to those who always know best that Jesus himself said: "For judgment I came into this world, that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind." Hearing this, those who claimed to know asked him, "Are we also blind?" And Jesus replied: "If you were blind, you would have no guilt; but now you say, ‘We see’, and your sin remains."

Seems like a good point to end this discussion on.

 

[JoabAnias]

I realized something tonight while at work listening to the radio.

In 1967 when those kids were praying for a renewal of the gifts of confirmation on their campus in PA,

there was a couple fighting for the right to be inter-racially married because "God" had supposedly outlawed such an aberration.

Consider the parallels and how they are related to religion. They are quite striking.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Those within the traditional movement, of course, need the Church. They need to leave the traditional movement and return to the orthodox Faith.

LinuxUser,

there are many traditional Catholics who are in communion with the Church, for example those who go to FSSP Masses, or Institute of Christ the King, or diocesan Latin Masses. (I am one of these )

 

[LinuxUser]

Me too, I was trying to make a point to the dude not to assume things like he did

 

[St_Barnabus]

Believe it or not, the dude is a dudette.

 

[Gwendolyn]

I realized something tonight while at work listening to the radio.

In 1967 when those kids were praying for a renewal of the gifts of confirmation on their campus in PA,

there was a couple fighting for the right to be inter-racially married because "God" had supposedly outlawed such an aberration.

Consider the parallels and how they are related to religion. They are quite striking.

I don't understand what you are getting at. How does inter-racial marriage relate to religion? It isn't sinful for me (a white girl) to marry an asian man...

 

[JoabAnias]

I don't understand what you are getting at. How does inter-racial marriage relate to religion? It isn't sinful for me (a white girl) to marry an asian man...

It used to be, and not only considered a sin but it was actually made illegal in the USA based on it being contrary to God law. Not specifically related to the Catholic religion, but others.

All forms of unjust discrimination are similar. The CCR is persecuted by those who should be faithful to the intentions of the Magisterium.

 

[ebia]

Um yes, definitely. But I'm also unclear about what exactly you are comparing with what.

Ah. I see.

 

[VivaCristoRey]

LinuxUser,

there are many traditional Catholics who are in communion with the Church, for example those who go to FSSP Masses, or Institute of Christ the King, or diocesan Latin Masses. (I am one of these )

Since you are FSSP, check out Fr. Chad Ripperger's sermon on Pentecost, which touches on the issue of the Charismatic Movement and the idea of Vatican II as a "second Pentecost", which he says is "blasphemy".

Fr. Ripperger knows his stuff. He was professor of moral and dogmatic theology at the FSSP seminary in Nebraska and now is pastor of a parish in Idaho. He is a solid Thomist and backs up pretty much everything I have said here.

Sermons - Sermons #1 - Pentecost (he says no direct links).

 

[Virgil the Roman]

Those within the traditional movement, of course, need the Church. They need to leave the traditional movement and return to the orthodox Faith.

To be traditional, is to be an orthodox Roman Catholic; Traditional Roman Catholics are nothing but orthodox. They preserve and keep the faith. It is funny that someone defending the Pentecostal heresy (a sect outside of the Church of Christ), would try to "throw out" faithful Catholics, whose only goal in life is to believe as Catholics have believe for the last two millennia and most especially for the last one-thousand, nine hundred and sixty-two years. Your view would be almost humourous, if it were not so lamentably false and incorrect to its core.

 

[Gwendolyn]

It used to be, and not only considered a sin but it was actually made illegal in the USA based on it being contrary to God law. Not specifically related to the Catholic religion, but others.

All forms of unjust discrimination are similar. The CCR is persecuted by those who should be faithful to the intentions of the Magisterium.

Ohhhh, okay. I understand.

I wonder why it was considered sinful, though. =/

 

[VivaCristoRey]

I am not saying that there are no corrupt organizations that fall under the "traditionalist" label or abuses that go on. One could cite the examples of Bp. Shuckhardt (from whom the CMRI was originally associated with) or the Society of St. John (a "reconciled" breakaway from the SSPX that was accused of being filled with abusive homosexual priests). The "Tradition In Action" website mentioned is a breakaway from "Tradition, Family, Property" and inherits their errors.

But corrupt organizations or those who follow strange leaders (such as the TFP's Plinio Correa de Oliveira) who depart from Catholic teaching are not the mainstream.

Here's the difference -- traditional Catholicism is orthodox Catholicism. There may be unorthodox or abusive organizations or individuals that claim the title "Traditionalist" but that has nothing to do with the actual doctrine or liturgical practice or religious devotion -- which is traditional, orthodox Catholicism.

On the contrary, the "Catholic" Charismatic Renewal's problem has everything to do with the actual doctrine, liturgical practice and religious devotion. I have no criticized any particular organization or individual within this "movement" but only the "movement" itself and the common practices such as "speaking in tongues", being "slain in the spirit", the "laying on of hands", emotionalism, anti-clericalism and false ecumenism with Protestant Charismatics/Pentecostals. That's the real issue here.

 

[JoabAnias]

Ohhhh, okay. I understand.

I wonder why it was considered sinful, though. =/

Simply because God made the races separate.

It takes a little study of the history of the period. There were a lot of weird protestant ideas about God in the early 1900-50-60's and before. They thought God intended black people to be sub human too and of course you know Catholics were the scum of the earth right from the very beginnings of the country right? If it weren't for immigrants we wouldn't even be here.

As near as I can tell, it all stems from the Puritanism and Colonialism of the founding bigots. They pretty much made up laws accordingly with no real ecclesiastical guidance which wasn't also a self interpretation of Catholic Scripture, just like is still done today - I.e., SOLAS. This whole country is founded on pluralistic heresies, religious indifferentism and warring revolt. Is it any wonder protest, revolt and war are our cultural specialty? Think about how Catholic those dispositions of strife are, in and of themselves. Simply put, they aren't. Catholics are called to obedience to God through the institution He set up to guide. Protestants and agnostics may be called to God as well, but have no oar in the water so to speak. Thats how folks like Thomas Jefferson could frame his documents based on the duplicitous interpretations of the the Bible, Magna Carte and Quran. Check out the federalist papers some time. Someone mentioned Jefferson's Bible the other day. He actually took the Bible and edited it to his liking by removing anything he didn't like. That meant the whole OT and about half of the new.

Cohabitation/fornication is still illegal and on the books of most states yet obviously not enforced. A look at how certain laws just fall by the wayside over time without ever being changed or reversed is quite interesting and telling. The vast majority of them stem from small minded bigotry based on protestant beliefs of the time. That mindset is more prevalent still to this day than most people care to admit. Even here in OBOB by self proclaimed Catholics who know no better. Thats why they love the tabloids so much. They are an unwitting extension of that protestant culture of old giving a whole new meaning to CINO. I see this in the false patriotism of nationalistic pride all the time.

 

[Colin]

Since you are FSSP, check out Fr. Chad Ripperger's sermon on Pentecost, which touches on the issue of the Charismatic Movement and the idea of Vatican II as a "second Pentecost", which he says is "blasphemy".

Fr. Ripperger knows his stuff.

So did Popes John 23rd , Paul 6th , John Paul 2nd , as does Benedict 16th .

They are worth checking out , all speaking favourably of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal .

 

[St_Barnabus]

Since you are FSSP, check out Fr. Chad Ripperger's sermon on Pentecost...
Fr. Ripperger knows his stuff. He was professor of moral and dogmatic theology at the FSSP seminary in Nebraska and now is pastor of a parish in Idaho...

I'm very disturbed that you are recommending this priest's sermon to Monica, whom, as you well know, has had difficulty with some personal struggles. What makes this priest so bona fide that you so willingly expose the rest of this forum's members to his "stuff?" Knowing it came from you, and suspecting that you were dismissed for promoting teachings contrary to our faith, this is no diffferent. You've recommended him several times in the past.

As I listened, the first thing that caught my attention was the false assertion that the Holy Spirit infused the charism of infallibility on ALL of the apostles, and confirmed them in grace so that they couldn't commit a sin, not even venial. The only apostle who was given the office of infallibility was Peter, not the other eleven, and there is no Church teaching that guarantees that anyone is incapable of committing a sin. St. Teresa of Avila taught this, as well, with the capability of sinning being present even in the advanced state of the 7th mansion.

In addition, this priest had negative, disrespectful and false things to say about the hierarchy and Vatican II. You would expose the faithful here to that nonsense? T., I know you believe your truth with all of your being, but in many areas you are in error, and what is worse, will not accept correction from anyone. We'll see where this leads us with respect to your past history here. Several of your posts are already replete with the same errors.