The character of God

[KingZzub]

The whole Word of Faith argument rests on a fundamental dispute about the nature of God, and whether he is good or not.

Well, actually people don't normally say "God is not good", so technically the debate is over meta-ethical issues.

 

[KleinerApfel]

Well, actually people don't normally say "God is not good"

How true!

And that was the bind for me for a long time - how do you deal with an underlying fear and distrust of God when you daren't even ask yourself the question?

I would never have said God was not good, but to keep the lid battened down on my squirming bucketful of questions, I had to re-define the meaning of the word "good."

Somewhere deep down I feared that His goodness was somewhat detached, cold and alien, rather than the warmth and generosity of His loving-kindness I craved and that He has since opened my heart to.

As I read through many, many threads over a long period of time, I began to have courage to articulate my question among people of widely differing views but all of whom always, always treated my queries with love, respect and patience.
Now I can say with confidence, I know God is good!

Sounds a simple enough statement to some, but for me, this has been a paradigm shift in the deepest part of my being.

God bless, love Sue

 

[KingZzub]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to The Lord is my banner again.

Shame. For that was such a wonderful, eloquent post.

 

[foadle]

Yes that happens. I've been there.
Five years ago I moved to Mount Isa. I had been in churches all my life but while I knew that God loved people I did not believe that he could possibly love me. I considered myself totally unlovable.
Up to that point my philosphy on the matter was: If I cannot be loved by imperfect people how much less by a perfect God. I did not believe that anyone could love me and anyone who did show any for of affection I credited with some underlying motive which could be absolutely rediculous and I look at it now and the reasons I came up with usually were.
When I came here God crossed my path with an awesome woman of God (who shall remain nameless for her privacy). Now though I should have realised she was on the senior leadership team at church I never did. She never made any secret of it but I believe God blinded me to that deliberatly because that would have been reason enough for me at that time in explaining away her "love". But it never registered.
This lady started to help me work through issues and I did some pretty horrible things when she started getting close to me to try and push her away. She would not be pushed away but held on and supported me through much. Through her I learned that people could and did love me and my philosphy changed. If I could be loved by imperfect people how much more by a perfect God. I was astounded at how he had managed to change my thinking so that I could begin to accept his love. Since then my life has been growing in leaps and bounds and all because of grace and mercy.

 

[LittleRocketBoy]

All I did was quote Jesus who is the exact and perfect revelation of God the Father.

Jesus is "name it and claim it?"

This is my point about reducing Jesus and God to the image of a mere theist. Jesus seems to be a nothing. What He said was not even worthy of consideration and given no weight as to the character and nature of God. Instead we quote Tozer and Meyers. Instead of taking Jesus as the last word on the character of God, we call what He said "name it and claim it" and suggest we get back to the subject of the REAL character of God...
Then we redefine what "good" means. Then weredefine what "receive" means.

Anything but just believe what Jesus said.
Anything but Jesus.

 

[JimfromOhio]

Actually, Tozer made better sense than any other Christian writers who wrote similar what Tozer wrote. Most of them were using James 4:2-3 "You want something but don't get it. You kill and covet, but you cannot have what you want. You quarrel and fight. You do not have, because you do not ask God. When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures."

Later near the end of the 4 chapter of James, there is a great reminder of God's will. Verses 13-17 "Now listen, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go to this or that city, spend a year there, carry on business and make money." Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes. Instead, you ought to say, "If it is the Lord's will, we will live and do this or that." As it is, you boast and brag. All such boasting is evil. Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins."

God is great. He is the greatest teacher, parent, savior, coach and much more. Who taught me what life really is and what to expect eternally. 1 Peter 1:7 These trials are only to test your faith, to show that it is strong and pure. It is being tested as fire tests and purifies gold--and your faith is far more precious to God than mere gold. So if your faith remains strong after being tried by fiery trials, it will bring you much praise and glory and honor on the day when Jesus Christ is revealed to the whole world.

Overcome By Faith: 1 John 5:3-5 "This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God."

When we pray to God for guidance and blessings. We should look from God's perspective rather than ours since God is GREAT and ALL-Knowing. I trust Him more than I trust myself. The main issue is how are we responding to the circumstances? "How does God want me to respond to this difficult situation?" Faith always pleases God, because it comes to grips with our own reality. Christian who have faith understand the reality of their lives. Faith in God allows us to go as far as we can while trusting in God's grace to overcome the difficulties we face. God is asking us to stay strong in faith, keep at it, to carry on, and to stick with it. In 2 Corinthians 12:9, God said: "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness."

 

[LittleRocketBoy]

You missed one

James 4:
2 You lust and do not have. You murder adncovet and cannot obtain. You fight and war. Yet you do not have because you do not ask.
3 You ask and do not erceive, because you ask amiss, that you may spend it on your pleasures.

Just because we pray and ask for something does not mean we will get it - God is assessing our hearts on the issue.

So we get our heart right and then ask correctly according to the will and nature of God.
Jesus did not lie.

 

[LittleRocketBoy]

It seems so odd to have to defend the character of God as truely good against those who have benefited from that goodness. Sometimes there is just nothing more you can say.

 

[TreeOfLife]

That's actually what Isaiah 45 says, Tree.

Concerning the works of my hands, command ye me.

Read through the book of Acts.

Peter didn't say: "well, if God wants, if it is God's will, then maybe..."

He said "In the name of Jesus, get up and walk"

That is Biblical Christianity.

Cheers,
|ZZ|

It is not biblical Christianity to believe that you are in anyway commanding God.

To come into agreement with what God has already said is not bossing God around. It is merely the lessor being coming into agreement with the Greater Being, God.

 

[KingZzub]

Isaiah 45 is not Biblical Christianity?

Hmmm...

 

[TreeOfLife]

Yet another example of the context being important:

Isa 45:1-13
"Thus says the LORD to His anointed,To Cyrus, whose right hand I have held--To subdue nations before him And loose the armor of kings,To open before him the double doors,So that the gates will not be shut: 2'I will go before you And make the crooked places straight;I will break in pieces the gates of bronze And cut the bars of iron. 3 I will give you the treasures of darkness And hidden riches of secret places,That you may know that I, the LORD,Who call you by your name,Am the God of Israel. 4 For Jacob My servant's sake,And Israel My elect,I have even called you by your name;I have named you, though you have not known Me. 5 I am the LORD, and there is no other;There is no God besides Me.I will gird you, though you have not known Me, 6 That they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting That there is none besides Me.I am the LORD, and there is no other; 7 I form the light and create darkness,I make peace and create calamity;I, the LORD, do all these things.'
8 "Rain down, you heavens, from above,And let the skies pour down righteousness;Let the earth open, let them bring forth salvation,And let righteousness spring up together.I, the LORD, have created it.
9 "Woe to him who strives with his Maker!Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth!Shall the clay say to him who forms it, 'What are you making?'Or shall your handiwork say, 'He has no hands'? 10 Woe to him who says to his father, 'What are you begetting?'Or to the woman, 'What have you brought forth?'"
11 Thus says the LORD,The Holy One of Israel, and his Maker:"Ask Me of things to come concerning My sons;And concerning the work of My hands, you command Me. 12 I have made the earth,And created man on it.I--My hands-- stretched out the heavens,And all their host I have commanded. 13 I have raised him up in righteousness,And I will direct all his ways;He shall build My city And let My exiles go free,Not for price nor reward,"Says the LORD of hosts.
NKJV

 

[KleinerApfel]

In the NIV verse 11 appears as a question -

"This is what the LORD says—
the Holy One of Israel, and its Maker:
Concerning things to come,
do you question me about my children,
or give me orders about the work of my hands?"

Some other versions translate it more as a statement.
Which is right?

 

[foadle]

So we get our heart right and then ask correctly according to the will and nature of God.
Jesus did not lie.

Nobody said that Jesus lied we were just giving the full picture on a partial picture that had been given.
While we are at it nobody is questioning the goodness of God. We know he is good.
LRB without trying to be rude why do you get so agreesive and deffensive about so many things (not just this thread). You seem to take things very personally. Have we offended you?

 

[Trish1947]

If all your going to recieve from God is adversity, sickness, a dire circumstance, when you ask, it would be better to just wait without asking. It will find you wheather you ask or not. Perhaps if you don't get God involved, it might be postponed. All these things happen to Christian and Non Christian alike. We can assume that all people saved or not, are serving and glorifying, the unknowable God. Then we must also believe that while Jesus was here, He was acting totally out of character of the Father when He healed all that came to Him, and said yes "I am willing", provided miraculously when there was no provision, died and bore you sins, and sicknesses, so you might be whole spirit, soul, and body.

 

[LittleRocketBoy]

Nobody said that Jesus lied we were just giving the full picture on a partial picture that had been given.
While we are at it nobody is questioning the goodness of God. We know he is good.
LRB without trying to be rude why do you get so agreesive and deffensive about so many things (not just this thread). You seem to take things very personally. Have we offended you?

Serious words may sound aggressive. We take Jesus and His completed work very seriously. To suggest He did not accomplish what He said He did is grevious indeed. We would to like to convey the seriousness of the matter.
He most certainly did show us the Father.
He did not fail.

 

[foadle]

Absolutely he did. Our issue in todays society is that we see him through the words of the Bible only. Yet we know that he was the fullment of all that had gone before him. Therefore we need to get a better image of who God is based on the rest of the Bible. We can't just say look at Jesus because we are not in that living relationship in that way that the first century church were. I am not diminishing the role of Jesus do not get me wrong. He is and should remain the most intergral part of our chirstian walk. What I am saying is that we can get a clearer image by looking at the rest of scripture also.
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable fro doctirn, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.
This question is one based on the instruction of righteousness - all scripture is relavent.

 

[Trish1947]

foadle...We can't just say look at Jesus because we are not in that living relationship in that way that the first century church were. I am not diminishing the role of Jesus do not get me wrong. He is and should remain the most intergral part of our chirstian walk. What I am saying is that we can get a clearer image by looking at the rest of scripture also.

I don't even know what to say about this comment. He is the head of the church. If he's not the head, then there is no relationship.

 

[foadle]

I am not denying that he is the head of the church and I am not saying don't look to him. That is, as I have said, the most intergral part of the christian walk. What I am saying is that we can get a deeper understanding by looking at all parts of the Bible to better understand the characters of both him and God.

 

[JimfromOhio]

When praying: Am I always truthful and honest? I claim to be a Christian, and I believe that the root of the matter is in me and the seed of God is in my heart. God may allow me to succeed when He has disciplined me to a point where I does not need to succeed to be happy. If I am elated by success and is cast down by failure will still make me a carnal Christian. At best, my fruit will have a worm in it. I want to be the Christian who concentrate on the root system of my life is going to bear fruit upward, because if I concentrate on the eye-appealing that are against God's will, I may end up a rootless failure. It is the heart that makes a Christian rich because he/she is rich according to what he/she is, not according what he/she has.

When Christ died on the Cross, (1 Corinthians 6:20) we were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in our bodies and in your spirit, which are God’s. True worship is to attribute worth to a real Being, one who is truly there and who is truly worthy. Who God REALLY is, and not part of our images. The purpose of the Holy Scriptures, the Bible is we are to learn what God is like and to acknowledge him as who He REALLY is -- to ascribe worth to him, to reflect upon the value, beauty, and character of God. If we don't do that, we are NOT worshiping God as God expected from us.

At the time of Easter, I reflect back to the Old Testament, expecially in Exodus is all about God. God's activity and throughout the whole course of the book you see God mightily at work. If you understood what the Tabernacle is, the message of the book of Exodus is that by means of the cross, God has made it possible for a holy, unchangeable God to dwell with us. The whole of the tabernacle is a picture of God's dwelling with his people. God is absolutely powerful, that God is omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, that God is immutable, never changes, that God is all wise, perfectly just, holy, righteous. God is causing all things to work together for our good, which means our eternal glory because we love God because He first loved us and purposed to bring us to His Great Glory.

Yes, God never lie and at the same time God will not contradict His will to please our desires and will. Isaiah 55:8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD. Isaiah 55:9"As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts. Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

God knows what is BEST for us and we are to have FAITH in Him whatever happens in this world. From God's point of view. I arrived naked from the womb of my mother; I will leave in the same condition--with nothing. There's a right time and way for everything. He knows my current state and my tomorrows, if I have one. The Bible clearly teaches that God knows beforehand what we will need and He will provide beforehand according to His will. Wisdom sees everything in focus and be able to trust God no matter what happens. God leads us to our destiny according to His will and glory. No matter what we do, God is always guiding us through our circumstances (good and bad). Nothing is impossible for Him. God is Good and at the same time, God is Holy and Sovereign.

 

[foadle]

Thank you Jim. That really makes a lot of sense and ultimately is the reason I posted this thread. I desire my heart to be constantly growing closer to him. Actually I got a little be of a rebuke from him recently telling me I get too impatient. I want to learn so much and know so much and as I was reading your post I was reminded of what he has been saying to me. Let him guide my heart and learning. I still believe the Bible is hugely important in revealing that but God does have the authority.