The changing world

[Romans 13:3]

In the light of the studies showing US influence declining by 2025 coupled with the growth of Islam, (Short story here) and the Crusades, I wonder if the Church's focus may take a turn to the Middle Ages and the focus it had then , keeping in mind the truth never changes.

Three part story on Crusades in view of modern context here.

 

[Anglian]

Dear Don,

Thank you for posting these links; I hope people will follow them.

The Copts still live under Muslim rule; still discriminated against in their own land; still second-class citizens. If Muslims in the West suffered the sort of discrimination which Copts suffer, we should never hear the end of it.

The fact is that the Muslims were the aggressors. They conquered Christian lands and, over time, made many forced conversions, and created conditions in which countries which had been the heartland of Christianity became lands in which Christians were a persecuted minority. The Crusades were a slightly bone-headed attempt to rescue the situation (bone-headed because the Latin Crusaders did not cooperate properly with the Eastern Roman Empire). Their failure was followed by another six hundred years of Muslim expansion, ending only in the 1680s when the Turks were driven back from the gates of Vienna.

What the Muslims are really complaining about is that over the last two centuries the spread of Islam has been checked and its power has receded; they didn't complain when they were winning; but who does?

peace,

Anglian

 

[Globalnomad]

I wonder if the Church's focus and take may a turn to the Middle Ages, keeping in mind the truth never changes.

What do you mean, Don? I don't understand.

 

[Romans 13:3]

My thought, though I see now typo filled, was that at one point the people of Church, through the more than tacit support of the Holy See, were encouraged to liberate the Holy Land from the Muslim people. This was in response, at least in part, to the problems faced during Christian pilgrimages.

At the most basic level, I am wondering if the Church could call on the faithful once again to wage an open war in order to maintain the faith and Traditions.

 

[Anglian]

Dear Don,

Thank you for the explication.

No, I don't think, as Christians, we should be in the business of raising a war against anyone except Satan.

peace,

Anglian

 

[Globalnomad]

My thought, though I see now typo filled, was that at one point the people of Church, through the more than tacit support of the Holy See, were encouraged to liberate the Holy Land from the Muslim people. This was in response, at least in part, to the problems faced during Christian pilgrimages.

At the most basic level, I am wondering if the Church could call on the faithful once again to wage an open war in order to maintain the faith and Traditions.

Hell no!

War against whom? Islam? Just how is that going to maintain our Faith and Traditions?

Don, Alexander Solzhenystin said it best: (I quote from memory - not 100% accurate)

"If only it were that easy, to destroy evil by identifying evil persons around us and tearign them out! But the line that divides good from evil crosses the heart of each one of us. And which one of us will tear out a part of his own heart?"

Even moderate Islam takes that line, when it defines Jihad as the war that each faithful must fight in his own heart and his own family, every day, against Satan. Surely you don't want us to go the way of extremists, the way that we were when we were still barbarians, the way Christ told us specifically not to take!

 

[Romans 13:3]

I think it is an interesting thing to consider, at least at an intellectual level. I don't pretend to think we could find all 'bad' people and eliminate them. I think that any body can be pushed only so far and the Church is no exception. Especially so in in the light of some of the personal revelations such as St. Malachy, and the Final Secret of Fatima.

I am not one to put a lot of stock in private revelation, but only a fool would not compare and contrast and look for common thread and then place that knowledge into its appropriate historical context.

 

[Globalnomad]

Don, let's turn this in a positive direction. It's an interesting thought in a way, as you say.

So. "Real" war is out. What else? How else can we wage an "open war in order to maintain the Faith and the Tradition", usefully and in the spirit of the teachings of Christ, and without falling again into the sin of imposing the Faith on people against their free will?

 

[Anglian]

Dear Globalnomad,

So nice to be with you on a thread again

Let us try to take this in a positive direction. The temptation to take the concept of a clash of civilizations to the next level, that of a real war, is clear; but is it one to which, as Christians, we should succumb?

There are some, among the younger generation of Copts, who look at the violence practiced by some Muslims and wonder whether they would not get more attention from the world's media if they, too, resorted to violence; but that is not what Christ tells us to do. He tells us to love those who hate us. Hatred and warfare are for the carnal man, the old Adam; we are saved from that; but from us a higher standard is required.

Ideas cannot be killed, and the war in Iraq and Afghanistan has only helped inflame the Muslim word still further; whatever one considers the terms for a 'Just War' to be, a war of aggression seems ruled out. How do we 'fight' Islam? Well, we might actually try being as committed to living our faith as some Muslims; that might be a start.

How strange, how odd and how sad that some of our young here in the West turn to Islam because they find there a stronger spiritual home than they think is available to them in Christianity. When we begin to understand that phenomenon, we might be able to do what the Church has always done - bring people to the Lord.

We don't begin that process in war.

peace,

Anglian

 

[Romans 13:3]

Anglian:

Of course you are there and have better perspective than me based on what I have read, but I fear for Europe. The social constructions may lead to their destruction. As the number of both Islamic immigrants and conversions grow, the political will is bound to change in any republic. I also think we can agree that Turkey has been a good partner in NATO, but they are a secular government.

Understand that I am not advocating an actual war, but I am stating that Catholics along with Copts and EO folks of like minds, should understand why the Crusades were fought and see the similarities of our current world. This, coupled with the idea that what was true in 1200 is true today, gives one to consider that again the West is looking at the possibility of Muslim oppression, albeit from the inside out this time, not to mention the continue poor state of affairs for some Christians in the Muslim world.

 

[Globalnomad]

Hi, Anglian!

Don, we certainly need to be more assertive about our faith - we should in fact learn from the Muslims to some extent in this respect. But that bears no semblance to anything that you might call a war. It's simply the same fundamental idea: strengthening our own faith.

What we need to learn is where to draw the line between asserting our faith and our Christian roots, and yet not imposing our values on others.

I believe we need to give a lot more room in European schools for teaching religion. Give kids a choice t o go or not to go, offer teachings of the various faiths, but keep it in the curriculum.

I believe that banning religious symbols - including headscarves - in French schools went overboard. It was not just. On the other hand, I would forbid, without batting an eyelid, the wearing of face veils, because THAT goes against a fundamental human value, that of showing your face - the window of your personhood - to the world.

I see nothing wrong with building a mosque in Rome - in fact I welcome it - but we should be a lot more aggressive about demanding the right to build churches for the Christian migrant communities in Muslim countries. And of course supporting our Coptic brothers, who are still facing difficulties every day when they want to build or restore a church for themselves. And being a lot more vocal about the rights of Christian Palestinians, who seem to be forgotten between the two warring factions.

And we must continue lobbying to include the clause about Christian roots in the European constitution. (We should also include Judaism in the same sentence. A lot of what is best about culture and civilization in the area I come from, is actually due to the Jewish community.)

Any other ideas?

 

[Weird]

I think our "war" should be to maintain our Faith and Traditions in the middle of everything... Crusades did not help but missionary like St.Francis did... I pray we can all be a living example to all around us... "To stand firm"...

I think, as well, that prayers are the best way, in all times when Christian were minority it was only prtayer that kept their lives...

I kindly ask for you to pray for the middle east... I live where Christians 15 years ago where 505 but now are only 30%...

Hope i was not off topic.