The Catholic Perspective on "Did God Create Death?"

[ChristianMystic]

Catholics (knowledgeable Catholics that is) do not believe God created death! In fact, this makes no sense and is contrary to logic and Christian faith in so many ways. Yet, I just got out of mass where a guest priest gave a homily and included discussion on today's Wisdom 1 reading:

"God did not make death,
nor does he rejoice in the destruction of the living.
For he fashioned all things that they might have being;
and the creatures of the world are wholesome,
and there is not a destructive drug among them
nor any domain of the netherworld on earth,
for justice is undying.
For God formed man to be imperishable;
the image of his own nature he made him.
But by the envy of the devil, death entered the world,
and they who belong to his company experience it. "

The priest went on to describe how "the writer" (the writer?) didn't know anything about science, and how death exists due to entropy (though he didn't use that word, just described how dirt breaks apart or something to that effect), and in short...how God indeed must have created death.

Whoa!

Okay, this instance in the Bible is not the only place one can find where it is written that God is not the god/creator of death. But since I do not know the priest, I did not speak with him afterward. Instead, I went online to Catholic Forums (not this site) to read what other Catholics are discussing in this. And my jaw dropped! There was actually back and forth confusion on the subject, as if it were up for debate. And the discussion went on to include that the Catechism isn't clear on this subject. And then someone actually went so far as to say that Jesus died for us, and therefore death must not be evil. ??? Jesus died because of sin! Right? Our sins. I thought that was Christianity 101. And Jesus didn't even want it...He even said so...probably not so much that He was afraid (though He must've known it would hurt), but mainly because it was so incredibly wrong. While He made it clear that there is no greater love than this: to lays one's life down for another, this was not a justification of the evil that caused His death...he allowed it to make things right, as perfect love atones for sin. The Catechism (and Scripture its basis) is clear, the devil and man had their hand in the crucifixion...not God. He just knew it would take place...not the same thing.

The Catechism is also clear, "God does not cause suffering...but sometimes allows it". Note the word is "allow" and not "permit", as permit implies condoning (even though the words are almost identical in meaning in English...they are two different words). Since all death involves suffering (even if only suffering with sorrow and not physical pain), God could not have created death, else he would have caused it directly, and thus...the suffering. It can only be one way...one false part of a statement makes the whole statement false.

Scripture and the Catechism are both clear, death is the culmination of sin and sin is evil. Evil, by definition, is the absence of God...or more accurately, a lack of interaction with God, as God is Omnipresent (He's everywhere). This could be analogous to how microwave ovens heat up liquids and carbohydrates, but not certain plastics and paper...just no interaction...even though the microwaves are passing in and out and around anything placed in the oven. Got it?

So, if God is everywhere, but does not interact with everything (only that which He created and is that which is holy...not the corruption of what He created), then death is followed by the separation of his originally created "good" creations and Him due to sin. The word "sin" comes from archery, meaning, "to miss the target"...to miss Him...to separate from His teaching/lead. The word "sine" (ever seen a sine wave?) also comes from this meaning. It is clear that we are separated (not fully in union) from God in some way while in this world...thus death is inevitable. But, that does not mean He created the separation...He simply created an environment (the physical world) where separation is possible, though not necessarily desirable...so that we could come to Him, choose Him. After all, if you do not choose to love someone (it is forced), then it is not love at all. Perfect love must involve choice, thus...the environment to choose to separate oneself from God needed to be created. I thought this was all obvious Christian stuff.

So, I'd like to put this out there, 'cause I have heard far too many people blame God for "taking their loved one's away", and it is appalling that this sort of talk still goes on: Do you really believe the devil's lie that God created death?

 

[ebia]

Death is isn't a positive thing to create. It's the absence of life.

 

[WarriorAngel]

God created us to with Him.
We created a divide thru disobedience - therefore; God allowed us to know 'good and evil' which came thru our disobedience and death being evil - was part of the package.
We had to be separated from Him - which tho seems like it was created - tho it was a given known fact [to satan] that disobedience cannot be left in His Presence.
Only purity and good can remain to stand before Him for His purity.
Why?
Because He is Wholey Pure and Good and anything that takes on impurity would suffer greatly before Him.

NOTE:
Adam and Eve hid. It became instinct to hide and they feared Him.
So separation was necessary.

NOTE:
Humans feared His voice and requested to not hear Him.
Thus the creation of prophets and using inspiration.

I am groping for the precise word for this - it wasnt created so much as a direct outcome of the actions due to His profound Purity which nothing impure could stand.. without fright or suffering...in His Presence.

It was for our good to be separated.
And in death [per His pure loving sacrifice] He took on punishment due us and washed our souls making us pure to be able to stand before Him once again.

 

[Fish and Bread]

I have always felt that an omnipresent omnipotent omniscient God who created the heavens and the earth would bare some measure of moral responsibility for everything that exists and everything that occurs in the universe. Whether God created hell directly or just created Lucifer and let him create hell is almost irrelevant, especially considering that God assigns people there by refusing them entry to heaven and not creating a less hellish non-heaven on a permanent basis (There's purgatory, but that's temporary) to send them to or just having the people who don't go to heaven cease to exist.

I'm not criticizing God or excusing God or anything. This is a fairly judgement neutral post. I'm just saying, almost by definition, if he's as described in the Christian tradition, it's all on him one way or the other. Whatever exists is part of his plan, and something he could prevent or make optional with a wave of his hand.

I'd really like to someone find a theological "out" that would allow me to believe that the Christian God does not allow a hell. One thing I often focus on is that in the Old Testament, during a time when people were exacting harsher punishments than the crimes that people committed, God stepped in and limited it to an eye for an eye. Then, in the New Testament, he reformed it even further and said, not even an eye for an eye anymore, but we should punish people less than what their offenses merit.

Then I look at hell. And I think, whatever someone does in a finite time here on earth can't merit infinite torture. That would go against the moral reasoning of God's Old Testament law for the Jews that mandated an eye for an eye, and Jesus Christ's New Testament reasoning for Christians that mandated even less punishment.

Now, of course we can say that perhaps God was saying "Do as I say and not as I do" in both cases, but I'd like to think God is beyond that. "Do as I say and not as I do" is essentially Jesus' indictment of a lot of the religious leaders of his time in one of the Gospels, using different words, so I have hope that God wouldn't say the same thing as the religious leaders Jesus was criticizing.

Still, I think there's a hell. I don't like it, but I can't really be properly classified as a universalist, because at some level, I believe some people are probably burning, even though I find that thought highly disturbing and have hope that maybe God has come up with a better solution and it's not what we think.

 

[FlaviusAetius]

Now, of course we can say that perhaps God was saying "Do as I say and not as I do" in both cases, but I'd like to think God is beyond that. "Do as I say and not as I do" is essentially Jesus' indictment of a lot of the religious leaders of his time in one of the Gospels, using different words, so I have hope that God wouldn't say the same thing as the religious leaders Jesus was criticizing.

God can't be compared too religious leaders. The God of Job seemed perfectly content to leave a man to suffer his angel's cruelty just to prove a bet. And when Job begs God for an answer to why a good man must suffer His only response is too shut up because God is all-powerful and human suffering means nothing to Him.

I agree with you, God created Hell, He created death and all the human suffering that came from the Fall. God had to take a moment to think up all the cruel and horrible ways to torture his creations after they disobeyed him, something God knew in advanced would happen.

And when we go astray in this god forsaken world, when we choose to live in sin because we can't find any goodness of divinity in this earthly existence...God choose to punish us for it with an eternity of suffering. As you said, God could have chosen to make Hell a more comforting existence or if not that at least a temporary suffering that could be relieved after a human soul was punished enough and saw the error of their ways. Even if a human soul suffered 6 billion years in Hell, that's still more merciful than spending an eternity in that Hellish domain.

None of his faithful can offer any proper response too this injustice.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

FlaviusAetius,

Actually, the reason Job suffered was because God gave free will not only to us but also to the angels that He created. God allowed Satan his free will to do what he wanted with Job. So whether it's Satan causing our suffering or whether we do it to each other we suffer and die because we all have free will and often choose to abuse it by sinning. Also, whatever Job lost God returned to him and gave him even more.

 

[FlaviusAetius]

Except Satan needed God's permission and couldn't kill Job. Legion needed Jesus permission to possess the pigs.

Also would you be ok with God killing your kids and making it up to you by giving you new kids and a new wife?

 

[WarriorAngel]

I have always felt that an omnipresent omnipotent omniscient God who created the heavens and the earth would bare some measure of moral responsibility for everything that exists and everything that occurs in the universe. Whether God created hell directly or just created Lucifer and let him create hell is almost irrelevant, especially considering that God assigns people there by refusing them entry to heaven and not creating a less hellish non-heaven on a permanent basis (There's purgatory, but that's temporary) to send them to or just having the people who don't go to heaven cease to exist.

I'm not criticizing God or excusing God or anything. This is a fairly judgement neutral post. I'm just saying, almost by definition, if he's as described in the Christian tradition, it's all on him one way or the other. Whatever exists is part of his plan, and something he could prevent or make optional with a wave of his hand.

I'd really like to someone find a theological "out" that would allow me to believe that the Christian God does not allow a hell. One thing I often focus on is that in the Old Testament, during a time when people were exacting harsher punishments than the crimes that people committed, God stepped in and limited it to an eye for an eye. Then, in the New Testament, he reformed it even further and said, not even an eye for an eye anymore, but we should punish people less than what their offenses merit.

Then I look at hell. And I think, whatever someone does in a finite time here on earth can't merit infinite torture. That would go against the moral reasoning of God's Old Testament law for the Jews that mandated an eye for an eye, and Jesus Christ's New Testament reasoning for Christians that mandated even less punishment.

Now, of course we can say that perhaps God was saying "Do as I say and not as I do" in both cases, but I'd like to think God is beyond that. "Do as I say and not as I do" is essentially Jesus' indictment of a lot of the religious leaders of his time in one of the Gospels, using different words, so I have hope that God wouldn't say the same thing as the religious leaders Jesus was criticizing.

Still, I think there's a hell. I don't like it, but I can't really be properly classified as a universalist, because at some level, I believe some people are probably burning, even though I find that thought highly disturbing and have hope that maybe God has come up with a better solution and it's not what we think.

Obviously - we dont know if God could choose to wave His hand or if He chose instead to let us know good from evil as we chose and therefore - prove His love for us - by dying for us.
And furthermore - what good would do to wave His hand when He already gave them absolutely everything they needed - they were perfect and free to chose.
Waving His hand would not given them the ability to prove they would love Him as He needed from them.

 

[WarriorAngel]

That wasnt a bet - about Job.
God was showing satan that there was a faithful man who loved him. satan was scoffing God for his creatures not being faithful or loving.
So satan wanted to tempt Job saying he only loved God because he was so blessed.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

Except Satan needed God's permission and couldn't kill Job. Legion needed Jesus permission to possess the pigs.

Also would you be ok with God killing your kids and making it up to you by giving you new kids and a new wife?

But Satan got God's permission to cause bad things to happen to Job because of free will. And the demons didn't need the permission of Jesus to enter the pigs. They simply chose to go there when Jesus drove them out of the possessed man.

Edit: I forgot to mention something crucial. The God of the Old Testament is the same God who came down from Heaven to suffer and die for us because of our sins.

 

[Rhamiel]

Adam and Eve brought death into this world through their sin
we can see this clearly in Genesis, in Wisdom of Solomon, and in many other places in the Bible that the wages of sin is death

you might want to talk to your priest about this

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

The Fathers tell us that God PERMITTED death as a concession to the alternative of eternal sin! Adam and Eve (I know so many in here are pro-evolution and thus will laugh at my belief in the Creation and really believing in the Genesis narrative like the Fathers did, but here goes!) ate from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. With this, sin entered into their being. The second tree was the Tree of Immortality. If Adam and Eve were to eat from the second tree, they'd IMMORTALIZE SIN and perpetually be locked into its matrix. As a result, God, because He loves us so much, permitted death as a consequence to sin so that our first parents and their children for generations to come, wouldn't be bound eternally to sin. Better to die than to carry sin in perpetuity. Christ came to rescue us from death, reboot the human condition, and renew us completely. Death was NOT part of creation nor was it God's desire. It is a result of mankind's sin, and not part of God's ultimate destiny for us.

 

[MoreCoffee]

The Fathers tell us that God PERMITTED death as a concession to the alternative of eternal sin! Adam and Eve (I know so many in here are pro-evolution and thus will laugh at my belief in the Creation and really believing in the Genesis narrative like the Fathers did, but here goes!) ate from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. With this, sin entered into their being. The second tree was the Tree of Immortality. If Adam and Eve were to eat from the second tree, they'd IMMORTALIZE SIN and perpetually be locked into its matrix. As a result, God, because He loves us so much, permitted death as a consequence to sin so that our first parents and their children for generations to come, wouldn't be bound eternally to sin. Better to die than to carry sin in perpetuity. Christ came to rescue us from death, reboot the human condition, and renew us completely. Death was NOT part of creation nor was it God's desire. It is a result of mankind's sin, and not part of God's ultimate destiny for us.

For God created man to be immortal, and made him to be an image of his own eternity. Nevertheless through envy of the devil came death into the world: and they that do hold of his side do find it. (Wisdom 2:23-24 KJV)

You are right gurney, God's creation didn't include death for mankind but death came because of sin and Christ came to end the power of death.

Death

1006 "It is in regard to death that man's condition is most shrouded in doubt."565 In a sense bodily death is natural, but for faith it is in fact "the wages of sin."566 For those who die in Christ's grace it is a participation in the death of the Lord, so that they can also share his Resurrection.567

1007 Death is the end of earthly life. Our lives are measured by time, in the course of which we change, grow old and, as with all living beings on earth, death seems like the normal end of life. That aspect of death lends urgency to our lives: remembering our mortality helps us realize that we have only a limited time in which to bring our lives to fulfillment:

Remember also your Creator in the days of your youth, . . . before the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.568

1008 Death is a consequence of sin. the Church's Magisterium, as authentic interpreter of the affirmations of Scripture and Tradition, teaches that death entered the world on account of man's sin.569 Even though man's nature is mortal God had destined him not to die. Death was therefore contrary to the plans of God the Creator and entered the world as a consequence of sin.570 "Bodily death, from which man would have been immune had he not sinned" is thus "the last enemy" of man left to be conquered.571

1009 Death is transformed by Christ. Jesus, the Son of God, also himself suffered the death that is part of the human condition. Yet, despite his anguish as he faced death, he accepted it in an act of complete and free submission to his Father's will.572 The obedience of Jesus has transformed the curse of death into a blessing.573

The meaning of Christian death

1010 Because of Christ, Christian death has a positive meaning: "For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain."574 "The saying is sure: if we have died with him, we will also live with him.575 What is essentially new about Christian death is this: through Baptism, the Christian has already "died with Christ" sacramentally, in order to live a new life; and if we die in Christ's grace, physical death completes this "dying with Christ" and so completes our incorporation into him in his redeeming act:

It is better for me to die in (eis) Christ Jesus than to reign over the ends of the earth. Him it is I seek - who died for us. Him it is I desire - who rose for us. I am on the point of giving birth .... Let me receive pure light; when I shall have arrived there, then shall I be a man.576

1011 In death, God calls man to himself. Therefore the Christian can experience a desire for death like St. Paul's: "My desire is to depart and be with Christ. "577 He can transform his own death into an act of obedience and love towards the Father, after the example of Christ:578

My earthly desire has been crucified; . . . there is living water in me, water that murmurs and says within me: Come to the Father.579
I want to see God and, in order to see him, I must die.580
I am not dying; I am entering life.581

1012 The Christian vision of death receives privileged expression in the liturgy of the Church:582

Lord, for your faithful people life is changed, not ended. When the body of our earthly dwelling lies in death we gain an everlasting dwelling place in heaven.583

1013 Death is the end of man's earthly pilgrimage, of the time of grace and mercy which God offers him so as to work out his earthly life in keeping with the divine plan, and to decide his ultimate destiny. When "the single course of our earthly life" is completed,584 we shall not return to other earthly lives: "It is appointed for men to die once."585 There is no "reincarnation" after death.

1014 The Church encourages us to prepare ourselves for the hour of our death. In the litany of the saints, for instance, she has us pray: "From a sudden and unforeseen death, deliver us, O Lord";586 to ask the Mother of God to intercede for us "at the hour of our death" in the Hail Mary; and to entrust ourselves to St. Joseph, the patron of a happy death.

Every action of yours, every thought, should be those of one who expects to die before the day is out. Death would have no great terrors for you if you had a quiet conscience .... Then why not keep clear of sin instead of running away from death? If you aren't fit to face death today, it's very unlikely you will be tomorrow ....587

Praised are you, my Lord, for our sister bodily Death,
from whom no living man can escape.
Woe on those who will die in mortal sin!
Blessed are they who will be found in your most holy will,
for the second death will not harm them.588​

565 GS 18.
566 ⇒ Rom 6:23; cf. ⇒ Gen 2:17.
567 Cf. ⇒ Rom 6:3-9; ⇒ Phil 3:10-11.
568 ⇒ Eccl 12:1, 7.
569 Cf. ⇒ Gen 2:17; ⇒ 3:3; ⇒ 3:19; ⇒ Wis 1:13; ⇒ Rom 5:12; ⇒ 6:23; DS 1511.
570 Cf. ⇒ Wis 2:23-24.
571 GS 18 # 2; cf. ⇒ 1 Cor 15:26.
572 Cf. ⇒ Mk 14:33-34; ⇒ Heb 5:7-8.
573 Cf. ⇒ Rom 5:19-21.
574 ⇒ Phil 1:21.
575 ⇒ 2 Tim 2:11.
576 St. Ignatius of Antioch, Ad Rom., 6, 1-2: Apostolic Fathers, II/2, 217-220.
577 ⇒ Phil 1:23.
578 Cf. ⇒ Lk 23:46.
579 St. Ignatius of Antioch, Ad Rom., 6, 1- 2: Apostolic Fathers, II/2, 223-224.
580 St. Teresa of Avila, Life, chap. 1.
581 St. Therese of Lisieux, the Last Conversations.
582 Cf. I Thess 4:13-14.
583 Roman Missal, Preface of Christian Death I.
584 LG 48 # 3.
585 ⇒ Heb 9:27.
586 Roman Missal, Litany of the saints
587 The Imitation of Christ, 1, 23, 1.
588 St. Francis of Assisi Canticle of the Creatures.​

​

 

[WarriorAngel]

God didnt create anything evil - it's just everything outside of HIM is not going to be good.
Thus knowing the difference between good and evil - is knowing God which is Good and then not wanting His Holy Will - is evil.

 

[RileyG]

Sin and Death are NOT normal. They will always happen- but they are not normal. God made us to be completely united to him- body and soul- due to the fall humans now sin and die. the end.