The Catholic Mass explained

[tz620q]

You said...………….
"So missing mass isn't about being saved or not. That is your framework, not ours."

I actually said in Post #9 ........
"The Catholic church teaches that missing Mass is a mortal sin."

So then we see that it was actually YOUR framework and not mine. I just said that it is taught by the RCC that missing Mass is a mortal sin.

To say that church attendance makes us a Christian is the same as saying that if we stand in a garage we are then a car.

The only sin that dams a mans soul to hell is UNBELIEF.
Praise the Lord !!!!

I think we probably agree upon much of this; but actually in post #20 you stated,
"So what happens to a Catholic who misses Mass and dies in MORTAL SIN?

Then you would have to then attend church services to be saved. That is doing something for salvation and has nothing to do with listening to anyone as you suggested.

The root is...…….."Do you have to attend Mass to be saved".

If so then that is salvation by works no matter how it is worded or thought out or rationalized."

The only thing I have asked in this thread is to ask you this question, "Does sin have an affect on salvation?"

So we agree upon the statement that missing Mass will not cause you to lose your salvation; but the corollary is not necessarily true that Mass attendance has no affect on salvation. Mortal sins are like mortal wounds. They are not necessarily fatal but injure us.

There are probably many kids that are eternally irked at the Catholic Church because to them, they were dragged to Mass against their unformed will and told that it was a requirement. That is just parents taking the easy way out without trying to form the children into true disciples of God who want to go to Mass and worship God. There are two things that should be pointed out here. First, not worshiping God is being disobedient, not just to the Catholic Church; but to God's commandments. Second, Church comes with a gift of the Eucharist and the Word. If we are truly seeking God, there should be a yearning for these.

 

[Major1]

I think we probably agree upon much of this; but actually in post #20 you stated,
"So what happens to a Catholic who misses Mass and dies in MORTAL SIN?

Then you would have to then attend church services to be saved. That is doing something for salvation and has nothing to do with listening to anyone as you suggested.

The root is...…….."Do you have to attend Mass to be saved".

If so then that is salvation by works no matter how it is worded or thought out or rationalized."

The only thing I have asked in this thread is to ask you this question, "Does sin have an affect on salvation?"

So we agree upon the statement that missing Mass will not cause you to lose your salvation; but the corollary is not necessarily true that Mass attendance has no affect on salvation. Mortal sins are like mortal wounds. They are not necessarily fatal but injure us.

There are probably many kids that are eternally irked at the Catholic Church because to them, they were dragged to Mass against their unformed will and told that it was a requirement. That is just parents taking the easy way out without trying to form the children into true disciples of God who want to go to Mass and worship God. There are two things that should be pointed out here. First, not worshiping God is being disobedient, not just to the Catholic Church; but to God's commandments. Second, Church comes with a gift of the Eucharist and the Word. If we are truly seeking God, there should be a yearning for these.

Agreed.

I myself had a drug problem from birth to about age 15 or so.

My parents "Drug" me to church every time the doors were open.

Hebrews 10:25...…….
"Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching."

 

[Albion]

There are two things that should be pointed out here. First, not worshiping God is being disobedient, not just to the Catholic Church; but to God's commandments. Second, Church comes with a gift of the Eucharist and the Word. If we are truly seeking God, there should be a yearning for these.

Yes, but this is different from contending that to miss Mass is a mortal sin.

I would easily agree that attending Mass is good, and receiving the sacrament is good. Also, that disdaining worship is bad.

But none of that addresses the question: does missing Mass (each Sunday and any Holy Day of Obligation) incur a mortal sin which, if the person were to then die, would cost him his salvation?

 

[Major1]

I think we probably agree upon much of this; but actually in post #20 you stated,
"So what happens to a Catholic who misses Mass and dies in MORTAL SIN?

Then you would have to then attend church services to be saved. That is doing something for salvation and has nothing to do with listening to anyone as you suggested.

The root is...…….."Do you have to attend Mass to be saved".

If so then that is salvation by works no matter how it is worded or thought out or rationalized."

The only thing I have asked in this thread is to ask you this question, "Does sin have an affect on salvation?"

So we agree upon the statement that missing Mass will not cause you to lose your salvation; but the corollary is not necessarily true that Mass attendance has no affect on salvation. Mortal sins are like mortal wounds. They are not necessarily fatal but injure us.

There are probably many kids that are eternally irked at the Catholic Church because to them, they were dragged to Mass against their unformed will and told that it was a requirement. That is just parents taking the easy way out without trying to form the children into true disciples of God who want to go to Mass and worship God. There are two things that should be pointed out here. First, not worshiping God is being disobedient, not just to the Catholic Church; but to God's commandments. Second, Church comes with a gift of the Eucharist and the Word. If we are truly seeking God, there should be a yearning for these.

Read post # 25.

 

[tz620q]

Yes, but this is different from contending that to miss Mass is a mortal sin.

I would easily agree that attending Mass is good, and receiving the sacrament is good. Also, that disdaining worship is bad.

But none of that addresses the question: does missing Mass (each Sunday and any Holy Day of Obligation) incur a mortal sin which, if the person were to then die, would cost him his salvation?

Mortal or grave sin does have an affect on our relationship with God. This will be weighed by God when he decides our fate. Why do you keep thinking that the Church, which does not see salvation as an event but a lifetime process, would make missing Mass a condition on our salvation. This silly hypothetical of someone dying right after missing Mass would also have to hypothetically kill this person instantaneously, so that they would have 0 time to repent. Even then, the Church does not say that mortal sin leads to spiritual death, only that it wounds our spiritual health. I agree with Major1. The only sin that causes spiritual death is unbelief. That is only because the unbeliever will never see the need to repent. They have destroyed or suppressed the Holy Spirit within themselves to that point. All other sins are recoverable.

 

[Albion]

Mortal or grave sin does have an affect on our relationship with God. This will be weighed by God when he decides our fate. Why do you keep thinking that the Church, which does not see salvation as an event but a lifetime process, would make missing Mass a condition on our salvation.

Because she does. She teaches that to miss Mass is a mortal sin and she also teaches that to die with an unforgiven mortal sin "on your soul" means a loss of salvation.

 

[tz620q]

Because she does. She teaches that to miss Mass is a mortal sin and she also teaches that to die with an unforgiven mortal sin "on your soul" means a loss of salvation.

I have found one place in the Catechism that deal with this from this link
IV. HELL

1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him." Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren. To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell."

1034 Jesus often speaks of "Gehenna" of "the unquenchable fire" reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost. Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire," and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!"

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire." The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

1036 The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few."

Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed, we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where "men will weep and gnash their teeth."

1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want "any to perish, but all to come to repentance"

In paragraph 1036, it references the narrow and wide gates. In Christ's time in Israel, the towns had a wide gate that was opened during the day to let merchants and travelers into the town. At night this was shut. Returning residents of the town would reenter the town at night through the narrow gate. If you weren't a resident, then you did not get admittance. Christ used this analogy to show that God already knows those residents of Heaven that will enter by the narrow gate, if they ask admittance. Turning away from God by not worshiping Him can hardly be seen as asking admittance. That does not mean we won't turn and ask later.

Let me ask you a question, does your church make an extraordinary effort to make sure a person has a chance to repent prior to death? If not, why not? Isn't this repentance a necessary thing or do you see sin as merely a blemish overlooked by God because His son died for sin 2000 years ago.

 

[Albion]

I am afraid that the more recent versions of the Catechism specialize in being as evasive as possible when it comes to the touchy or less popular teachings of the church. However that may be, the section you quoted to me is about Hell. That is not really what we were talking about. So I hope that you continue your search, using Catholic materials, of course.

Let me ask you a question, does your church make an extraordinary effort to make sure a person has a chance to repent prior to death? If not, why not? Isn't this repentance a necessary thing or do you see sin as merely a blemish overlooked by God because His son died for sin 2000 years ago.

I may not be following your question well, but sure; the church teaches the importance of repentance.

Every Mass includes a confession of sins and an absolution in addition to the "Prayer of Humble Access" which expresses similar ideas and is said aloud by the priest prior to the distribution of Holy Communion.

 

[ripple the car]

As a Baptist, the Real Presence was pretty clear to me, even while only able to read Scripture.

So was the uniqueness of Peter among the Apostles, and the importance of works and faith in our salvation. That just made sense. Scripturally.

Even Mary. Revelation 12 and Psalms 2. Slowly, stuff started coming together.

 

[tz620q]

I am afraid that the more recent versions of the Catechism specialize in being as evasive as possible when it comes to the touchy or less popular teachings of the church. However that may be, the section you quoted to me is about Hell. That is not really what we were talking about. So I hope that you continue your search, using Catholic materials, of course.


I may not be following your question well, but sure; the church teaches the importance of repentance.

Every Mass includes a confession of sins and an absolution in addition to the "Prayer of Humble Access" which expresses similar ideas and is said aloud by the priest prior to the distribution of Holy Communion.

The section on Mortal sin does not not touch on salvation at all. So you have made the claim. Please post your references that link the mortal sin of missing Mass with loss of salvation as you have stated.

On the Anglican Church's confession of sins and absolution, would someone who missed that service also receive that absolution?

 

[Albion]

The section on Mortal sin does not not touch on salvation at all. So you have made the claim. Please post your references that link the mortal sin of missing Mass with loss of salvation as you have stated.

It took me about ten seconds to find the following in Catholic Answers:

Scripture teaches that one’s final salvation depends on the state of the soul at death. As Jesus himself tells us, “He who endures to the end will be saved” (Matt. 24:13; cf. 25:31–46). One who dies in the state of friendship with God (the state of grace) will go to heaven. The one who dies in a state of enmity and rebellion against God (the state of mortal sin) will go to hell.

So the only question remaining is this: Is intentionally missing Mass on Sunday a mortal sin? And Catholic Straight Answers has pulled together this material for you:

...the Code of Canon Law (#1246) proscribes, “Sunday is the day on which the paschal mystery is celebrated in light of the apostolic tradition and is to be observed as the foremost holy day of obligation in the universal Church.” Moreover, “On Sundays and other holy days of obligation, the faithful are bound to participate in the Mass…” (#1247). Therefore, the Catechism teaches, “Those who deliberately fail in this obligation commit grave sin” (#2181), and grave sin is indeed mortal sin. Our Holy Father, Pope John Paul II, repeated this precept in his apostolic letter Dies Domini (Observing and Celebrating the Day of the Lord, #47, 1998) and again in his encyclical Ecclesia de Eucharistia (On the Eucharist in Its Relationship to the Church, #41, 2003)

 

[tz620q]

It took me about ten seconds to find the following in Catholic Answers:


So the only question remaining is this: Is intentionally missing Mass on Sunday a mortal sin? And Catholic Straight Answers has pulled together this material for you:

The link doesn't work; but I found it under an article on "Assurance of Salvation?" Perhaps this context will help those who are reading this thread to understand what was being argued against. The article's main premise was this.

"All they have to do is “accept Christ as their personal Savior,” and it’s done. They might well live exemplary lives thereafter, but living well is not crucial and does not affect their salvation. But is this true? Does the Bible support this concept?

Scripture teaches that one’s final salvation depends on the state of the soul at death. As Jesus himself tells us, “He who endures to the end will be saved” (Matt. 24:13; cf. 25:31–46). One who dies in the state of friendship with God (the state of grace) will go to heaven. The one who dies in a state of enmity and rebellion against God (the state of mortal sin) will go to hell."

Apologetics is premise and counter-premise with logical arguments exchanged between them. It is not very effective if cut down to sound bytes and single sentence statements. And it is almost meaningless if pulled out of its context.

The second link is here
and ends with the following quote:
"God must come first in our lives. On Sunday, our primary duty is to worship God at Mass as a Church and to be nourished with His grace. The Didascalia, a third century writing, exhorted, “Leave everything on the Lord’s Day and run diligently to your assembly, because it is your praise of God. Otherwise, what excuse will they make to God, those who do not come together on the Lord’s Day to hear the word of life and feed on the divine nourishment which lasts forever?” Yes indeed, what excuse will they make?"

Now back to you. Does the Anglican Church have any requirements on its members to attend their services? Is there an emphasize on this or do they think that attendance is purely discretionary?

 

[Albion]

Now back to you. Does the Anglican Church have any requirements on its members to attend their services? Is there an emphasize on this or do they think that attendance is purely discretionary?

First, the issue we were discussing. Do I understand you to be agreeing that missing Mass without a good reason is a mortal sin and that and an unforgiven mortal sin means hell--in Roman Catholic teaching? That is what we all were discussing, not what Fundamentalists think by contrast or, for that matter, what Anglicans do.

Now, because you are concerned, there is an expectation of members being regular in attendance but no teaching that one intentional miss is a mortal sin, period. I have already told you that with us there is a lot that emphasizes the point and does so on a frequent basis. I think it is fair to say that there is more than happens in your own church, in fact.

 

[tz620q]

First, the issue we were discussing. Do I understand you to be agreeing that missing Mass without a good reason is a mortal sin and that and an unforgiven mortal sin means hell--in Roman Catholic teaching? That is what we all were discussing, not what Fundamentalists think by contrast or, for that matter, what Anglicans do.

Now, because you are concerned, there is an expectation of members being regular in attendance but no teaching that one intentional miss is a mortal sin, period. I have already told you that with us there is a lot that emphasizes the point and does so on a frequent basis. I think it is fair to say that there is more than happens in your own church, in fact.

I did not link to an apologetic aimed at Fundamentalist teaching. You did and without identifying the context. I merely went back and corrected your link and tried to put it in context. You are the one that is trying to take an apologetic website and use it as Catholic teaching. I referenced the Catechism, which is actual Catholic teaching. Here is the pertinent section again:
1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him." Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren. To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell."

So mortal sin is not the Church condemning the individual to hell. That is the child's view to avoid responsibility for their actions. Mortal sin can (and I emphasize can because we cannot know the mind of God) place us in a state of peril where if we die before confession, we separate ourselves from him by our own free choice.

 

[Major1]

Because she does. She teaches that to miss Mass is a mortal sin and she also teaches that to die with an unforgiven mortal sin "on your soul" means a loss of salvation.

And THAT is exactly why I asked the question in the beginning.

That being the FACT, then the Church plays a part in salvation which is 100% NOT BIBLICAL.

Ephesians 2:8-9...……….
"We are saved by grace through faith, AND NOT OF OUR SELVES least we would boast".

How else could God have worded that verse to make it more understandable???

 

[Major1]

The link doesn't work; but I found it under an article on "Assurance of Salvation?" Perhaps this context will help those who are reading this thread to understand what was being argued against. The article's main premise was this.

"All they have to do is “accept Christ as their personal Savior,” and it’s done. They might well live exemplary lives thereafter, but living well is not crucial and does not affect their salvation. But is this true? Does the Bible support this concept?

Scripture teaches that one’s final salvation depends on the state of the soul at death. As Jesus himself tells us, “He who endures to the end will be saved” (Matt. 24:13; cf. 25:31–46). One who dies in the state of friendship with God (the state of grace) will go to heaven. The one who dies in a state of enmity and rebellion against God (the state of mortal sin) will go to hell."

Apologetics is premise and counter-premise with logical arguments exchanged between them. It is not very effective if cut down to sound bytes and single sentence statements. And it is almost meaningless if pulled out of its context.

The second link is here
and ends with the following quote:
"God must come first in our lives. On Sunday, our primary duty is to worship God at Mass as a Church and to be nourished with His grace. The Didascalia, a third century writing, exhorted, “Leave everything on the Lord’s Day and run diligently to your assembly, because it is your praise of God. Otherwise, what excuse will they make to God, those who do not come together on the Lord’s Day to hear the word of life and feed on the divine nourishment which lasts forever?” Yes indeed, what excuse will they make?"

Now back to you. Does the Anglican Church have any requirements on its members to attend their services? Is there an emphasize on this or do they think that attendance is purely discretionary?

You have done exactly what you said should not be done my friend. You used Matthew 24 and 25 to quote and support what the Christian should do and be.

Matthew 24 and 25 has nothing to do with the church!!!!!

The Church was not in existence then and did not come into being until after the resurrection. The Church was a MYSTERY until Paul introduced it.

Matthew 24 is "CONTEXTUALLY" focused on the Jews, NOT THE CHURCH.

Matthew 25:31-46 is doctrinally referred to as the "Judgment of the Nations"
which is AFTER Armageddon and therefore does not apply to us today.

 

[Major1]

I did not link to an apologetic aimed at Fundamentalist teaching. You did and without identifying the context. I merely went back and corrected your link and tried to put it in context. You are the one that is trying to take an apologetic website and use it as Catholic teaching. I referenced the Catechism, which is actual Catholic teaching. Here is the pertinent section again:
1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him." Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren. To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell."

So mortal sin is not the Church condemning the individual to hell. That is the child's view to avoid responsibility for their actions. Mortal sin can (and I emphasize can because we cannot know the mind of God) place us in a state of peril where if we die before confession, we separate ourselves from him by our own free choice.

You said...……….
"Mortal sin can (and I emphasize can because we cannot know the mind of God) place us in a state of peril where if we die before confession, we separate ourselves from him by our own free choice. "

In addition to that we have this already posted which says...………..

“On Sundays and other holy days of obligation, the faithful are bound to participate in the Mass…” (#1247). Therefore, the Catechism teaches, “Those who deliberately fail in this obligation commit grave sin” (#2181), and grave sin is indeed mortal sin. Our Holy Father, Pope John Paul II, repeated this precept in his apostolic letter Dies Domini (Observing and Celebrating the Day of the Lord, #47, 1998) and again in his encyclical Ecclesia de Eucharistia (On the Eucharist in Its Relationship to the Church, #41, 2003)

So by your carefully worded post, and the words of the Catholic church itself you are in effect saying that the salvation of a Catholic believer can be lost because they do not attend Mass. That means there is NO SECURITY OF THE BELIEVER AT ALL!!!!!

That being the case, and it is what you said, and what the RCC said, then why would anyone want to be a Catholic believer.

I am a Southern Baptist and we encourage all members to attend church.
BUT......If I did not attend church one Sunday for any reason, lets just say I worked too hard on Sat. and did not want to go, I would be dadgummed if I would be a Southern Baptist.

That is unacceptable on several levels.

#1. Salvation has nothing to do with church attendance whatsoever.

#2. It places our salvation in our own hands because we are REQUIRED to do something and that is completely non Biblical.

#3. It is legalistic.

 

[Albion]

I did not link to an apologetic aimed at Fundamentalist teaching. You did and without identifying the context.

Very well, I was referring to the view you several times used as a counterpoint to your own church's policies. You described it here--

Perhaps this context will help those who are reading this thread to understand what was being argued against. The article's main premise was this.

"All they have to do is “accept Christ as their personal Savior,” and it’s done. They might well live exemplary lives thereafter, but living well is not crucial and does not affect their salvation. But is this true? Does the Bible support this concept?

I recognize that characterization as applying to churches of the "Fundy" sort, but if you prefer a different word, nothing else would be changed. And I recognize this as something of a red herring, since none of us here were advocating for that POV.

You are the one that is trying to take an apologetic website and use it as Catholic teaching. I referenced the Catechism, which is actual Catholic teaching.

And so did the material that I gave you.

You wanted something concrete and I gave it to you, straight from Catholic sources, with references. So that ends the matter.

So mortal sin is not the Church condemning the individual to hell. That is the child's view to avoid responsibility for their actions. Mortal sin can (and I emphasize can because we cannot know the mind of God) place us in a state of peril where if we die before confession, we separate ourselves from him by our own free choice.

Meaning just what Major1 and I both had been telling you before.

 

[tz620q]

So by your carefully worded post, and the words of the Catholic church itself you are in effect saying that the salvation of a Catholic believer can be lost because they do not attend Mass. That means there is NO SECURITY OF THE BELIEVER AT ALL!!!!!

I am a Southern Baptist and we encourage all members to attend church.
BUT......If I did not attend church one Sunday for any reason, lets just say I worked too hard on Sat. and did not want to go, I would be dadgummed if I would be a Southern Baptist.

That is unacceptable on several levels.

#1. Salvation has nothing to do with church attendance whatsoever.

#2. It places our salvation in our own hands because we are REQUIRED to do something and that is completely non Biblical.

#3. It is legalistic.

From the Baptist Confession of Faith 1689
Paragraph 6. Neither prayer nor any other part of religious worship, is now under the gospel, tied unto, or made more acceptable by any place in which it is performed, or towards which it is directed; but God is to be worshipped everywhere in spirit and in truth; as in private families daily, and in secret each one by himself; so more solemnly in the public assemblies, which are not carelessly nor wilfully to be neglected or forsaken, when God by his word or providence calls thereunto.

Paragraph 7. As it is the law of nature, that in general a proportion of time, by God’s appointment, be set apart for the worship of God, so by his Word, in a positive moral, and perpetual commandment, binding all men, in all ages, he has particularly appointed one day in seven for a sabbath to be kept holy unto him, which from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ was the last day of the week, and from the resurrection of Christ was changed into the first day of the week, which is called the Lord’s Day: and is to be continued to the end of the world as the Christian Sabbath, the observation of the last day of the week being abolished.

It seems that the Baptist Confession does not try to minimize the need for worship and the source for that requirement that is put upon us by God, not man. It seems that you and Albion get hung up in the use of mortal sin when Catholics say this same thing. Perhaps you see this as being a requirement placed upon you as a child by a dictatorial church. I don't know your motivation. So what if man violates the law of God and refuses to worship him? Would you see this willful disobedience as being righteous and holy. If it is not holy, then why would you minimize it's affect. Please clarify for me what you feel this affect is within the Baptist system of beliefs.

 

[Concord1968]

From the Baptist Confession of Faith 1689
Paragraph 6. Neither prayer nor any other part of religious worship, is now under the gospel, tied unto, or made more acceptable by any place in which it is performed, or towards which it is directed; but God is to be worshipped everywhere in spirit and in truth; as in private families daily, and in secret each one by himself; so more solemnly in the public assemblies, which are not carelessly nor wilfully to be neglected or forsaken, when God by his word or providence calls thereunto.

Paragraph 7. As it is the law of nature, that in general a proportion of time, by God’s appointment, be set apart for the worship of God, so by his Word, in a positive moral, and perpetual commandment, binding all men, in all ages, he has particularly appointed one day in seven for a sabbath to be kept holy unto him, which from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ was the last day of the week, and from the resurrection of Christ was changed into the first day of the week, which is called the Lord’s Day: and is to be continued to the end of the world as the Christian Sabbath, the observation of the last day of the week being abolished.

It seems that the Baptist Confession does not try to minimize the need for worship and the source for that requirement that is put upon us by God, not man. It seems that you and Albion get hung up in the use of mortal sin when Catholics say this same thing. Perhaps you see this as being a requirement placed upon you as a child by a dictatorial church. I don't know your motivation. So what if man violates the law of God and refuses to worship him? Would you see this willful disobedience as being righteous and holy. If it is not holy, then why would you minimize it's affect. Please clarify for me what you feel this affect is within the Baptist system of beliefs.

The 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith is a Calvinist Baptist document. Not all Baptists are Calvinists.

 

[tz620q]

Meaning just what Major1 and I both had been telling you before.

I think we need to dial down the rhetoric. I reread the thread and have been probably more at fault than you in reading ire into disagreement. I am sorry for this. This thread started with an explanation by a holy man, Fulton Sheen, about the Catholic Mass and we let others pull it into an argument about mortal sin and loss of salvation even when we both agree that one can lose ones salvation by willful disobedience. Perhaps we should acknowledge that I am happy to be Catholic and to have the privilege, not duty, to worship God every Sunday and that you are Anglican and feel similarly about Sunday worship but disagree on the severity of the Catholic concept of mortal sin for missing Mass. It seems we have a lot in common and the Catholic penalty only applies to me and I will happily accept it.