The Catholic Mass explained

[URA]

“... let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe.” (Hebrews 12)

“Make a joyful noise to God, all the earth; sing the glory of his name; give to him glorious praise!” (Psalm 66)

“How blessed the people... who walk, O LORD, in the light of your face.” (Psalm 89)​

This is a video I just watched for my Church Liturgy class; it's from the late great Catholic bishop, Fulton J. Sheen. It's about a half hour, but he makes a very interesting description of the Mass, comparing it to a drama. He'll occasionally reference the young people in the audience, and because he's describing the Mass for children, it's easy to understand the ways he describes the 3 parts of the drama of the Mass.

I also found a great side-by-side comparison of what's said in the Mass & related Bible verses; it's really quite interesting. I've heard that Catholic learn a lot of Scripture just by going to Mass (not even counting the readings!), and seeing it all listed like this is amazing.

https://www.companionscross.org/sites/default/files/The Mass in Scripture.pdf

May God bless us all with good worship & good discussion!

 

[Lost4words]

Thank you for sharing. Bishop Fulton Sheen was very humorous as well as very pious and full of Saintly knowledge.

 

[Albion]

What's the issue on this thread?

 

[concretecamper]

Lex orandi, lex credendi

Unfortunately, some Catholics dont follow this motto.

 

[Crosstian]

Is the wine of the "Mass", intoxicating or non-intoxicating?

Is the "sacrifice" of the "Mass" alive or dead when eaten?

 

[Lost4words]

Is the wine of the "Mass", intoxicating or non-intoxicating?

Is the "sacrifice" of the "Mass" alive or dead when eaten?

Intoxicating if you drank a whole bottle. Thing is, its not wine after the consecration and one is only allowed a tiny sip.

Jesus does not suffer again and again at each mass. The mass is in 'remembrance' of Our Lords suffering. The Host is indeed alive as it becomes the Body of Christ.

 

[Crosstian]

Intoxicating if you drank a whole bottle. Thing is, its not wine after the consecration and one is only allowed a tiny sip.

Jesus does not suffer again and again at each mass. The mass is in 'remembrance' of Our Lords suffering. The Host is indeed alive as it becomes the Body of Christ.

So the wine is "intoxicating".

Frank J Sheed agrees with you:

"The "Transubstantiation" of the "Eucharist":

" ... when the priest consecrates bread and wine, so that they become Christ's body and Christ's blood. ...

... But in these two instances, the bread and wine of the Eucharist, the mind is not left to itself. By the revelation of Christ it knows that the substance has been changed, in the one case into the substance of his body, in the other into the substance of his blood. ...

... The accidents remain in their totality-for example, that which was wine and is now Christ's blood still has the smell of wine, the intoxicating power of wine. ...

... All we shall say here is that his body is wholly present ... " [EWTN online; Frank J. Sheed; Taken from Theology for Beginners © 1981 by Frank J. Sheed, Chapter 18.] - http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/eucha4.htm

You are saying then, that the host was (past tense) alive, but when the "sacrifice" is re-presented, it becomes dead, yes?

 

[tz620q]

You are saying then, that the host was (past tense) alive, but when the "sacrifice" is re-presented, it becomes dead, yes?

I'll take a crack at this off the top of my head (probably a bad idea, since Eucharistic explanations often fall short). First, when you say the host used to be alive, do you mean that the wine used to be grapes and the host used to be wheat? If so, then the wine and bread are obviously dead before the consecration; but were alive at one time. But I think you are pointing to the Eucharist as a resurrection event. I have never heard a Catholic explain it that way. We, instead, see the consecration as an Incarnational event, where Jesus, through the Holy Spirit, makes himself truly present within the host, not as a dead human body on the cross, which was a temporal event that did not last; but as a glorified resurrected Jesus. Jesus becomes our pure sacrifice for our sins, not just by an event that happened nearly 2000 years ago; but by making himself truly present for us today, tomorrow, and always. This incarnation changes the bread and wine. It becomes something else, something more than it was before. There are a lot of explanations for what this something is; but most people who believe in a real presence acknowledge that some change has occurred.

 

[Major1]

“... let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe.” (Hebrews 12)

“Make a joyful noise to God, all the earth; sing the glory of his name; give to him glorious praise!” (Psalm 66)

“How blessed the people... who walk, O LORD, in the light of your face.” (Psalm 89)​

This is a video I just watched for my Church Liturgy class; it's from the late great Catholic bishop, Fulton J. Sheen. It's about a half hour, but he makes a very interesting description of the Mass, comparing it to a drama. He'll occasionally reference the young people in the audience, and because he's describing the Mass for children, it's easy to understand the ways he describes the 3 parts of the drama of the Mass.

I also found a great side-by-side comparison of what's said in the Mass & related Bible verses; it's really quite interesting. I've heard that Catholic learn a lot of Scripture just by going to Mass (not even counting the readings!), and seeing it all listed like this is amazing.

https://www.companionscross.org/sites/default/files/The Mass in Scripture.pdf

May God bless us all with good worship & good discussion!

The Catholic church teaches that missing Mass is a mortal sin.

Is that found in the Bible somewhere?

Ephesians 2:8-9...…...
"We are saved by grace through faith and not of yourselves least you would boast".

So according to the Scriptures, attending a church service has nothing to do with salvation and if we MUST attend a Mass service isn't that US DOING SOMETHING TO BE SAVED?

 

[Albion]

Is the wine of the "Mass", intoxicating or non-intoxicating?

It would be intoxicating if you drank a few glasses of it, but you barely wet your lips at Communion.

Is the "sacrifice" of the "Mass" alive or dead when eaten?

It's called an unbloody sacrifice. The concept is of a sacrifice, but there isn't a new victim.

 

[Major1]

It would be intoxicating if you drank a few glasses of it, but you barely wet your lips at Communion.


It's called an unbloody sacrifice. The concept is of a sacrifice, but there isn't a new victim.

Now.....what happens to the sacramental wine that is poured to be served but is left over?

 

[tz620q]

The Catholic church teaches that missing Mass is a mortal sin.

Is that found in the Bible somewhere?

Ephesians 2:8-9...…...
"We are saved by grace through faith and not of yourselves least you would boast".

So according to the Scriptures, attending a church service has nothing to do with salvation and if we MUST attend a Mass service isn't that US DOING SOMETHING TO BE SAVED?

Would you say that sin has no effect on salvation? Please explain how you view soteriology.

 

[Albion]

Now.....what happens to the sacramental wine that is poured to be served but is left over?

The clergy are directed to consume it. There rarely is much left over that must be consumed, however.

 

[Major1]

Would you say that sin has no effect on salvation? Please explain how you view soteriology.

Excellent question. I can only give you the Bibles explanation and it is the one I know about.

Does sin have an effect on salvation?

The only sin I know of that has an effect on salvation is the sin of "UNBELIEF".

1 John 1:7-9...……..
“If we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness”.

Because we never eliminate the old sin nature, it’s a day-by-day, moment-by-moment process.

SORTERIOLOGY.

Simply said it is the study on the doctrine of salvation.

How do I view it? I view it just as the Bible explains it my friend.

We are saved from the penalty of sin which is death by faith in the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ. His death, and resurrection paid for the sins of all men but to be saved those same men must come to Christ by faith and accept Him as their Saviour.

Once that happens, we are saved eternally or as some say, "Once saved always saved".
Since we can do nothing by works to be saved, we can then do nothing to be lost. We can not loose something we did nothing to obtain.

Then, do I have to do anything to be saved????………….NO!
Ephesians 2:8-9...……...
"We are save by GRACE THROUGH FAITH AND NOT OF OURSELVES, least any man would boast".

Romans 10:9-10......….
" That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."

Acts 16:30-31......……..
"And they asked them, what must I do to be saved. And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Good works are the by product of actually being saved. When are saved, THEN we will want to do good works out of love for what Jesus has done for us.

Must we be baptized in water to be saved...…...NO!

Water baptism is a step in obedience.

Baptism is important and should be done as soon as possible, there is NO saving power in water or the act itself. To believe that WATER is need to be saved literally makes water stronger than the BLOOD of God to save us.

IF water baptism is required for salvation then the idea of last rites and death bed confessions do not exist and neither would the men who died in war after accepting Christ and then being killed in combat.

Then we come to REPENTANCE.

The Bible says that repentance is when we change our mind about Christ and we turn to God to be saved.

Acts 3:9...…...
"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the LORD."

Repentance is the result of real faith toward Christ. We do not have to give up anything to be saved, but when we are born again, the Holy Spirit of God in us will then empower us to give up those things we do not need or are harmful to us.

All this mean that we are BORN AGAIN.

John 3:1-8 is very clear...…..
"There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

For any person to go to heave, they must be born again. That is the spiritual act from God to man where eternal life is given to the man who confesses Christ as their Saviour.

The question you asked is the one question which speperates Christianity from religion and cults.

Titus 3:5-8 sums up Soteriology perfectly...........
"He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of His mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by His grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life."

Salvation then is by GRACE alone as stated in Ephesians 2:8-9.
Salvation then is by FAITH alone as stated in Ephesians 2:8-9.
Salvation then is by CHRIST alone as stated in John 14:6.
Salvation then is by BEING BORN AGAIN as stated in John 3:8.

I hope that answer your question and helps your understanding.

 

[Major1]

The clergy are directed to consume it. There rarely is much left over that must be consumed, however.

I knew that. Just wanted everyone else to know and then wonder about that word, intoxication?

 

[Albion]

I knew that. Just wanted everyone else to know and then wonder about that word, intoxication?

Okay, but intoxication is not a genuine consequence for either the celebrant or the communicants. The amount the communicant takes in is miniscule and the priest is careful not to prepare more than the amount needed. If he undercounts, he can consecrate more of it during the distribution, so the likelihood of him having to consume much after the distribution is over is slim.

 

[tz620q]

Then, do I have to do anything to be saved????………….NO!
Ephesians 2:8-9...……...
"We are save by GRACE THROUGH FAITH AND NOT OF OURSELVES, least any man would boast".

Thank you for the robust explanation. Obviously, there are a few things that we disagree on; but I would like to talk about Ephesians 2:8-9 a bit. Here is the first part of the chapter Ephesians 2:1-11

"As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.
All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.
But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

This chapter seems to emphasize God's grace and the salvific power it contains, a saving power that makes us alive with Christ and raises us up to seat us in the heavenly realm. So there seems to be saints in the heavenly realm. Faith is only mentioned once and then, to me, it seems to be speaking about God's faith in us or maybe God's faith instilled in us; but not a subjective faith that we achieve on our own, lest we boast. This verse is often paired with Romans 10:9-10, as you have done to seem to point to a confessional faith that saves through the speaking of a confession; but here is Romans 10:5-15

Moses writes this about the righteousness that is by the law: “The person who does these things will live by them. ”But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) “or ‘Who will descend into the deep?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).
But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”

So if we refuse to listen to those sent by God to preach the good news to us (like not attending Mass), are we not ignoring the Grace that God showers upon us and so choosing to turn away from God and back towards the world?

 

[Major1]

Thank you for the robust explanation. Obviously, there are a few things that we disagree on; but I would like to talk about Ephesians 2:8-9 a bit. Here is the first part of the chapter Ephesians 2:1-11

"As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.
All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.
But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

This chapter seems to emphasize God's grace and the salvific power it contains, a saving power that makes us alive with Christ and raises us up to seat us in the heavenly realm. So there seems to be saints in the heavenly realm. Faith is only mentioned once and then, to me, it seems to be speaking about God's faith in us or maybe God's faith instilled in us; but not a subjective faith that we achieve on our own, lest we boast. This verse is often paired with Romans 10:9-10, as you have done to seem to point to a confessional faith that saves through the speaking of a confession; but here is Romans 10:5-15

Moses writes this about the righteousness that is by the law: “The person who does these things will live by them. ”But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) “or ‘Who will descend into the deep?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).
But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”

So if we refuse to listen to those sent by God to preach the good news to us (like not attending Mass), are we not ignoring the Grace that God showers upon us and so choosing to turn away from God and back towards the world?

Yes, there are saints in heaven. The souls of all believers are now in heaven because of their faith.

I do not agree with your thesis of "faith being God's faith is us."

That is not what is in view in that Scripture.

Since the context is as you listed "salvation", then
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves" can not be God's faith in us.

The saving faith we have is a gift from God.
Romans 12:3 says....

"For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned".

The Bible emphasizes that faith is a gift because God deserves all of the glory for our salvation. If the receiver of faith could do anything whatsoever to deserve or earn the gift, that person would have every right to boast.

Now then, by the way you have worded your question, you are trying to rationalize your RCC position of works keep you saved. Or at least it seems to be that way.

The original question was...…….

"The Catholic church teaches that missing Mass is a mortal sin.
Is that found in the Bible somewhere?"

Ephesians 2:8-9...…...
"We are saved by grace through faith and not of yourselves least you would boast".

So according to the Scriptures, attending a church service has nothing to do with salvation and if we MUST attend a Mass service isn't that US DOING SOMETHING TO BE SAVED? "

The RCC doctrine is that it is a mortal sin to miss mass. Isn't that correct?

You said……...
"So if we refuse to listen to those sent by God to preach the good news to us (like not attending Mass), are we not ignoring the Grace that God showers upon us and so choosing to turn away from God and back towards the world".

So what happens to a Catholic who misses Mass and dies in MORTAL SIN?

Then you would have to then attend church services to be saved. That is doing something for salvation and has nothing to do with listening to anyone as you suggested.

The root is...…….."Do you have to attend Mass to be saved".

If so then that is salvation by works no matter how it is worded or thought out or rationalized.

 

[tz620q]

I do not agree with your thesis of "faith being God's faith is us."

That is not what is in view in that Scripture.

Since the context is as you listed "salvation", then
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves" can not be God's faith in us.

The saving faith we have is a gift from God.
Romans 12:3 says....

"For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned".

The Bible emphasizes that faith is a gift because God deserves all of the glory for our salvation. If the receiver of faith could do anything whatsoever to deserve or earn the gift, that person would have every right to boast.

All of these quotes, though, seem to point to a faith that is born outside of our intellect and manifest within us as a gift from God. So if we see belief as our intellectual arrival at a certain theological construct, we tend to see this as a subjective faith that we achieve through our superior intellect and discernment. It is not because God exists and demands belief but that God works within us to create this faith. None of it is an ex nihilo work. I envision a screw that does not know it's purpose until someone screws it into a threaded piece of metal. Then it becomes a fastener within a much larger framework. God has made us for this faith and hopefully we see our purpose sometime during our life and how we fit into the whole framework. But we cannot suborn God's gift by saying that we screwed ourselves into his plan.

Now then, by the way you have worded your question, you are trying to rationalize your RCC position of works keep you saved. Or at least it seems to be that way.

The original question was...…….

"The Catholic church teaches that missing Mass is a mortal sin.
Is that found in the Bible somewhere?"

Ephesians 2:8-9...…...
"We are saved by grace through faith and not of yourselves least you would boast".

So according to the Scriptures, attending a church service has nothing to do with salvation and if we MUST attend a Mass service isn't that US DOING SOMETHING TO BE SAVED? "

The RCC doctrine is that it is a mortal sin to miss mass. Isn't that correct?

You said……...
"So if we refuse to listen to those sent by God to preach the good news to us (like not attending Mass), are we not ignoring the Grace that God showers upon us and so choosing to turn away from God and back towards the world".

So what happens to a Catholic who misses Mass and dies in MORTAL SIN?

Then you would have to then attend church services to be saved. That is doing something for salvation and has nothing to do with listening to anyone as you suggested.

The root is...…….."Do you have to attend Mass to be saved".

If so then that is salvation by works no matter how it is worded or thought out or rationalized.

To a Catholic, we see salvation as a decision left to God and not to man's intellect. We would not be so presumptuous as to say we are saved or guaranteed to be saved. To us that is boasting in our faith and that smacks of pride.
A good example of this is found in Matthew 16:17-18. Jesus answers Peter's confession of who He is by pointing to the true source of this revelation. It is not Peter's faith; but God's revelation to Peter. Shortly after that Peter, in shock at the coming crucifixion, tries to change Christ's mind about this. Christ rightly sees this as pride in trying to tempt Christ away from God's plan and says, "Get behind me, Satan."
So missing mass isn't about being saved or not. That is your framework, not ours. We would view a person who misses Mass without certain extenuating circumstances as willfully disobeying God's commandment to worship him weekly. This does not mean the person goes from being saved to not being saved; but shows a deficiency in the person's spiritual life that needs guidance.

 

[Major1]

All of these quotes, though, seem to point to a faith that is born outside of our intellect and manifest within us as a gift from God. So if we see belief as our intellectual arrival at a certain theological construct, we tend to see this as a subjective faith that we achieve through our superior intellect and discernment. It is not because God exists and demands belief but that God works within us to create this faith. None of it is an ex nihilo work. I envision a screw that does not know it's purpose until someone screws it into a threaded piece of metal. Then it becomes a fastener within a much larger framework. God has made us for this faith and hopefully we see our purpose sometime during our life and how we fit into the whole framework. But we cannot suborn God's gift by saying that we screwed ourselves into his plan.


To a Catholic, we see salvation as a decision left to God and not to man's intellect. We would not be so presumptuous as to say we are saved or guaranteed to be saved. To us that is boasting in our faith and that smacks of pride.
A good example of this is found in Matthew 16:17-18. Jesus answers Peter's confession of who He is by pointing to the true source of this revelation. It is not Peter's faith; but God's revelation to Peter. Shortly after that Peter, in shock at the coming crucifixion, tries to change Christ's mind about this. Christ rightly sees this as pride in trying to tempt Christ away from God's plan and says, "Get behind me, Satan."
So missing mass isn't about being saved or not. That is your framework, not ours. We would view a person who misses Mass without certain extenuating circumstances as willfully disobeying God's commandment to worship him weekly. This does not mean the person goes from being saved to not being saved; but shows a deficiency in the person's spiritual life that needs guidance.

I understand your point. Thank you for being civil in your comments.

You said...………….
"So missing mass isn't about being saved or not. That is your framework, not ours."

I actually said in Post #9 ........
"The Catholic church teaches that missing Mass is a mortal sin."

So then we see that it was actually YOUR framework and not mine. I just said that it is taught by the RCC that missing Mass is a mortal sin.

Now I did not say anything about salvation at that point. I did go on to say that Church attendance according to the Scriptures IS NOT a requirement of salvation.

Now you just said that...……..
"This does not mean the person goes from being saved to not being saved; but shows a deficiency in the person's spiritual life that needs guidance".

I AGREE! You have just agreed with my original comment that "Church attendance has nothing to do with salvation"!!!!!

To say that church attendance makes us a Christian is the same as saying that if we stand in a garage we are then a car.

The only sin that dams a mans soul to hell is UNBELIEF.
Praise the Lord !!!!