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The Cambrian problem

pat34lee

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Sure there it. There is gravity. You do realize that gravity is what causes the air pressure that you are feeling right now, don't you? All that is causing the air pressure that you are experiencing is gravity. Nothing else is stopping the air in the atmosphere from leaving the Earth.

Difference. There is a solid earth with a dense core and high gravity holding
this atmosphere in place. Gas alone is too amorphous and has nowhere near
the mass required to hold together, much less compress.


You don't seem to realize that there is no intrinsic in the expansion caused by the Big Bang. The atoms are not traveling at "near light speed". It is obvious that you have no understanding of this topic. When that is the case the wise thing to do is to ask questions and not make obviously wrong statements.

That is why memory is a dangerous thing to rely on. I'll accept being wrong on the
speed, even though this is theoretical still. The following person did the math and
got more like 7-8k m/s if you look at the graph.
http://physics.stackexchange.com/qu...when-they-were-first-formed-in-the-early-univ

It isn't quite near light speed of just under 300k m/s, but it is a problem for gravity
to cause single atoms travelling apart from one another at those speeds to clump together.
 
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Hoghead1

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An interesting twist here, Ecco, on Genesis and humans not able to comprehend nature is found in the major teaching of the Protestant Reformers. What to do about the fact that science was beginning to show that the geophysics of Scripture were inaccurate? Calvin argued that both the Bible and science were correct. Calvin stressed that God did not write Scripture to teach us astronomy. People back then were too dense to understand science, the real truth about geophysics. So, as he had to do in many other instances, God had to accommodate his message to our feeble intellects, talk "baby talk" to us. If Calvin were round today, he would say the Bible is inerrant and the evolution is true. The Genesis account is simply God taking baby talk to us, because people back the would have been totally unable to get their minds around our modern scientific understandings of the universe.
 
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pat34lee

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I hold that creation ex nihilo is a nonsensical idea, on that is not supported at all by the Genesis account. I do not see what this has to do with the Big Bang. The BB did not come out of nothing, but of all matter and space squeezed down into the point of singularity. Hardly then, is this point a nothing. Also, you say that life can come only from like life. What is your scientific evidence here? How do you explain the biblical account of Adam as being formed out of dust,not our of nothing or out of a like life form? Also, where is your scientific evidence that what you say about the age of the universe is necessarily true? how come science is all wring and you ended being right, being so much the more knowledgeable than all these brainy scientists, you lucky one, you?

You just put off the beginning by saying there was something before the BB.
Where did the speck come from? How did all time, space and matter compress
into an infinitessimal dot against all natural laws?

There are no infinites in nature. No infinite past, no infinite future, no infinite
number, etc. There are only theoretical infinites. So, back to the two questions
in the first paragraph.

Science is not wrong. It is just the wrong instrument for the job, like trying to tell
time using a ruler. The beginning of space and time is outside the realm of science.
It is more the realm of religion and philosophy.
 
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pat34lee

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An interesting twist here, Ecco, on Genesis and humans not able to comprehend nature is found in the major teaching of the Protestant Reformers. What to do about the fact that science was beginning to show that the geophysics of Scripture were inaccurate? Calvin argued that both the Bible and science were correct. Calvin stressed that God did not write Scripture to teach us astronomy. People back then were too dense to understand science, the real truth about geophysics. So, as he had to do in many other instances, God had to accommodate his message to our feeble intellects, talk "baby talk" to us. If Calvin were round today, he would say the Bible is inerrant and the evolution is true. The Genesis account is simply God taking baby talk to us, because people back the would have been totally unable to get their minds around our modern scientific understandings of the universe.

The following video is pretty long, but I strongly suggest watching it all. I think the
last 10 minutes or so is blank. Evolution theory did not begin with Darwin, or even
scientists. It is a pagan belief as old as the bible. The only difference today is that
few will admit that evolution is philosophy and religion, not science.

 
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Hoghead1

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Yes, quite right, such matters are beyond science. Any BB scientist I have heard will say that science really has no answer as to what was before the BB, that this is a matter for philosophy. What I, as a theologian, believe, is that God is eternally creative. Hence, there has always been some kind of universe. Before this one, there was a different one, and so on, ad infinitum. Hence, the material that was compressed down. What is your case that nature hates infinitesimals? My only concern is that I simply do not believe in entities which have no dimensions, no height, width, or length. That was the traditional definition of the immaterial. I hold such a description is equivalent to saying that entity does not exist.
 
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Hoghead1

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I am well aware that the notion of evolution goes way back into pagan times. I
am also aware that it goes way back in Christianity, to the writings of the
Christian mystical tradition. I am also aware that the notion of a God-man goes
way back into Pagan times and also miraculous healing, etc. Does this invalidate
Christ? No. Then why should such a line of arguing invalidate any other
concept, evolution included? And when you say there is no scientific evidence for
evolution,
just where is the scientific evidence for your apparently creationist approach?
And, having earned a M.S. in a major scientific field, seeing the world of
science and evolutionarily thinking from the inside, I know for a fact there is more than enough
solid evidence for evolution. So, from what you have just said, I don't
think it would be anything but a total waste of time to look at that
film. Also, whatever film is recommended here or shown here for whatever
reason should be banned form this site. It simply clogs up communication.
Also, I don't like being brushed off. If you want to make a claim, then
you yourself should defend it and not blow the reader off to go somewhere
else to look.
 
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Subduction Zone

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That is why memory is a dangerous thing to rely on. I'll accept being wrong on the
speed, even though this is theoretical still. The following person did the math and
got more like 7-8k m/s if you look at the graph.
http://physics.stackexchange.com/qu...when-they-were-first-formed-in-the-early-univ

It isn't quite near light speed of just under 300k m/s, but it is a problem for gravity
to cause single atoms travelling apart from one another at those speeds to clump together.
No, not really. This is a statistical sample. Those particles would be flying in all directions and would still not escape gravity. That is a very poor example that you referred to. Since you clearly don't understand why don't you politely ask Essential Saltes. He is a physicist and should be able to explain it to you. You do realize that all it takes to over come that velocity is enough gas so that that velocity is below the escape velocity of that mass.
 
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ecco

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An interesting twist here, Ecco, on Genesis and humans not able to comprehend nature is found in the major teaching of the Protestant Reformers. What to do about the fact that science was beginning to show that the geophysics of Scripture were inaccurate? Calvin argued that both the Bible and science were correct. Calvin stressed that God did not write Scripture to teach us astronomy. People back then were too dense to understand science, the real truth about geophysics. So, as he had to do in many other instances, God had to accommodate his message to our feeble intellects, talk "baby talk" to us. If Calvin were round today, he would say the Bible is inerrant and the evolution is true. The Genesis account is simply God taking baby talk to us, because people back the would have been totally unable to get their minds around our modern scientific understandings of the universe.

An interesting twist here, Hoghead1, on Genesis and humans not able to comprehend nature is found in the major teaching of the Protestant Reformers. What to do about the fact that science was beginning to show that the geophysics of Scripture were inaccurate? I would argue that both the Bible (in a sense) and science were correct. I would stress that God did not write Scripture to teach us astronomy, I would stress that man wrote scripture. People back then were too dense to understand science, the real truth about geophysics. So, as man had to do in many other instances, man had to accommodate his message to mankind's feeble intellects, talk "baby talk" to us. If I were round today, I would say the Bible was just one of thousands of creation stories and the evolution is true. The Genesis account is simply man talking baby talk to mankind, because people back the would have been totally unable to get their minds around our modern scientific understandings of the universe.

No offense to our ancestors. They were doing the best they could with the information they had. Conversely, there is no excuse for people today to rely on ancient beliefs and disregard science.
 
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ecco

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The following video is pretty long, but I strongly suggest watching it all. I think the
last 10 minutes or so is blank. Evolution theory did not begin with Darwin, or even
scientists. It is a pagan belief as old as the bible. The only difference today is that
few will admit that evolution is philosophy and religion, not science.

Yes! One hour and eight minutes is "pretty long". Why don't you provide a synopsis, in your own words?

What is evolution? It is the story of where we came from. All creation stories attempt to address that question. The ancient Hebrews did it. The ancient Egyptians did it. The Africans did it. The Australian Aborigines did it. The Native Americans did it. All these are different and are based on the knowledge of the times.

The difference between these old stories and the modern "theory of evolution" is a few thousand years of scientific progress.
 
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ecco

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...My only concern is that I simply do not believe in entities which have no dimensions, no height, width, or length. ... I hold such a description is equivalent to saying that entity does not exist.
And yet you believe in a god.
 
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In situ

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Again, you use language stating certainty when there is only theory.

Young Stars
Young Star Clusters

There is no proof of either.

"Certainly there are degrees of certainty, and one should be very careful to emphasize that fact, because otherwise one is landed in an utter skepticism, and complete skepticism would, of course, be totally barren and completely useless."
-- Bertrand Russel
 
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In situ

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Evolution theory did not begin with Darwin, or even scientists.

This is called confirmation bias. People make all kind of claims all the time. So the question is, why do you single out this claim as special out of all claims that has been made in history by human kind?

You see, anyone can claim anything, the difference is if you have evidence or not to support your claim with - Darwin had that, the others did not. What is important is not what you say, but why you say it. This is why Darwin is credited and others not.
 
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In situ

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There are no infinites in nature. No infinite past, no infinite future, no infinite number, etc.

The universe is not obligated to follow what you believe nature ought to follow. For instance one could make an argue from quantum field theory that there are infinities in nature and that they are necessary for the very existence of things.

There are only theoretical

In a scientific theory "theoretical" means "supported by evidence".
 
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pat34lee

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Yes, quite right, such matters are beyond science. Any BB scientist I have heard will say that science really has no answer as to what was before the BB, that this is a matter for philosophy. What I, as a theologian, believe, is that God is eternally creative. Hence, there has always been some kind of universe. Before this one, there was a different one, and so on, ad infinitum. Hence, the material that was compressed down. What is your case that nature hates infinitesimals? My only concern is that I simply do not believe in entities which have no dimensions, no height, width, or length. That was the traditional definition of the immaterial. I hold such a description is equivalent to saying that entity does not exist.

In math, you can theorize infinites, but in reality, there are none.
If there were an infinite past, we could never reach the present,
because there would be more days and years still, not matter how
much time passed. The same goes for future, length or any measure.
There cannot be an infinitely large number, because you can always
add more to it, theoretically. In reality, numbers of anything are finite,
even if they can be unimaginably large. (or small)

https://plus.maths.org/content/does-infinity-exist
 
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pat34lee

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The universe is not obligated to follow what you believe nature ought to follow. For instance one could make an argue from quantum field theory that there are infinities in nature and that they are necessary for the very existence of things.

That is like adding fairy dust. You can make anything possible then.

In a scientific theory "theoretical" means "supported by evidence".

The evidence does not support theories. The theories either explain the
evidence or they do not. That means any good storyteller can theorize
anything, as long as it does not run counter to the facts. This is why a
good mystery novel or puzzle can throw you off.
 
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In situ

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The evidence does not support theories. The theories either explain the evidence or they do not.

Evidence either support or refute a claim. Saying that "the theory explains evidence" is the same things as saying "evidence support the theory" or the "claims made by the theory is supported by evidence".

The point is, creationist always try to render the meaning with words meaning less by letting them mean everything. Theory = story telling, and if the Bible then tells a story then it follows that the Bible is just as valid story telling as a scientific theory, the Bible can even then be said to be supported by science, and other nonsense like that

That means any good storyteller can theorize anything, as long as it does not run counter to the facts. This is why a good mystery novel or puzzle can throw you off.

Incorrect. A claim supported by evidence is not story telling. It is only story telling when you do not have supporting evidence. I.e. it means that you do not understand what is meant with evidence since you believe a claim based on evidence is story telling, which it isn't.

What you are trying to say, but did not say is that "facts can be interpreted", i.e. it implies that any kind of story telling is valid about facts, in particular the story telling of the Genesis, which is not true.

Secondly, a theory needs to comply with all the facts - you are entitled to your opinion but you are not entitled to your own facts! One would thing it would be needless to say, but it isn't, the theory of evolution is supported by all the facts, the myths in the bible is not.

This is why a good mystery novel or puzzle can throw you off.

I do not see how that can be - unless you exposed to new facts - if you have the facts, how can it then "throw you off"? At most you can look at it from another, perhaps more interesting, angel but to "throw you off" seams to be an exaggeration.

Otherwise it is a very clever way to through in the "interpret the fact" fallacy in this.
 
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If you gonna quote me, then make sure it does not look like I have written: "That is like adding fairy dust. You can make anything possible then.", which I did not. Please edit you post so this it is clear it is your comment and not mine.

I any case, to respond to what you claimed. No, it isn't like "adding fairy dust". It is about correlating the math in a theory to reality and if the math deals with infinities in such way that they are needed in order for the theory to work (which is the case in quantum field theory) then you can make an argument about it.

Like I said, the universe is not obligated to behave in a certain way that you believe it ought to behave in.
 
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In situ

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The difference between these old stories and the modern "theory of evolution" is a few thousand years of scientific progress.

Except for that science just been around for a few hundred years. In that very same short time of human history we have had a progress unlike anything else. If religions are dealing with the truth one may wonder why this progress never happen until science made its entrance on the scene of intellectual thoughts...
 
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