• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

The book of Tobit is fiction?

Status
Not open for further replies.

ToxicReboMan

Always Hungry for Truth
May 19, 2005
1,040
84
42
Texas
✟1,619.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Single
[12] He replied, "I am Azarias the son of the great Ananias, one of your relatives."


Isn't this against the commandment thou shalt not lie? Done by an Arch Angel, no less? I have always wondered about this situation and haven't really heard a good answer for it yet. What does this mean? It gives me pause.

The commandment says do not testify falsely against your neighbor. So by that wording the Angel did not break the commandment. I do remember some instances of important figures lying in the Bible at the top of my head. For example, Abraham lied to the Egyptians and told them that his beautiful wife Sarah was his sister so they would not kill him to get to her. Jacob lied to his blind father Isaac so that he could receive the blessing reserved for his older brother Esau. Jesus lied to the guy that was going...wait that's a lie.
 
Upvote 0

DD2008

Well-Known Member
Oct 3, 2008
5,033
574
Texas
✟8,121.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
The commandment says do not testify falsely against your neighbor. So by that wording the Angel did not break the commandment. I do remember some instances of important figures lying in the Bible at the top of my head. For example, Abraham lied to the Egyptians and told them that his beautiful wife Sarah was his sister so they would not kill him to get to her. Jacob lied to his blind father Isaac so that he could receive the blessing reserved for his older brother Esau. Jesus lied to the guy that was going...wait that's a lie.


One commentary I read said that Raphael wasn't lying because he took on the form of the person he said he was. Another said he wasn't lying because the name means something about God's mercy that can be taken as true about the Angel.

While reading it does give pause like the other passages you mentioned.

I guess I can understand how he's not lying if there was a truth about the thing he said.
 
Upvote 0

ToxicReboMan

Always Hungry for Truth
May 19, 2005
1,040
84
42
Texas
✟1,619.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Single
One commentary I read said that Raphael wasn't lying because he took on the form of the person he said he was. Another said he wasn't lying because the name means something about God's mercy that can be taken as true about the Angel.

While reading it does give pause like the other passages you mentioned.

I guess I can understand how he's not lying if there was a truth about the thing he said.

It could be that one of these commentaries are on to something and it is not a lie. But what about the clear cut lies of Abraham and Jacob? Were they committing sin? Do angels have the ability to lie? I don't think that the Patriarchs were sinning in those instance but do correct me if I am wrong. As far as angels fibbing, I can't say.
 
Upvote 0

D'Ann

Catholic... Faith, Hope and the greatest is LOVE
Oct 28, 2004
40,079
4,130
✟79,836.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I hope the following information is helpful:

Tobit

Introduction

The Book of Tobit, named after its principal hero, combines specifically Jewish piety and morality with oriental folklore in a fascinating story that has enjoyed wide popularity in both Jewish and Christian circles. Prayers, psalms, and words of wisdom, as well as the skillfully constructed story itself, provide valuable insights into the faith and the religious milieu of its unknown author. The book was probably written early in the second century B.C.; it is not known where.
Tobit, a devout and wealthy Israelite living among the captives deported to Nineveh from the northern kingdom of Israel in 721 B.C., suffers severe reverses and is finally blinded. Because of his misfortunes he begs the Lord to let him die. But recalling the large sum he had formerly deposited in far-off Media, he sends his son Tobiah there to bring back the money. In Media, at this same time, a young woman, Sarah, also prays for death, because she has lost seven husbands, each killed in turn on his wedding night by the demon Asmodeus. God hears the prayers of Tobit and Sarah, and sends the angel Raphael in disguise to aid them both.
Raphael makes the trip to Media with Tobiah. When Tobiah is attacked by a large fish as he bathes, Raphael orders him to seize it and to remove its gall, heart, and liver because they make "useful medicines." Later, at Raphael's urging, Tobiah marries Sarah, and uses the the fish's heart and liver to drive Asmodeus from the bridal chamber. Returning to Nineveh with his wife and his father's money, Tobiah rubs the fish's gall into his father's eyes and cures them. Finally, Raphael reveals his true identity and returns to heaven. Tobit then utters his beautiful hymn of praise. Before dying, Tobit tells his son to leave Nineveh because God will destroy that wicked city. After Tobiah buries his father and mother, he and his family depart for Media, where he later learns that the destruction of Nineveh has taken place.
The inspired author of the book used the literary form of religious novel (as in Jonah and Judith) for the purpose of instruction and edification. There may have been a historical nucleus around which the story was composed, but this possibility has nothing to do with the teaching of the book. The seemingly historical data-names of kings, cities, etc.-are used merely as vivid details to create interest and charm.
Although the Book of Tobit is usually listed with the historical books, it more correctly stands midway between them and the wisdom literature. It contains numerous maxims like those found in the wisdom books (cf Tobit 4:3-19, 21; 12:6-10; 14:7, 9) as well as the customary sapiential themes: fidelity to the law, the intercessory function of angels, piety toward parents, the purity of marriage, reverence for the dead, and the value of almsgiving, prayer, and fasting. The book makes Tobit a relative of Ahiqar, a hero of ancient Near Eastern folklore.
Written in Aramaic, the original of the book was lost for centuries. The Greek translation, existing in three different recensions, is our primary source. In 1955, fragments of the book in Aramaic and in Hebrew were recovered from Cave IV at Qumran. These texts are in substantial agreement with the Greek recension that has served as the basis for the present translation.
The divisions of the Book of Tobit are:
  1. Tobit's Ordeals (Tobit 1:3-3:6)
  2. Sarah's Plight (Tobit 3:7-17)
  3. Tobiah's Journey and Marriage to Sarah (Tobit 4:1-9:6)
  4. Tobiah's Return; Cure of Tobit's Blindness (Tobit 10:1-11:18)
  5. Raphael Reveals His Identity (Tobit 12:1-22)
  6. Tobit's Song of Praise (Tobit 13:1-18)
  7. Epilogue (Tobit 14:1-15)

Table of Contents
diamnd-r.gif
Nehemiah: Chapter 13
diamnd-r.gif
Next Chapter http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/tobit/intro.htm
 
Upvote 0

D'Ann

Catholic... Faith, Hope and the greatest is LOVE
Oct 28, 2004
40,079
4,130
✟79,836.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Tobias

tt=96

We shall first enumerate the various Biblical persons and then treat the book of this name. Persons

Tobias (2 Chronicles 17:8)


Hebrew tobyyahu "Yahweh is good"; Septuagint Tobias — one of the Levites whom Josaphat sent to teach in the cities of Juda. The name is omitted in the Vatican and Alexandrian codices, but given in the other important Greek manuscripts and the Vulgate. Tobias (Zechariah 6:10)


Hebrew tobyyahu, qeri tobyyah which is the reading also of verse 14; Septuagint chresimon (verse 10), tois chresimois autes (verse 14), which infers the reading tobeha; Vulgate Tobia — one of the party of Jews who came from Babylon to Jerusalem, in the time of Zorobabel, with silver and gold wherewith to make a crown for the head of Jesus, son of Josedec. Tobia (Ezra 2:60)


Hebrew tobyyah, "Jah is my good"; Septuagint Tobeia (Vatican), Tobias (Alexandrian), the same name occurring in Nehemiah 7:62, as Tobia and in the apocryphal III Esdras 5:37 as baenan (Vatican) or ban (Alexandrian) — one of the families that, on their return from exile, could show no written proof of their genealogy. Tobias (Nehemiah 2:10)


An Ammonite who together with Sanaballat the Horonite opposed the fortification of Jerusalem by Nehemias (Nehemiah 2:19; 4:3; 6:17; 13:4, 8). He is called "the servant"; we can only conjecture what that means. Cheyne (Encyclopedia Biblica, s.v.) thinks that haebed, servant, is a mistake for ha arbi, the Arab. Tobias (2 Maccabees 3:11)


The father of Hircanus. Tobias (Tobit 1:29, and passim)


The son of the following. Tobias the Elder


The chief character in the book that bears his name. Book of Tobias


A canonical book of the Old Testament. Name


In Codex Alexandrinus, biblos logon Tobit; in Vaticanus, Tobeit; in Sinaiticus, Tobeith; in Latin manuscripts Liber Tobiae, Liber Tobit et Tobiae, Liber utriusque Tobiae. In the Vulgate and Hebrew Fagii both father and son have the same name, Tobias, tobyyah. In other texts and versions, the name of the father varies: tobi, "my good" is Jahweh; in Hebrew Munster; Tobit or Tobeit in the Septuagint; Tobis, or Tobit, standing for tobith "goodness" of Jahweh, in the Old Latin. Text and versions


The original text, supposed to have been Hebrew, is lost; the reasons assigned for an Aramaic original warrant only a probable opinion that an Aramaic translation influenced our present Greek versions.
(1) Vulgate Versions
St. Jerome had not yet learned Aramaic, when, with the aid of a rabbi who knew both Aramaic and Hebrew, he made the Vulgate version. The rabbi expressed in Hebrew the thought of the Aramaic manuscripts and St. Jerome straightway put the same into Latin. It was the work of only a day (cf. Praef. in Tobiam). The Old Latin certainly influenced this hurried version. The Vulgate recension of the Aramaic version tells the story in the third person throughout, as do the Aramaic of Neubauer and the two Hebrew texts of Gaster (HL and HG), whereas all the other texts make Tobias speak in the first person up to 3:15. The following passages occur in the Vulgate alone: the wagging of the dog's tail (11:9); the comparison of the coating on Tobias's eye to the membrane of an egg (11:14); the wit of half an hour while the gall of the fish effected its cure (11:14); Tobias closing of the eyes of Raguel and Edna in death; also 2:12, 2:18, 3:19, 3:24, 6:16-18, 6:20-21, 8:4-5, 9:12b. Some parts of the Vulgate, such as the continence of Tobias (6:18; 7:4), were looked upon at times as Christian interpolations of Jerome until they were found in one of Gaster's Hebrew texts (HL). Lastly, the Vulgate and HL omit all mention of Ahikhar; Achior of Vulgate 11:20, is probably an addition to the text.
(2) Aramaic Versions
Besides the Aramaic version used by Jerome and now lost, there is the extant Aramaic text recently found in an Aramaic commentary on Genesis, "Midrash Bereshit Rabba". The writing of this midrash is fifteenth-century work; it contains the Book of Tobias as a haggada on the promise Jacob makes to give tithes to God (Genesis 28:22). Neubauer edited the text, "The Book of Tobit, a Chaldee Text from a unique manuscript in the Bodleian Library" (Oxford, 1878). He thinks that it is a briefer form of Jerome's Aramaic text. This is not likely. The language is at times a transliteration of Greek and gives evidence of being a transliteration of one or other of the Greek texts. It agrees with the Vulgate in that from the outset the tale of Tobias is told in the third person; otherwise it is closer to Codex Vaticanus and closer still to Codex Sinaiticus.
(3) Greek versions
There are three Greek recensions of Tobias. We shall refer to them by the numbers given to the Vatican and Sinaitic codices in Vigouroux, "La sainte bible polyglote", III (Paris, 1902).
(a) AB, the text of the Alexandrian (fifth century) and Vatican (fourth century) codices. This recension is found in many other codices of the Greek text, has been used for centuries by the Greek Church, is incorporated into the Sixtine edition of the Septuagint, and has been translated into Armenian as the authentic text of that rite. AB is preferred to the Sinaitic recension by Nöldeke, Grumm, and others, and yet rated by Nestle, Ewald, and Haris as a compendium rather than as a version of the entire original text. It condenses Edna's Prayer (x, 13), omits the blessing of Gabael (9:6), and has three or four unique readings (3:16; 14:8-10; 11:8).
(b) Aleph, the text of the Sinaitic (fourth-century) Codex. Its style is very much more diffuse than that of AB, which seems to have omitted of set purpose many stichoi of Aleph -- cf. 2:12, "on the seventh of Dustros she cut the web"; 5:3, the incident of the bond divided into two parts, one for Tobias and the other for Raguel; 5:5, the long conversation between Raphael and young Tobias; 6:8; 10:10; 12:8, etc. Aleph omits 4:7-19, and 13:6b-9, of AB.
(c) The text of Codices 44, 106, 107 for 6:9-13:8.—The first portion (1:1-6:8) and the last (13:9 to end) are identical with AB; the remainder seems to be an attempt at a better version of the original text. Independent work is shown by 6:9 to 7:17; 8:1 to 12:6, is very close to the Syriac and nearer to Aleph than to AB; 12:7-13:8 resembles each text in various small details. Distinctive readings of these cursives are Edna's Gnostic prayer, "Let all the Æons praise thee" (8:15); and the fact that Anna saw the dog running before Tobias (11:5).
(d) What seems to be a third recension of the second chapter is presented in Grenfell and Hunt, "Oxyrhyneus Papyri" (Oxford, 1911), part viii. The text differs from both AB and Aleph and consequently the Greek cursives.
(4) Old Latin Versions
Previous to the Latin Vulgate translation of the Aramaic recension (see above) there existed at least three Old Latin versions of a Greek text which was substantially Aleph; (a) the recension of Codex Regius Parisiensis 3654 and Codex 4 of the Library of St-Germain; (b) the recension of Cod. Vat. 7, containing 1-6:12; (c) the recension of the "Speculum" of St. Augustine.
(5) Syriac Version
Down to 7:9, it is a translation of AB; thereafter, it agrees with the Greek cursive text, save that 13:9-18, is omitted. This second part is clearly a second recension; its proper names are not spelled as in the first part. Ahikhar (14:10) is Achior (2:10); 'Edna (7:14) is 'Edna (7:2) 'Arag (9:2) is Raga (4:1, 4:20).
(6) Hebrew Versions
There are four Hebrew versions of this deuterocanonical story:
(a) HL, Hebrew Londinii, a thirteenth-century manuscript, found by Gaster in the British Museum, and translated by him in the "Proceedings of the Soc. of the Bibl. Archaeology" (xvii and xx). Besides a cento of Scriptural exhortations, this manuscript contains the narrative portion of Tobias, translated, Gaster thinks, from a text that stood in closest relation to the Aramaic used by St. Jerome. It is just possible, though not in the least probable, that the thirteenth-century Jewish author of HL made use of the Vulgate.
(c) HG, Hebrew Gasteri, a text copied by Gaster from a midrash on the Pentateuch and published in the "Proc. of the Soc. of Bib. Arch." (xix). This manuscript, now lost, agreed with the Aramaic of Neubauer and was in a compact style like that of the Vulgate recension.
(c) HF, Hebrew Fagii, a very free translation of AB, done in the twelfth century by a Jewish scholar: it is found in Walton's "Polyglot".
(d) HM, Hebrew Munsteri, published by Munster in Basle A.D. 1542, found in Walton's "Polyglot". This text agrees as a rule with Neubauer's Aramaic, even when the latter is at variance with AB. It is, according to Ginsburg, of fifth-century origin. The Hebrew versions together with the Aramaic omit reference to the dog, which plays a prominent part in the other versions.
The foregoing review of the various and diverse recensions of the Book of Tobias shows how hard it would be to reconstruct the original text and how easily textual errors may have crept into our Vulgate or the Aramaic on which it depends. Contents


Unless otherwise stated, these references are to the Vulgate recension, whereof the Douay is a translation. The story naturally divides itself into two parts:
(1) The fidelity of Tobias the elder and of Sara to the Lord (1:1-3:25)
  • The fidelity of Tobias (1:1-3:6) shown by his acts of mercy to fellow captives (1:11-17) and especially to the dead (1:18-25), acts that resulted in his blindness (2:1-18), the taunts of his wife (2:19-23), and the recourse of Tobias to God in prayer (3:1-6).
  • The fidelity of Sara, daughter of Raguel and Edna (3:7-23). The very day that Tobias in Ninive was taunted by his wife and turned to God, Sara in Ecbatana was taunted by her maid as the murderess of seven husbands (3:7-10), and turned to God in prayer (3:11-23). The prayers of both were heard (3:24-25).
(2) The fidelity of the Lord to Tobias and to Sara through the ministrations of the angel Raphael (4:1-12:22).
  • Raphael cares for the young Tobias on his journey to Gabael in Rages of Media to obtain the ten talents of silver left in bond by his father (4:1-9:12). The young man set out, after long instruction by his father (4:1-23); Raphael joins him as guide (5:1-28); Tobias while bathing in the Tigris is attacked by a large fish, catches it, and, at the advice of Raphael, keeps its heart, liver, and gall (6:1-22); they pass through Ecbatana, stop at Raguel's; Tobias asks Sara for wife and receives her (7:1-20); by continence and exorcism and the odor of the burning liver of the fish and the aid of Raphael, he conquers the devil who had slain the seven previous husbands of Sara (8:1-24); Raphael gets the money of Gabael in Rages, and brings him to Ecbatana to the marriage celebration of young Tobias (9:1-23).
  • Raphael cures the blindness of the elder Tobias, on the return of his son, and manifests the truth that he is an angel (10:2-12:31). Conclusion: the hymn of thanksgiving of Tobias the elder, and the subsequent history of both father and son (13:1-14:7).
Purpose

To show that God is faithful to those that are faithful to Him is evidently the chief purpose of the book, Neubauer (op. cit., p. xvi) makes out the burial of the dead to be the chief lesson; but the lesson of almsgiving is more prominent. Ewald, "Gesch. des Volkes Israel", IV, 233, sets fidelity to the Mosaic code as the main drift of the author, who writes for Jews of the Dispersion; but the book is meant for all Jews, and clearly inculcates for them many secondary lessons and one that is fundamental to the rest -- God is true to those who are true to Him.


http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14749c.htm
 
Upvote 0

DD2008

Well-Known Member
Oct 3, 2008
5,033
574
Texas
✟8,121.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
It could be that one of these commentaries are on to something and it is not a lie. But what about the clear cut lies of Abraham and Jacob? Were they committing sin? Do angels have the ability to lie? I don't think that the Patriarchs were sinning in those instance but do correct me if I am wrong. As far as angels fibbing, I can't say.


I tend to think they were sinning because lying is a sin. However in the case of Jacob did the sin fall on him or on his mother? She told him too so he was obeying her.

Abraham saying Sara is his sister in my opinion could have probably been better handled. He was scared he would get killed because she was so beautiful. What actually happened was they thought she was free so they were going to take her anyway. So Abraham tells the truth and there is one of those "awkward" moments....etc

We obviously can't judge the patriarchs. But I have been taught that everyone sinned except Christ by His will and Mary by Grace. So I always just took it as these stories are an example of "imperfection" lets say.

In the case of the Angel Raphael, we know angels can lie because Lucifer did does and will do it in abundance. He is the father of lies. That is why the story with Raphael gives me pause. I think I understand that he isn't lying now, upon consideration that what he said could in one sense actually be true. It would be like Joseph telling us Jesus was his son. It's true and not true all at the same time. But true enough to not be a lie. So what Raphael said was true enough to not be a lie. I think. But, I also hold that I think the story is actually true and not a work of fiction like many believe.
 
Upvote 0

Fish and Bread

Dona nobis pacem
Jan 31, 2005
14,109
2,389
✟75,685.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
It's good to see a discussion here about my favorite book in the bible. :)

In many cultures, ancient literature wasn't written with the same clear sense of distinction between fiction and non-fiction that usually exists in modern literature. The idea that we have complete fantasy on the one hand and then completely dispassionate researched unrefuteable verifiable facts on the other hand is something that often comes into play more in the last few centuries. Truth had a slightly variant meaning that is somehow difficult to convey within the constraints of the English language. I think Tobit is true in the sense that the ancients understood truth.
 
Upvote 0

DD2008

Well-Known Member
Oct 3, 2008
5,033
574
Texas
✟8,121.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
It's good to see a discussion here about my favorite book in the bible. :)

In many cultures, ancient literature wasn't written with the same clear sense of distinction between fiction and non-fiction that usually exists in modern literature. The idea that we have complete fantasy on the one hand and then completely dispassionate researched unrefuteable verifiable facts on the other hand is something that often comes into play more in the last few centuries. Truth had a slightly variant meaning that is somehow difficult to convey within the constraints of the English language. I think Tobit is true in the sense that the ancients understood truth.


So.....you're saying it's true! :thumbsup: Me too.
 
Upvote 0

DD2008

Well-Known Member
Oct 3, 2008
5,033
574
Texas
✟8,121.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
it seems "the ancients" cared more about the meaning of an event than the factual details of it..

lol that's kind of the opposite of today, where it's all about facts and the meaning is "relative" and "subjective" (except in the Church of course ;))


Jesus came to earth at the right time. Could you imagine what the world today would do to him? Obviously it would be a different world. The height of the Roman empire was a good call.
 
Upvote 0

MoNiCa4316

Totus Tuus
Jun 28, 2007
18,882
1,654
✟49,687.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Jesus came to earth at the right time. Could you imagine what the world today would do to him? Obviously it would be a different world. The height of the Roman empire was a good call.

yea maybe they wouldn't crucify Him, but they might put Him in a mental institution or something :( which is just terribly sad to think about. the world's so messed up
 
Upvote 0

Michie

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Feb 5, 2002
182,670
66,175
Woods
✟5,927,555.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
it seems "the ancients" cared more about the meaning of an event than the factual details of it..

lol that's kind of the opposite of today, where it's all about facts and the meaning is "relative" and "subjective" (except in the Church of course ;))
I look at them as we do todays devotionals & inspirational stories. Based on the foundations of the faith but used as a teaching tool to edify others.
 
Upvote 0

Michie

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Feb 5, 2002
182,670
66,175
Woods
✟5,927,555.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Not really a parable but an uplifting story that teaches all the possibilities with God through faith & obedience. Something the Jewish people needed at the time.

You'll notice in the story is the priority of putting God #1.

All else will be fulfilled through faith & obedience through that. No matter how hopeless or far fetched it appears.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.