The book of James NOT written to we Gentiles.

eph3Nine · Aug 29, 2006

Dispy said:
eph3Nine is right. Nowhere in the above passages does it say that the Church, the Body of Chrst, is the Bride of Christ. You are reading that into it.

If it does state that the Church, the Body of Christ, is the Bride of Christ. point those verses out for me if you will.

The above passages teach that the love relationship between the husband and the wife should be the same as the love relationshsip that Christ has with His Church.

Anyone reading the scriptures HONESTLY will see what God is comparing the love relationship TO...and wont make it say something that it doesn't. I find that "religious traditions" are very hard for folks to let go of. The only way it happens is by STUDYING what the Word of God REALLY says and to whom. Scripture will TELL us the answers to these questions, and then its up to US to have a METANOIA moment...ie: to REPENT, or "change our mind to think as God thinks."

THAT is what God is after. Those who are willing to set aside churchy talk and traditions of men and hunker down to BELIEVE what He has revealed at GREAT PRICE in His Word.

A Brother In Christ · Aug 29, 2006

who is the bride in matt 25:1-13 ....

hint its a mystery eph 5:32

Dispy · Aug 30, 2006

A Brother In Christ said:
who is the bride in matt 25:1-13 ....

hint its a mystery eph 5:32

Your first clue can be found in Matthew 25:1 "Then shall the kingdom of heaven (out of heaven) be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bride-groom."

While Jesus was upon the earth, He only spoke of those things pertaining to the "kingdom of heaven." What kingdom was He speaking of? The one that He will establish upon the earth.

Will the Church, the Body of Christ, inherit the kingdom that Christ will estalish upon the earth? NO!!! "For we (members of the Body of Christ) know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands ETERNAL IN THE HEAVENS" (2Cor.5:1).

Eph.5:20 Tells me that I, as a member of the Body of Christ, am more a part of the Groom then the bride. "For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bone."

The great mystery of vs. 32 is the Love that Christ has for His Church. I defy you to show me where the Chruch, the Body of Christ, is the Bride of Christ, in all of Ephesians 5. If you could, you would have already pointed it out.

Eagerly awaiting your reply.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

A Brother In Christ · Aug 30, 2006

Dispy said:
Your first clue can be found in Matthew 25:1 "Then shall the kingdom of heaven (out of heaven) be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bride-groom."

groom is Jesus

While Jesus was upon the earth, He only spoke of those things pertaining to the "kingdom of heaven." What kingdom was He speaking of? The one that He will establish upon the earth.

Will the Church, the Body of Christ, inherit the kingdom that Christ will estalish upon the earth? NO!!! "For we (members of the Body of Christ) know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands ETERNAL IN THE HEAVENS" (2Cor.5:1).

putting words in my mouth that I did not say....

the bride will marry Christ at the Rapture

the Jews will get to come after they join together ... the marriage party after the wedding ... this is part of party which could last a week or more

The church and Christ will rule from heaven ...

Eph.5:20 Tells me that I, as a member of the Body of Christ, am more a part of the Groom then the bride. "For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bone."

1 cor 6:16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. 17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

two things to notice
#1 we[the body] are joined in spirit.... marriage
#2 physcial union is the marriage... rapture 1 john 3:2

The great mystery of vs. 32 is the Love that Christ has for His Church. I defy you to show me where the Chruch, the Body of Christ, is the Bride of Christ, in all of Ephesians 5. If you could, you would have already pointed it out.

Eagerly awaiting your reply.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

Click to expand...

eph 5 :23 for the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church;and he is the saviour of the body.

is the whole church saved yet... no
other wise the rapture would accure

we notice Husband is Christ
we notice the wife is the church

Eph 5:30 For we are member of His body, of His flesh and of His bones 31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

1 john 3:2, 1 cor 6:16-17

body truth and bride truth

simple you are making this two hard

eph3Nine · Aug 30, 2006

Why do some think that their words are going to somehow change what God has already SAID? LOL

Some of these responses are simply knee jerk reactions and the writers have taken NO time whatsoever to even read or study out what is being discussed.

Ya have to wonder if they will keep this banter up when they come face to face with the author of the Words they are ignoring!

A Brother In Christ · Aug 30, 2006

eph3Nine said:
Why do some think that their words are going to somehow change what God has already SAID? LOL

Some of these responses are simply knee jerk reactions and the writers have taken NO time whatsoever to even read or study out what is being discussed.

Ya have to wonder if they will keep this banter up when they come face to face with the author of the Words they are ignoring!

its called rightly dividing the word.. with verses where I got it

you never correct me with verse but banter...is what you call it

A Brother In Christ · Aug 30, 2006

PS cannot wait for dispy

He can at least put a discussion about it with words and scripture

eph3Nine · Aug 30, 2006

Scriptures given and IGNORED do not count , I guess. Oy vey!!!

Dispy · Aug 31, 2006

A Brother In Christ said:
who is the bride in matt 25:1-13 ....

hint its a mystery eph 5:32

Dispy said:
Your first clue can be found in Matthew 25:1 "Then shall the kingdom of heaven (out of heaven) be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bride-groom."

A Brother In Christ said:
groom is Jesus

That is exactly what it says. Great observation.

Dispy said:
While Jesus was upon the earth, He only spoke of those things pertaining to the "kingdom of heaven." What kingdom was He speaking of? The one that He will establish upon the earth.

Will the Church, the Body of Christ, inherit the kingdom that Christ will estalish upon the earth? NO!!! "For we (members of the Body of Christ) know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands ETERNAL IN THE HEAVENS" (2Cor.5:1).

A Brother In Christ said:
putting words in my mouth that I did not say....

What words did I put into your mouth that you didn't say?

A Brother In Christ said:
the bride will marry Christ at the Rapture

the Jews will get to come after they join together ... the marriage party after the wedding ... this is part of party which could last a week or more

The church and Christ will rule from heaven ...

How about some Scriptural support for what you said. Also, PLEASE tell/show me what the Church will rule from heaven. Chapter and verse.

Dispy said:
Eph.5:20 Tells me that I, as a member of the Body of Christ, am more a part of the Groom then the bride. "For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bone."

A Brother In Christ said:
1 cor 6:16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. 17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

two things to notice
#1 we[the body] are joined in spirit.... marriage
#2 physcial union is the marriage... rapture 1 john 3:2

Why did you not quote vers 1Cor.6:15 along with 16. Verse 15 says: "Know ye not that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of and harlot? God forbid."

Verse 15 confirms what I said about what Ephesians 5:20 says. 1Cor.16 is not speaking of "the Bride of Christ." Also, where does 1Cor.6:16 say anything about a marrage. You are reading that into it.

I John 3:2, John is speaking to those members that he, James and Peter agreed to stay with in Galatians 2:9. He is speaking to those believers that were saved during the preaching of "the gospel of the kingdom." They have an earthly kingdom to look forward to, and will never be raptured to heaven. They will be raised from the dead to enter the kingdom.

Dispy said:
The great mystery of vs. 32 is the Love that Christ has for His Church. I defy you to show me where the Chruch, the Body of Christ, is the Bride of Christ, in all of Ephesians 5. If you could, you would have already pointed it out.

Eagerly awaiting your reply.

A Brother In Christ said:
eph 5 :23 for the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church;and he is the saviour of the body.

is the whole church saved yet... no
other wise the rapture would accure

we notice Husband is Christ
we notice the wife is the church

Eph. 5:23 is saying that the man is the head of the wife, just as Christ is the HEAD of the Church. Doesn't say a word about the Chruch being the Bride of Christ. It is speaking of the "chain of command" in a marriage.

Where does it say that the wife is the chruch?

A Brother In Christ said:
Eph 5:30 For we are member of His body, of His flesh and of His bones 31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

1 john 3:2, 1 cor 6:16-17

body truth and bride truth

simple you are making this two hard

Ephesians 5:21-33 is speaking of the love relationship that the husband and wife should have. Paul equates it to the Love that Christ has for His Chruch. Nowhere in these verses does it say that Church is the Bride of Christ. You are plainly reading that intop them.

FallingWaters · Aug 31, 2006

eph3Nine said:
15. The book of James was not written to Gentiles

The apostles' separation from the Gentiles is clear from the book of James, as well, because he specifically addressed his epistle to Israel's "twelve tribes which are scattered abroad", according to James 1:1 -

James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

We would therefore have to "spiritualize" these twelve tribes in James 1:1 if we wish to make Gentiles even fit into James' intended audience.

I don't understand what the problem is that you are trying to point out. You seem to be saying that the book of James has no relevance to non-Jewish Christians. I respectfully disagree.

Even though he originally addressed it to Jewish Believers, the wisdom contained therein is certainly helpful to me- a Gentile Believer.

When I was a new believer, I memorized the entire book of James. It was one of the best things I have ever done. It taught me a lot of basic principles concerning the ways of God. I live by those principles. It's like the equivalent of Proverbs in the New Testament. It has one of the most magnificent passages in the Bible on the use of the tongue.

I believe the Book of James is for all believers.

eph3Nine · Aug 31, 2006

You may believe what you wish...that doesnt make it true. James tells us to whom his letter is addressed and he is a minister to the circumcision. We are the UNCIRCUMCISION and our instructions are clearly found in Pauls epistles. We are not Israel and ISRAEL was NOT the body of Christ. That was my point...keep the two separate.

A Brother In Christ · Aug 31, 2006

Dispy said:
That is exactly what it says. Great observation.

What words did I put into your mouth that you didn't say?

How about some Scriptural support for what you said. Also, PLEASE tell/show me what the Church will rule from heaven. Chapter and verse.

1 cor 6:2 judge the world ...how did we get to be top dog?

put into Christ by Holy Spirit... 1 cor 12:12-13

lowest spirit being raised up to judge angels 1 cor 6:3

Who is able to this.. by what authority?

Why did you not quote vers 1Cor.6:15 along with 16. Verse 15 says: "Know ye not that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of and harlot? God forbid."

it shows that when the flesh becomes one... it is the physical union of spirit in this case

Verse 15 confirms what I said about what Ephesians 5:20 says. 1Cor.16 is not speaking of "the Bride of Christ." Also, where does 1Cor.6:16 say anything about a marrage. You are reading that into it.

two flesh become one... right reading it in.... this is understood in context

I John 3:2, John is speaking to those members that he, James and Peter agreed to stay with in Galatians 2:9. He is speaking to those believers that were saved during the preaching of "the gospel of the kingdom." They have an earthly kingdom to look forward to, and will never be raptured to heaven. They will be raised from the dead to enter the kingdom.

if you want to give a promise that is to you to someone else... your judgement call .....

Eph. 5:23 is saying that the man is the head of the wife, just as Christ is the HEAD of the Church. Doesn't say a word about the Chruch being the Bride of Christ. It is speaking of the "chain of command" in a marriage.

man and wife like wise JC and the church are... making this way to difficult

Where does it say that the wife is the chruch?

please

Ephesians 5:21-33 is speaking of the love relationship that the husband and wife should have. Paul equates it to the Love that Christ has for His Chruch. Nowhere in these verses does it say that Church is the Bride of Christ. You are plainly reading that intop them.

right....

FallingWaters · Aug 31, 2006

ah. ok.

timlamb · Aug 31, 2006

FallingWaters said:
I don't understand what the problem is that you are trying to point out. You seem to be saying that the book of James has no relevance to non-Jewish Christians. I respectfully disagree.

Even though he originally addressed it to Jewish Believers, the wisdom contained therein is certainly helpful to me- a Gentile Believer.

When I was a new believer, I memorized the entire book of James. It was one of the best things I have ever done. It taught me a lot of basic principles concerning the ways of God. I live by those principles. It's like the equivalent of Proverbs in the New Testament. It has one of the most magnificent passages in the Bible on the use of the tongue.

I believe the Book of James is for all believers.

Falling Waters

eph3Nine · Aug 31, 2006

If James is a minister of the CIRCUMCISION...and the Body of Christ is the UNcircumcision...then how can the message James preaches to the Nation Israel be for US today? Those of you who think these terms are synonymous....have you taken the time to look up what was involved in each of these very DIFFERENT situations? Be honest. Just what was REQUIRED of each of these DIFFERENT belief systems?

The program given to the CIRCUMCISION/ ie: Prophecy and the law of Moses isnt even in operation any longer. If it were, we would still be making animal sacrifices for our sins...NO...actually we wouldnt...but Israel would. WE, as Gentiles, would still be "strangers to the covenants of promise" and "aliens to the commonwealth of Israel", and "without God and without hope".

Do you not SEE that Gods SECRET plan included ALL people...not just those who came THRU believing Israel? Under Israels program He was a ransom for MANY. Under the GRACE program He is the ransom for ALL. Do you not see the difference in those words? Were they put there in ERROR? Can God indeed be that careless?

We can certainly learn from some of the universal truths found in James, but he himself tells us to whom he was addressing his comments, and they werent to the Body of Christ.

REMEMBER....the jews were told to go TO THE JEW ALONE with THEIR Gospel..they were forbidden to go to gentiles. That means that James, Peter and John COULDNT go to gentiles and preach. Their message was meant for believing ISRAEL and THEN they would take it to the other nations.

Please...study...LOOK at Gods plan for Israel. SEE that we gentiles werent included and WHY God had a secret plan in mind all along. Please dont continue mocking the FACT that God HIMSELF raised up ANOTHER apostle...not one of the twelve, or even the thirteenth (Israel only needed twelve apostles for 12 thrones)...This OTHER APOSTLE stood ALONE...as Gods spokesman to the Body of Christ.

I realize you think we are teaching error...but it actually is YOU who stop short of the full revelation of God given to mankind. I would DIE for this truth....are you that sure of YOUR belief? Even after being shown from scripture?

Jerrysch · Aug 31, 2006

eph3Nine said:
15. The book of James was not written to Gentiles

The apostles' separation from the Gentiles is clear from the book of James, as well, because he specifically addressed his epistle to Israel's "twelve tribes which are scattered abroad", according to James 1:1 -

James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

We would therefore have to "spiritualize" these twelve tribes in James 1:1 if we wish to make Gentiles even fit into James' intended audience. However, spiritualizing only select passages, such as James 1:1, creates great confusion, if other portions of the epistle are still taken literally (and they are indeed taken quite literally by many believers today). The problem then becomes a subjective one: Who is to determine which passages to spiritualize, and which ones to take literally? For example: If James 1:1 is to be "spiritualized" to include Gentiles, then why shouldn't James chapter 2 be "spiritualized", as well?

Plus, in addition to James' statement that he was writing to "the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad", he also made a binding agreement with Peter, John, and Paul to confine his ministry to "the circumcision" (the children of Israel). By contrast, though, Paul (who refers to himself as "the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles" in Ro.15:16) was to go unto "the heathen" along with Barnabas, as we see in Gal.2:7-9 -

7: But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
8: (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles
9: And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

In verse 7 above, Paul clearly made a distinction between the gospel of the UNcircumcision that had been committed unto him, and the gospel of the circumcision that Peter, James, and John were preaching. As a result, Paul and Barnabas were to go unto "the heathen", according to verse 9. And Peter, unto whom the gospel of the circumcision was committed, agreed to go unto "the circumcision", with James and John.

When these apostles therefore extended "the right hands of fellowship" to Paul and Barnabas, they bound the agreement, because the Lord Himself had previously agreed to support any such binding agreement these apostles made. Indeed, He had given Peter the authority to make such agreements, in Mt.16:18-19 -

18: And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19: And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

In addition, the power to bind on earth had also been granted to the rest of the disciples, as well (Mt.18:18). As a result, Peter (having the God-given authority to do so) bound Paul and Barnabas to go specifically to the heathen with the gospel of the uncircumcision. By doing so, Peter also bound James, John, and himself to confine their ministry to the circumcision saints.

Therefore, in view of the fact that Peter, James, and John agreed to "go unto the circumcision" (Gal.2:7-9), and since James confirms this by the fact that he wrote his epistle specifically to the 12 tribes of Israel (as he states in James 1:1), this also means that Peter, Jude, and John must have written their epistles to "the circumcision" (i.e., the twelve tribes of Israel), as well.

As a side note, it should be mentioned that the authorship of the book of James is still disputed, and will probably never be resolved to everyone's satisfaction. At least three different apostles are named James in the New Testament scriptures. In the book of Galatians, Paul refers to "James the Lord's brother" as an apostle (Gal.1:19), and states that James was with Peter and John when they agreed to confine their ministry to the circumcision (Gal.2:7-9). By comparing Paul's statements in Gal.1:19 and 2:7-9 with James 1:1, it is possible that "James the Lord's brother" wrote the epistle that bears his name.

However, there were also two other apostles named James, as well. One was the brother of John, the son of Zebedee (Mt.10:2), whom Herod killed with the sword (Acts 12:1-2). Likewise, there was also an apostle named James who was "the son of Alphaeus" (Mt.10:3). And indeed, one of these three apostles named James also had a brother named Jude, who wrote the epistle of Jude (see Jude 1:1).

Although this is not a common view, it is still possible that the epistle of James could have been written by "James the brother of John", whom Herod killed with the sword in Acts 12:2. If this is the case, it would explain why his epistle states that "faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone" (James 2:17); "faith without works is dead" (2:20); "by works a man is justified, and not by faith only" (2:24); etc. While the epistle of James seems to be lacking in much of the doctrine that is in Paul's epistles, it is obvious that Peter and John both included doctrines in their epistles that they learned from Paul (for example, compare 1 Pet. 1:18-19 to Peter's sermons during the book of Acts). So, because "James the brother of John" was killed before Paul received his revelation from the Lord, this would explain why the epistle of James says these things, if he was the one who wrote it. "James the brother of John" died before he could learn the truths that Peter and John apparently learned (directly or indirectly) from the apostle Paul.

In any case, no matter which James wrote the epistle, his statement that the twelve tribes were "scattered abroad" (James 1:1) also matches the events recorded in Acts 8:1-4, which states that the church at Jerusalem was "scattered abroad" after the stoning of Stephen (compare Acts 11:19). In addition, this also agrees with the Lord's words at the "last supper". At that time, He quoted a prophecy which stated that the sheep of the flock would be "scattered abroad" upon His crucifixion, in Mt.26:31 -

Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.

The above prophecy which the Lord quoted comes from Zech.13:7-9 -

7: Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
8: And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9: And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

In fact, Mark also records the Lord's quotation of the above prophecy, in Mk.14:27. According to this prophecy, then, "the sheep" (i.e., the nation of Israel) would be scattered upon the Lord's crucifixion, and one third of them would be brought "through the fire" (compare Mt.3:11; Luke 12:49). As a result, since James wrote his epistle to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, the Gentiles were not among his intended audience. To avoid doctrinal confusion, then, we should accept the book of James as it is, and simply allow it to say exactly what it says, to whom it was written (the twelve tribes of Israel). We should neither spiritualize the first verse, nor James chapter 2, nor the rest of the epistle.

Yet there are doctrinal applications which beleivers in Mesiah can draw from James as well as the rest of Scripture.

Jerrysch · Aug 31, 2006

eph3Nine said:
You may believe what you wish...that doesnt make it true. James tells us to whom his letter is addressed and he is a minister to the circumcision. We are the UNCIRCUMCISION and our instructions are clearly found in Pauls epistles. We are not Israel and ISRAEL was NOT the body of Christ. That was my point...keep the two separate.

I think you are missing something... what if him to whom you are posting is of ethnic Israel? What then? You can't assume that all who come to salvation in this dispensation are gentiles.

RGL1 · Aug 31, 2006

If James is for Jews I could just say that :
ROMANS is for Rome
CORINTHIANS is for CORINTH
GALATIANS is for GALATIA
EPHESIANS is for EPHESUS
PHILIPPIANS is for PHILIPPI
COLOSSIANS is for COLOSSE
THESSALONIANS is for THESSALONICA
TIMOTHY is for TIMOTHY
TITUS is for TITUS
PHILEMON is for PHILEMON

RGL1 · Aug 31, 2006

FallingWaters said:
I don't understand what the problem is that you are trying to point out. You seem to be saying that the book of James has no relevance to non-Jewish Christians. I respectfully disagree.

Even though he originally addressed it to Jewish Believers, the wisdom contained therein is certainly helpful to me- a Gentile Believer.

When I was a new believer, I memorized the entire book of James. It was one of the best things I have ever done. It taught me a lot of basic principles concerning the ways of God. I live by those principles. It's like the equivalent of Proverbs in the New Testament. It has one of the most magnificent passages in the Bible on the use of the tongue.

I believe the Book of James is for all believers.

Well said! Bravo!

You're right.

eph3Nine · Sep 1, 2006

RGL1 said:
If James is for Jews I could just say that :
ROMANS is for Rome
CORINTHIANS is for CORINTH
GALATIANS is for GALATIA
EPHESIANS is for EPHESUS
PHILIPPIANS is for PHILIPPI
COLOSSIANS is for COLOSSE
THESSALONIANS is for THESSALONICA
TIMOTHY is for TIMOTHY
TITUS is for TITUS
PHILEMON is for PHILEMON

Now this is just plain silly.

James tells us to whom He is writing, doesnt he? He is the author, he ought to KNOW who he is addressing.

The other letters were written by Paul. His letters were admittedly addressed to the Body of Christ....of which ISRAEL is not a party.

The book of James NOT written to we Gentiles.

Mid Acts, Pauline, Dispy to the max!

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