The Book of Enoch?

Enoch isn't Scripture because it has never been accepted as Scripture by the consensus of the Christian Church.

It's that simple.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

Enoch isn't Scripture because it has never been accepted as Scripture by the consensus of the Christian Church.

It's that simple.

-CryptoLutheran

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Wrong.

• It was excepted by Early Christians.

• It Was Excepted by Pre Christian Essene Hebrews shown by fact that 1 Enoch fragments were found with The Dead Sea Scrolls.

• It was Excepted by Pre-Christian Jewish Ethiopians who had a connection to Second Temple Judaism through King Solomon and Queen Sheba.

• It Was and Still Is Official Biblical Canon in The Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church carried on from Ancient Judaism : The Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church

• Tertullian Literally Calls Enoch Scripture.

• More then 10 different Ancient Writers from Historians to Early Church Writers refer to The Stories in 1 Enoch. referenced Here : The Book of Enoch?

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith said:

Wrong.

• It was excepted by Early Christians.

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Provide your sources.

• It Was Excepted by Pre Christian Essene Hebrews shown by fact that 1 Enoch fragments were found with The Dead Sea Scrolls.

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Irrelevant.

• It was Excepted by Pre-Christian Jewish Ethiopians who had a connection to Second Temple Judaism through King Solomon and Queen Sheba.

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Irrelevant.

• It Was and Still Is Official Biblical Canon in The Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church carried on from Ancient Judaism : The Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church

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And them only. They are the exception.

• Tertullian Literally Calls Enoch Scripture.

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Citation? Also, pre or post apostasy Tertullian?

• More then 10 different Ancient Writers from Historians to Early Church Writers refer to The Stories in 1 Enoch. referenced Here : The Book of Enoch?

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Some references, some inferences. Apart from Tertullian, I don't see anyone even hinting that Enoch is Holy Scripture, and in several cases we have non-Christian writers, such as Josephus, who most definitely didn't consider Enoch Scripture.

Try better.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

Provide your sources.
Irrelevant.
Irrelevant.
And them only. They are the exception.
Citation? Also, pre or post apostasy Tertullian?
Some references, some inferences. Apart from Tertullian, I don't see anyone even hinting that Enoch is Holy Scripture, and in several cases we have non-Christian writers, such as Josephus, who most definitely didn't consider Enoch Scripture.
Try better.

-CryptoLutheran

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Everything I wrote is Very Relevant.

• Tertullian - On the Apparel of Women - Book 1 - Chapter 3:1-3 (160-220 A.D.)

“I am aware that The Scripture Of Enoch which has assigned this order of action to angels, is not received by some, because it is not admitted into the Jewish canon either.
............
But since Enoch In The Same Scripture has preached likewise concerning the Lord, nothing at all must be rejected by us which pertains to us; and we read that ‘Every Scripture Suitable For Edification Is Divinely Inspired.’

• Tertullian - On the Apparel of Women - Book 1 - Chapter 3:1-3 (160-220 A.D.)

CHURCH FATHERS: On the Apparel of Women (Tertullian)

The only reason why some early Christians didn't except 1 Enoch is because The Council of Jamnia in 90 A.D. rejected it. They specifically excluded Hebrews that believed Yeshua was The Messiah from The Council. The Book of Enoch was bringing Too Many Hebrews to faith in Yeshua Messiah.

Council of Jamnia - Wikipedia

SummaScriptura said:

There are megaliths around the world which still line up perfectly with celestial events. If the earth is experiencing any drift, 1,000s of years haven't demonstrated it. Your idea of "drift" makes sense as an idea only, but the practical reality of the earth's most recent millennia don't add up to anything significant.

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The drift I'm mostly talking about are the agricultural feasts on a calendar that's only 364 days long. After about 25 years, the seasons would be a month early. As an example of the problem, eventually the wheat harvest (culminating in the feast of weeks) would occur in the winter, and there would be no wheat to harvest. The problem is in the book of Enoch's 364 day solar calendar - it simply doesn't accurately reflect the actual orbit of the earth around the sun. So given this fatal flaw in a central point of the books' theology, I can't see how this should be an authoritative book for anyone. You don't even follow it's calendar anyway - you follow the Gregorian one just like everyone else.

Yekcidmij said:

it simply doesn't accurately reflect the actual orbit of the earth around the sun.

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That's Because The Earth Is Not Rotating Around The Sun. Heliocentrism is A Lie.

The Sun and Moon are smaller then the earth and are what actually move. The Book of Enoch clearly teaches this and so does The Bible:


So the Sun stood still,
And The Moon Stopped,
Till the people had revenge
Upon their enemies.
Is this not written in the Book of Jasher? So The Sun Stood Still in the midst of heaven, and did not hasten to go down for about a whole day.
• Joshua 10:13

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith said:

That's Because The Earth Is Not Rotating Around The Sun. Heliocentrism is A Lie.

The Sun and Moon are smaller then the earth are what actually move.

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And there you have it. Reductio ad absurdum.

Yekcidmij said:

The drift I'm mostly talking about are the agricultural feasts on a calendar that's only 364 days long. After about 25 years, the seasons would be a month early. As an example of the problem, eventually the wheat harvest (culminating in the feast of weeks) would occur in the winter, and there would be no wheat to harvest. The problem is in the book of Enoch's 364 day solar calendar - it simply doesn't accurately reflect the actual orbit of the earth around the sun.

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Your error, for about the fifth or sixth time, is that you simply do not begin the year at spring equinox, as Enoch's perfect revealed calendar does, and you insist on dividing your days by hours, and counting hours.
Enoch's calendar days are counted in parts, and there are 18 parts in each day. The 18 parts of each of the four intercalendar "stop/sabbath" days that head the four seasons are not counted in Enoch's revealed calendar, but their number, "4", are added to the number of days in a year.
Therefore; as Enoch stated, "the years are completed in perfect justice to eternity"....
BTW: you follow an unbiblical error also, in believing the earth is a planet (wandering star, as the word means). Both Enoch and Torah and NT reveal that the sun has its path in the circle of the earth. DSS scrolls also agree with Enoch, Torah, other OT prophets, and DSS writings, that the sun orbits earth in the circle of the earth.

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith said:

That's Because The Earth Is Not Rotating Around The Sun. Heliocentrism is A Lie.

The Sun and Moon are smaller then the earth and are what actually move. The Book of Enoch clearly teaches this and so does The Bible:

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True.
What will foolish men think when the stars fall to the earth,and the heavens are rolled back?

yeshuasavedme said:

you follow an unbiblical error also, in believing the earth is a planet

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I think my case has been made at this point. When you resort to saying that the earth isn't a planet, it doesn't orbit the sun, and the lights in the sky are really angels, I think my point is made.

A FaceBook friend in the Book of Enoch FB group made some memes from your research and I made a gallery page to showcase them here: Early Christian writers accepted the Book of Enoch. Only later, when Greek philosophicala assumptions dominated did the Church cast it out!

SummaScriptura said:

A FaceBook friend in the Book of Enoch FB group made some memes from your research and I made a gallery page to showcase them here: Early Christian writers accepted the Book of Enoch. Only later, when Greek philosophicala assumptions dominated did the Church cast it out!

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Awesome. Thank you.

SummaScriptura said:

A FaceBook friend in the Book of Enoch FB group made some memes from your research and I made a gallery page to showcase them here: Early Christian writers accepted the Book of Enoch. Only later, when Greek philosophicala assumptions dominated did the Church cast it out!

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Excellent!!!

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith said:

That's Because The Earth Is Not Rotating Around The Sun. Heliocentrism is A Lie.

The Sun and Moon are smaller then the earth and are what actually move. The Book of Enoch clearly teaches this and so does The Bible:


So the Sun stood still,
And The Moon Stopped,
Till the people had revenge
Upon their enemies.
Is this not written in the Book of Jasher? So The Sun Stood Still in the midst of heaven, and did not hasten to go down for about a whole day.
• Joshua 10:13

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The sun and the moon have an apparent path across the sky which is true of either model. I don't think we should take this as a verse establishing cosmology but as a description of how the sun and the moon no longer behaved according to expectations. They stopped along their expected paths.

Like you I think the book of Enoch contains scripture. Jude quotes it as a prophecy of Christs return which classifies that portion as scripture. I just worry about retroactively pulling cosmology from a text describing a battle. The chapters which Yekcig is referring to in his objection is not a part of the book of the watchers. The section he is referring to is dated much later and is considered separate from the "book of the watchers". That section could be fictitious and not affect the authenticity of the book of the watchers.

You guys have literally no idea what is going on in that book lol...

I agree it's inspired but it's not a place to find facts about the earth, the moon and the stars.

Long Read Ahead:

[Chapter 72]

1 The book of the courses of the luminaries of the heaven, the relations of each, according to their classes, their dominion and their seasons, according to their names and places of origin, and according to their months, which Uriel, the holy angel, who was with me, who is their guide, showed me; and he showed me all their laws exactly as they are, and how it is with regard to all the years of the world 2 and unto eternity, till the new creation is accomplished which dureth till eternity. And this is the first law of the luminaries: the luminary the Sun has its rising in the eastern portals of the heaven, 3 and its setting in the western portals of the heaven. And I saw six portals in which the sun rises, and six portals in which the sun sets and the moon rises and sets in these portals, and the leaders of the stars and those whom they lead: six in the east and six in the west, and all following each other 4 in accurately corresponding order: also many windows to the right and left of these portals. And first there goes forth the great luminary, named the Sun, and his circumference is like the 5 circumference of the heaven, and he is quite filled with illuminating and heating fire. The chariot on which he ascends, the wind drives, and the sun goes down from the heaven and returns through the north in order to reach the east, and is so guided that he comes to the appropriate (lit. ' that ') portal and 6 shines in the face of the heaven. In this way he rises in the first month in the great portal, which 7 is the fourth [those six portals in the cast]. And in that fourth portal from which the sun rises in the first month are twelve window-openings, from which proceed a flame when they are opened in 8 their season. When the sun rises in the heaven, he comes forth through that fourth portal thirty, 9 mornings in succession, and sets accurately in the fourth portal in the west of the heaven. And during this period the day becomes daily longer and the night nightly shorter to the thirtieth 10 morning. On that day the day is longer than the night by a ninth part, and the day amounts exactly to ten parts and the night to eight parts. And the sun rises from that fourth portal, and sets in the fourth and returns to the fifth portal of the east thirty mornings, and rises from it and sets in the fifth 12 portal. And then the day becomes longer by two parts and amounts to eleven parts, and the night 13 becomes shorter and amounts to seven parts. And it returns to the east and enters into the sixth 14 portal, and rises and sets in the sixth portal one-and-thirty mornings on account of its sign. On that day the day becomes longer than the night, and the day becomes double the night, and the day 15 becomes twelve parts, and the night is shortened and becomes six parts. And the sun mounts up to make the day shorter and the night longer, and the sun returns to the east and enters into the 16 sixth portal, and rises from it and sets thirty mornings. And when thirty mornings are accomplished, 17 the day decreases by exactly one part, and becomes eleven parts, and the night seven. And the sun goes forth from that sixth portal in the west, and goes to the east and rises in the fifth portal for 18 thirty mornings, and sets in the west again in the fifth western portal. On that day the day decreases by two parts, and amounts to ten parts and the night to eight parts. And the sun goes forth from that fifth portal and sets in the fifth portal of the west, and rises in the fourth portal for one- 20 and-thirty mornings on account of its sign, and sets in the west. On that day the day is equalized with the night, [and becomes of equal length], and the night amounts to nine parts and the day to 21 nine parts. And the sun rises from that portal and sets in the west, and returns to the east and rises 22 thirty mornings in the third portal and sets in the west in the third portal. And on that day the night becomes longer than the day, and night becomes longer than night, and day shorter than day till the thirtieth morning, and the night amounts exactly to ten parts and the day to eight 23 parts. And the sun rises from that third portal and sets in the third portal in the west and returns to the east, and for thirty mornings rises 24 in the second portal in the east, and in like manner sets in the second portal in the west of the heaven. And on that day the night amounts to eleven 25 parts and the day to seven parts. And the sun rises on that day from that second portal and sets in the west in the second portal, and returns to the east into the first portal for one-and-thirty 26 mornings, and sets in the first portal in the west of the heaven. And on that day the night becomes longer and amounts to the double of the day: and the night amounts exactly to twelve parts and 27 the day to six. And the sun has (therewith) traversed the divisions of his orbit and turns again on those divisions of his orbit, and enters that portal thirty mornings and sets also in the west 28 opposite to it. And on that night has the night decreased in length by a ninth part, and the night 29 has become eleven parts and the day seven parts. And the sun has returned and entered into the second portal in the east, and returns on those his divisions of his orbit for thirty mornings, rising 30 and setting. And on that day the night decreases in length, and the night amounts to ten parts 31 and the day to eight. And on that day the sun rises from that portal, and sets in the west, and returns to the east, and rises in the third portal for one-and-thirty mornings, and sets in the west of the heaven. 32 On that day the night decreases and amounts to nine parts, and the day to nine parts, and the night 33 is equal to the day and the year is exactly as to its days three hundred and sixty-four. And the length of the day and of the night, and the shortness of the day and of the night arise-through the course 34 of the sun these distinctions are made (lit. ' they are separated '). So it comes that its course becomes 35 daily longer, and its course nightly shorter. And this is the law and the course of the sun, and his return as often as he returns sixty times and rises, i.e. the great luminary which is named the sun, for ever and ever. And that which (thus) rises is the great luminary, and is so named according to 37 its appearance, according as the Lord commanded. As he rises, so he sets and decreases not, and rests not, but runs day and night, and his light is sevenfold brighter than that of the moon; but as regards size they are both equal.

[Chapter 73]

1 And after this law I saw another law dealing with the smaller luminary, which is named the Moon. And her circumference is like the circumference of the heaven, and her chariot in which she rides is driven by the wind, and light is given to her in (definite) measure. And her rising and setting change every month: and her days are like the days of the sun, and when her light is uniform (i.e. full) it amounts to the seventh part of the light of the sun. And thus she rises. And her first phase in the east comes forth on the thirtieth morning: and on that day she becomes visible, and constitutes for you the first phase of the moon on the thirtieth day together with the sun in the portal where the sun rises. And the one half of her goes forth by a seventh part, and her whole circumference is empty, without light, with the exception of one-seventh part of it, (and) the 6 fourteenth part of her light. And when she receives one-seventh part of the half of her light, her light 7 amounts to one-seventh part and the half thereof. And she sets with the sun, and when the sun rises the moon rises with him and receives the half of one part of light, and in that night in the beginning of her morning [in the commencement of the lunar day] the moon sets with the sun, and 8 is invisible that night with the fourteen parts and the half of one of them. And she rises on that day with exactly a seventh part, and comes forth and recedes from the rising of the sun, and in her remaining days she becomes bright in the (remaining) thirteen parts.



Books of Enoch

GUANO said:

You guys have literally no idea what is going on in that book lol...

I agree it's inspired but it's not a place to find facts about the earth, the moon and the stars.

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Yes, it is.

yeshuasavedme said:

Yes, it is.

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No. It's not. I can personally prove that the stars, sun and moon don't go into portals...

Sanoy said:

The chapters which Yekcig is referring to in his objection is not a part of the book of the watchers. The section he is referring to is dated much later and is considered separate from the "book of the watchers". That section could be fictitious and not affect the authenticity of the book of the watchers.

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True enough. But I would make a couple of points for consideration:

(1) The Astronomical Book (chs 72-82) was found at Qumran, so I don't know why it would be discarded out of hand while maintaining the authenticity of other sections. If anything, you would have to discard The Book of Parables (chs 37-71) since it was not among the findings at Qumran.

(2) I'm curious if you would you accept the methods used by scholars to determine "authenticity?" Would you consistently apply the methods used for determining authorship and date across all of the "Book" of Enoch? I'm not sure how you could consistently apply those methods and maintain the book as "authentic," depending on what's meant by the term.