The blood of bulls and goats

[31gH9N.9.]

For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.
Hebrews 10:4

And he shall do with the bull as he did with the bull as the sin offering; thus shall he do with it. So the priest shall make atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them
Leviticus 4:20

This morning in our church Bible class we were studying from Hebrews the 10th chapter. A few different people asserted that the old law couldn't forgive sins based on verse 4. I ended up doing some reading and discovered that the OT does say that people could have their sins forgiven via an animal sacrifice. How is it then that in the book of Hebrews, the author can state that the blood of bulls and goats cannot take away sin?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.
Hebrews 10:4

And he shall do with the bull as he did with the bull as the sin offering; thus shall he do with it. So the priest shall make atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them
Leviticus 4:20

This morning in our church Bible class we were studying from Hebrews the 10th chapter. A few different people asserted that the old law couldn't forgive sins based on verse 4. I ended up doing some reading and discovered that the OT does say that people could have their sins forgiven via an animal sacrifice. How is it then that in the book of Hebrews, the author can state that the blood of bulls and goats cannot take away sin?

The forgiveness that came through the sacrifice of the bulls and goats lasted for one year, then it had to be done all over again year after year. This is what Hebrews mean about the blood of bulls and goats cannot take away sin. All it does is to cover it up for a year's duration at a time. The Psalmist praises God that his sin is covered. He never says that his sin is taken away permanently. Even David, a man after God's own heart, had to have his sins covered by the bulls and goals once a year.

But when Jesus died on the cross and shed His blood, it was one sacrifice once and for all. What the shedding of Christ's blood achieved was that every person who accepts Christ as Saviour, has his sinfulness taken away permanently and replaced with the Righteousness of Christ. Because Christ is God, His blood, inherited not from his mother Mary, but from The Holy Spirit, is all powerful to facilitate the total removal of sinfulness from all those who receive Christ as Saviour. The Scripture says that the blood of Christ cleanses from all sin. Not merely covering it for a year, but cleansing it permanently - as long as a believer continues to believe in and trust Christ as Saviour all his life.

 

[Soyeong]

For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.
Hebrews 10:4

And he shall do with the bull as he did with the bull as the sin offering; thus shall he do with it. So the priest shall make atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them
Leviticus 4:20

This morning in our church Bible class we were studying from Hebrews the 10th chapter. A few different people asserted that the old law couldn't forgive sins based on verse 4. I ended up doing some reading and discovered that the OT does say that people could have their sins forgiven via an animal sacrifice. How is it then that in the book of Hebrews, the author can state that the blood of bulls and goats cannot take away sin?

The issue is that taking away sins is not the same as forgiving them.

Hebrews 9:6-9 These preparations having thus been made, the priests go regularly into the first section, performing their ritual duties, 7 but into the second only the high priest goes, and he but once a year, and not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the unintentional sins of the people. 8 By this the Holy Spirit indicates that the way into the holy places is not yet opened as long as the first section is still standing 9 (which is symbolic for the present age).[d] According to this arrangement, gifts and sacrifices are offered that cannot perfect the conscience of the worshiper,

Hebrews 10:2-4 Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, since the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have any consciousness of sins? 3 But in these sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

Hebrews 10:22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

Having our unintentional sins forgiven or covered causes us to become reconciled to God, but did not give a clean conscience because of the knowledge of what we have done against Him, but through Christ he takes away our sins so that we can come before him with a clean conscience. In other words, Christ doesn't just forgive our sins, but makes it like we never sinned in the first place.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

The issue is that taking away sins is not the same as forgiving them.

Hebrews 9:6-9 These preparations having thus been made, the priests go regularly into the first section, performing their ritual duties, 7 but into the second only the high priest goes, and he but once a year, and not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the unintentional sins of the people. 8 By this the Holy Spirit indicates that the way into the holy places is not yet opened as long as the first section is still standing 9 (which is symbolic for the present age).[d] According to this arrangement, gifts and sacrifices are offered that cannot perfect the conscience of the worshiper,

Hebrews 10:2-4 Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, since the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have any consciousness of sins? 3 But in these sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

Hebrews 10:22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

Having our unintentional sins forgiven or covered causes us to become reconciled to God, but did not give a clean conscience because of the knowledge of what we have done against Him, but through Christ he takes away our sins so that we can come before him with a clean conscience. In other words, Christ doesn't just forgive our sins, but makes it like we never sinned in the first place.

Being a Gentile Christian, Jewish observances past or present mean nothing to me and have no relevance to my faith in Christ so there is no point describing them to me.

I do know, and I think that you agree in principle, that God takes our sin and buries them in the deepest sea of His forgetfulness and puts up a sign "No Fishing!"

Forgiving sins and taking them away means much the same to me. Forgiving is taking the sinner off the hook and there is no more consequences for sin. Jesus paid the full price and took the complete anger and wrath of God for the sin of every person who ever lived and who will ever live. This is not universalism by the way, because it is totally dependent on a person receiving Christ as Saviour. Those who continue to reject Christ are still dead in their sin and the facility of total forgiveness, cleansing and removal of their sin is suspended until they change their minds about Christ. Suspended and not withdrawn, because while they still live, the facility continues to be offered to them. But once they die, then the facility is lost to them and only Judgment is their expectation.

 

[Soyeong]

Being a Gentile Christian, Jewish observances past or present mean nothing to me and have no relevance to my faith in Christ so there is no point describing them to me.

All of God's observances are rich with teachings about Christ and how to have a relationship with him based on faith and love, by not concerning yourself with learning about them you are only depriving yourself of that richness. In John 5:46, Jesus said that Moses wrote about him, in Luke 24:27, Jesus began with Moses and the prophets interpreting to them all of the things in Scripture concerning himself, in Hebrews 10:7, the volume of the scroll is written about Jesus, and in Romans 10:4, the goal of the Law is a relationship with Messiah for righteousness for everyone who has faith. I recommend this study on Finding Messiah in the Torah because he is found everywhere and it is all about him:

Genesis- Messianic audio Torah teaching by Rabbi Stan Farr

I do know, and I think that you agree in principle, that God takes our sin and buries them in the deepest sea of His forgetfulness and puts up a sign "No Fishing!"

When Genesis 8:1 says that God remembered Noah, it is not saying that God had forgotten about him and remembered him just in time to save him, but rather it is speaking about Noah coming to the forefront of God's mind. Likewise, forgiving sin does not mean that God forgets that it happened, but that it no longer comes to mind. However, with the parable with the unmerciful servant in Matthew 18:21-35, it is possible for our full debt to be reinstated. Jesus also said that if we do not forgive others, then we will not be forgiven (Matthew 6:15).

Forgiving sins and taking them away means much the same to me. Forgiving is taking the sinner off the hook and there is no more consequences for sin. Jesus paid the full price and took the complete anger and wrath of God for the sin of every person who ever lived and who will ever live. This is not universalism by the way, because it is totally dependent on a person receiving Christ as Saviour. Those who continue to reject Christ are still dead in their sin and the facility of total forgiveness, cleansing and removal of their sin is suspended until they change their minds about Christ. Suspended and not withdrawn, because while they still live, the facility continues to be offered to them. But once they die, then the facility is lost to them and only Judgment is their expectation.

I agree that forgiving is taking the sinner off the hook, but while the blood of bulls and goats obtained forgiveness and reconciliation to God, it did not give someone a clean conscience. That is the point that is being made in the verses I cited and part of the reason why Christ is an superior offering.

 

[31gH9N.9.]

Thanks foe the replies you guys. Haven't come to a conclusion myself on the matter, but I did find another relevant scripture in my readings the other night.

Behold the Lamb of God, who taketh away the sins of the world - John the Baptist

 

[JackRT]

I think a wider question is why God required a blood sacrifice for sin.

Micah 6:6 With what shall I come before the Lord, And bow myself before the High God? Shall I come before Him with burnt offerings, With calves a year old? 7 Will the Lord be pleased with thousands of rams, Ten thousand rivers of oil? Shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, The fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? 8 He has shown you, O man, what is good; And what does the Lord require of you But to do justly, To love mercy, And to walk humbly with your God.

Sincere contrition seems sufficient.

 

[Soyeong]

I think a wider question is why God required a blood sacrifice for sin.

Micah 6:6 With what shall I come before the Lord, And bow myself before the High God? Shall I come before Him with burnt offerings, With calves a year old? 7 Will the Lord be pleased with thousands of rams, Ten thousand rivers of oil? Shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, The fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? 8 He has shown you, O man, what is good; And what does the Lord require of you But to do justly, To love mercy, And to walk humbly with your God.

Sincere contrition seems sufficient.

The point of all of God's commands is to teaching about Him, about how to reflect His attributes, and how to draw close into an intimate relationship with Him based on faith and love. For example, in Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that justice, mercy, and faith are weightier matters of the Law, so the Law has always been intended to teach us how to reflect that attributes of God. So the way to do justly, to love mercy, to act in faith, and to walk in God's ways is straightforwardly to follow His commands or instructions for how to do that (Deuteronomy 8:6). However, as the Pharisees were doing, it is possible to seek to obey God's instructions without acting out of justice, mercy, our desire to be in an intimate relationship with Him, and this is the point that is being made in Micah 6:6. It is for some to make the mistake of thinking that what God primarily wants is for us to make offerings to Him when the reality is that the offerings are just the means to what God wants, so someone who made an offering without repenting and drawing close to God was completely missing the whole point.