The Blessed Hope

iamthelordsforever said:

I appreciate your comments. The fact that the Pre-trib Rapture is so vehemently opposed should come as no surprise. Jesus said that in the last days people would give in to doctrines of demons. Since the emergent church movement, there are a multitude of troubling beliefs that have come to light. First to answer some of your points, I'm not sure what you mean by 'raptures'. However, I do find the 7 day correlation interesting. I believe that the shout is from Jesus calling us home. The Rapture, however, will be anything but secret. It will be the the most public and devastating event in the past couple thousand years. Now, to answer the Posttribbers, I applaud your desire to share what you believe in. I have many reasons why no other Rapture, or the lack there of, will work. This is just part 1 in a 3 part article I wrote awhile back. My main argument for any and all: godly living and imminence. No other view requires us to live Christ-centered lives and to be prepared at any time. None other than the Pretrib view allows Jesus to return at any moment. I have read through the arguments for and against all views, and can understand why you could believe them. But, they are false when faced with those two requirements set down in Scripture. Thank you all! And God bless.

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There are 2 distinct passages in Paul's letters that mention " being caught up" ( rapture) . One is in 1 thes 4:13-18. It is the trump of God and the dead in Christ will raise first and those remaining will be caught up together with them in the clouds. It will take everyone by surprise. The second passage is 1 cor 15:51-53. It mentions that we shall be changed in a moment in a twinkling of an eye at the last trump. This last trump mentioned in the scripture means so many things to different people. I have done a study on the feasts of Israel on this forum that explains the prophecies of Jesus 1st coming and how they were fill filled to the exact day. The second coming prophecies will also follow suit. To fully understand the timing of these 2 distinct rapture passages, one must learn Old Testament prophecies and how it all relates to the New Testament . I believe in a pre- trib rapture and a gathering of the elect. The timing of these can be debated over and over without getting anywhere. Everyone should always search the scripture for them self instead of believing other teachers that may know the truth or may be deceiving . We have The Word of God and our ultimate teacher The Holy Spirit!

Handmaid for Jesus said:

You are completely correct of course. But, you will never get these people to believe it. The only thing that may convince them is the actual rapture happening. Even so, come Lord Jesus.

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ditto Handmaid

Bible2;63013936]

Revelation 4:1 refers to only John the apostle, by himself, making an only-temporary visit up to the third heaven at one point during his lifetime back in the first century AD, just as 2 Corinthians 12:2 refers to only Paul the apostle, by himself, making an only-temporary visit up to the third heaven at one point during his lifetime back in the first century AD. Neither verse refers to the future rapture of the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

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We see a door open in heaven that no man can shut in Rev 3 and then we see the door in Rev 4. But your real problem is this verse in Rev 5. We have men in heaven before the seals are open.

Rev 5
3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

You have a real problem here. Your only hope is to put your head in the sand and pretend it didn't happen. Or post a bunch of meaningless scriptures to change the subject. I certainly can't see you be able to address then men in heaven....who got there pre trib.

Jesus' second coming and the rapture of the church won't be secret,

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Well, there is a difference between the rapture and second coming so that pretty much shuts down that argument.

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God" (1 Thes. 4:16),

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The shout is in heaven by the archangel, and the trump of God is the voice of God.

"with a great sound of a trumpet" (Mt. 24:31).

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This is the "last trump" not the trump of God.

And "as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be" (Mt. 24:27,43-44).

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Ok

"Behold, I come as a thief" (Rev. 16:15), "Behold, he cometh with clouds [1 Thes. 4:17]; and every eye shall see him" (Rev. 1:7).

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Every eye shall see him at the gathering, but not the pre trib rapture.

If you think that the Flood is analogous to the tribulation (instead of the second coming), and that days are analogous to years, are you saying that the rapture will occur seven years before the tribulation? If so, why would that be, instead of the same day that the tribulation starts, like Noah went into the ark (for the last time) "in the selfsame day" that the Flood started (Genesis 7:11-17)? Luke 17:27 similarly shows that the Flood started the same day that Noah entered the ark (for the last time).

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Noah was commanded to enter the ark. Noah entered the ark. Noah, his family and all the animals entered the ark on the same self day........that would be the day he was told to enter the ark.......not the day of the flood. Luke 17 only says that they ate and married until the day that Noah entered the ark. That day was 7 days before the flood. We don't know what was happening the day Noah entered the ark....was there earth quakes before the fountain of the deep opened. What the sky changing and was was there thunder and lightning the day Noah entered?

Gen 7
9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.
10 And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.

Or, if you think that the Flood is analogous to the second coming, then why can't the rapture (the gathering together of the church) be the same day as the second coming, immediately after the future tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18

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Because we have a Pentecost harvest and a Feast of Trumpets harvest. And Noah was in the ark 7 days before the flood.

Genesis 7:2-10 shows that Noah spent the seven days before the Flood gathering all the different animals into the ark.

Noah is told to enter the ark in verse 1. We see he entered in verse 9 and we see that 7 days later the flood was upon the earth. Your explanation is impossible because we see that Noah, his family and animals enter the ark on the same self day. Noah would not wait 7 days to enter the ark if he was instructed to enter the ark in verse 1
Gen 7
1 And the Lord said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.
2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.
3 Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.
4 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.
5 And Noah did according unto all that the Lord commanded him.
6 And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth.
7 And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood.
8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth,
9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.
10 And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.

So Genesis 7:11-17 means simply that the entering of all the animals was completed on the same day that the Flood started.

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Strange that it would say.........Noah entered the ark....and it came to pass 7 days later............



Since the analogy in Luke 17:26-37 and Matthew 24:37-41 compares the Flood to the second coming (Luke 17:30, Matthew 24:37b,39b), which Jesus had just finished saying will not happen until immediately after the future tribulation

Exactly my point.......Noah enters the ark 7 days before the flood. The door to the ark is shut. However........the very day Lot leaves Sodom destruction comes.

Two seperate events.

iamthelordsforever said:

I appreciate your comments. The fact that the Pre-trib Rapture is so vehemently opposed should come as no surprise. Jesus said that in the last days people would give in to doctrines of demons. Since the emergent church movement, there are a multitude of troubling beliefs that have come to light. First to answer some of your points, I'm not sure what you mean by 'raptures'. However, I do find the 7 day correlation interesting. I believe that the shout is from Jesus calling us home. The Rapture, however, will be anything but secret. It will be the the most public and devastating event in the past couple thousand years. Now, to answer the Posttribbers, I applaud your desire to share what you believe in. I have many reasons why no other Rapture, or the lack there of, will work. This is just part 1 in a 3 part article I wrote awhile back. My main argument for any and all: godly living and imminence. No other view requires us to live Christ-centered lives and to be prepared at any time. None other than the Pretrib view allows Jesus to return at any moment. I have read through the arguments for and against all views, and can understand why you could believe them. But, they are false when faced with those two requirements set down in Scripture. Thank you all! And God bless.

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Look forward to your posts. I will post a few reasons as to why the rapture is secret later.

Choose Wisely said in post 23:

We see a door open in heaven that no man can shut in Rev 3 . . .

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The seven epistles to seven churches in Revelation chapters 2-3 were sent to seven literal, first century AD local church congregations in seven cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) (what is now Western Turkey).

In Revelation 3:8, the "open door" meant that Jesus had made it so that the church congregation in the ancient city of Philadelphia could preach the gospel to the people living in that city (cf. 2 Corinthians 2:12, Colossians 4:3; 1 Corinthians 16:9).

Choose Wisely said in post 23:

We have men in heaven before the seals are open.

Rev 5
3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

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They can be heaven by dying (2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23).

Choose Wisely said in post 23:

Well, there is a difference between the rapture and second coming . . .

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The rapture won't happen until the second coming. For it's only at Jesus' second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30) that the church will be resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31), and not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20), but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

Choose Wisely said in post 23:

This is the "last trump" not the trump of God.

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Matthew 24:31 is both, and it's after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31).

Choose Wisely said in post 23:

Every eye shall see him at the gathering, but not the pre trib rapture.

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Note that no verse requires a pre-trib rapture, or a secret coming of Jesus. And the gathering is the rapture (2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31; 1 Thessalonians 4:17).

Choose Wisely said in post 23:

Noah, his family and all the animals entered the ark on the same self day........that would be the day he was told to enter the ark.......not the day of the flood.

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It was the day of the Flood (Genesis 7:11-13, Luke 17:27).

Choose Wisely said in post 23:

Gen 7
9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.
10 And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.

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That doesn't say that Noah entered the ark (for the last time) seven days before the Flood. It just means that he spent the seven days before the Flood loading the animals onto the ark.

Choose Wisely said in post 23:

Because we have a Pentecost harvest and a Feast of Trumpets harvest.

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What verses are you thinking of?

zeke37 said in post 13:

there is no UP in the Greek manuscripts in 1Thes4.
it's seized

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There doesn't have to be an "up" in 1 Thes. 4:17's original Greek for it to mean "up", for the clouds and the air are up. 1 Thes. 4:17's original Greek word (harpazo, G0726) translated as "caught up" can also be used to refer to people being taken to where God's throne is (Rev. 12:5), which is "up" in heaven (Rev. 4:1-2), just as the two witnesses will ascend "up" to heaven (Rev. 11:12).

zeke37 said in post 13:

just like Mat24/Mar13, 1Cor15, Rev11

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The future raising of the two witnesses from the dead (Revelation 11:11) won't occur at the church's resurrection into immortality at Jesus' second coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53), but will be like, for example, the past resuscitation of the mortal bodies of Lazarus and Tabitha (John 11:43-44, Acts 9:36-40). And the future ascension of the two witnesses "up" into heaven (Revelation 11:12) won't occur at the church's rapture at the second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), but will be like, for example, the past ascension of the mortal bodies of Enoch and Elijah into heaven (Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:11).

For the two witnesses' resuscitation and ascension will occur at one point during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, as part of its second woe/sixth trumpet (Revelation 11:14, Revelation 9:12-13), before the tribulation's seventh trumpet sounds (Revelation 11:15). And then out of the seventh trumpet's heavenly temple opening will come the seven plagues of the seven vials (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1), the tribulation's final stage (Revelation 16). But the church's resurrection into immortality and its being raptured (gathered together to Jesus) won't occur until Jesus' second coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), which won't occur until after the entire tribulation is over (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), after the seventh vial has been completed (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6).

Also, the two witnesses, like Enoch and Elijah did (and also like the apostles Paul and John each did, temporarily, at one point during their lifetimes: 2 Corinthians 12:2,7, Revelation 4:1-2), will ascend "up" all the way into the third heaven (Revelation 11:12). But the church will be raptured only as high as the clouds of the sky (the first heaven) to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

zeke37 said in post 13:

the rising or Resurrection,
is Christ bringing the righteous dead with Him, from Heaven,
at His Coming at the last day
and "raising" them back to life here on earth as promised
in their spiritual body, not flesh
...see 1Cor15

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When obedient believers' bodies will be raised/resurrected into spiritual/heavenly bodies (1 Corinthians 15:44-49), they will still be fleshly bodies, but no longer "natural" (that is, mortal) fleshly bodies (1 Corinthians 15:44,53). Instead, they will be immortal fleshly bodies like Jesus was raised/resurrected into (Luke 24:39; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Romans 8:23-25) by the spiritual/heavenly power of the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:11,23-25, Romans 1:4; 1 Corinthians 15:44).

zeke37 said in post 13:

here's the cloud

Mat24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
(mark adds, gather His elect from heaven and earth)

Heb12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Rev1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

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Heb. 12:1 refers to a singular, already-existing, and only-figurative "cloud" of only-Old Testament witnesses (Heb. 11), whereas 1 Thes. 4:17 (like Mt. 24:30 and Rev. 1:7) refers to plural, not-yet-existing, clouds which will be literal, like Lk. 9:34's literal cloud (up on a mountain: Lk. 9:28). But the clouds of 1 Thes. 4:17, Mt. 24:30, and Rev. 1:7 will be up in the sky (the first heaven), the literal air, like Acts 1:9's literal cloud was "up" in the sky, and like the literal cloud in which the two witnesses will ascend bodily "up" to heaven (Rev. 11:12).

At his second coming, Jesus will be literally seen in literal clouds (Rev. 1:7, Mt. 24:30), just as lightning is seen in literal clouds (Mt. 24:27). But 1 Thes. 4:17's literal clouds could cover the raptured church in the sky from the view of the world while the church is being judged by the just-returned Jesus (Ps. 50:3-5, cf. Mk. 13:27), and then the obedient part of the church gets married to the just-returned Jesus (Rev. 19:7-8, Mt. 25:1-12), in the sky (the first heaven) (Rev. 19:14).

zeke37 said in post 13:

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A PRE TRIB RAPTURE
AND BELIEVING IN ONE, WILL MAKE YOU RIPE FOR DECEPTION DURING THE END TIMES TEST.

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Or possibly ripe for apostasy.

The mistaken idea of a pre-tribulation rapture is dangerous because when no pre-tribulation rapture occurs, and pre-trib believers begin to suffer in the tribulation, they could think that God has somehow been defeated by Satan, that Satan by his power has caused a pre-trib rapture not to happen despite God wanting one to. Or they could think that God has cruelly broken his (supposed) promise, that he has pulled the rug out from under them, that he cruelly lied to them and must now be laughing at their surprise and suffering (Proverbs 1:26), so that in their rage they could curse God and commit apostasy during the tribulation (Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).

And even if they instead rightly think, "Okay, we must have just been mistaken in thinking that the rapture was supposed to be pre-trib. Satan hasn't defeated God, and God didn't lie to us", nonetheless, because they had held so strongly to the pre-trib idea for so long, their minds could be completely unprepared to face the long tribulation that lies ahead of them (just as holding too strongly to the mistaken idea of preterism, or historicism, or symbolicism, or spiritualism, could leave some believers less prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation). The Bible gives believers clear warning ahead of time about everything that they are going to have to face during the future tribulation (Mark 13:23, Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Revelation 1:1, Revelation 22:16), so that they can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (1 Peter 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that's coming (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and so that they can be better prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation with patience and faith to the end (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), that is, until death or until Jesus returns immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

iamthelordsforever said in post 14:

I believe that the shout is from Jesus calling us home.

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By "home" do you mean the third heaven (2 Cor. 12:2b)? If so, note that no scripture requires that believers will be raptured any higher than the clouds of the sky (the first heaven) to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his second coming (1 Thes. 4:15-17). After that meeting, in which the church will be judged by Jesus (Ps. 50:3-5, cf. Mk. 13:27) and the obedient part of the church will be married to Jesus (Rev. 19:7, Mt. 25:1-13), the obedient part of the church will come back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Rev. 19:15-21) and will reign on the earth with him for a thousand years (Rev. 20:4-6, Rev. 5:10, Rev. 2:26-29). Then, after the thousand years and subsequent events are over (Rev. 20:7-15, Ezek. chapters 38-39), the obedient part of the church will live on the new earth with God the Father and Jesus in the city of New Jerusalem (Revelation chapters 21-22).

iamthelordsforever said in post 14:

No other view requires us to live Christ-centered lives and to be prepared at any time.

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The Lord's return can't occur at any time, but will occur "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31). But even when we know this truth, we still need to live each day knowing that any of us could die at any time (Luke 12:20, James 4:14).

Also, believers, no matter what their rapture-timing view, need to be obedient now if they want to spiritually endure to the end during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:13). For only obedient believers will have their spiritual houses on the rock, so that they will endure the coming storm (Matthew 7:24-25). Disobedient believers will have their spiritual houses on the sand, so that they will fall away during the storm (Matthew 7:26-27). They will become part of the falling away, the apostasy (2 Thessalonians 2:3), the departure from the faith (1 Timothy 4:1), which will occur during the future tribulation (Matthew 24:9-13; compare Isaiah 8:21-22), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).

But what about those believers who, even though they may be obedient in their actions now, are holding so strongly mentally to the mistaken pre-tribulation rapture idea or to the mistaken mid-tribulation rapture idea that they could be less prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation in its entirety?

As an analogy of this mental preparation, imagine that some kids were at a summer camp and their counselor told them: "Tomorrow there's going to be a long, hard hike". The kids walked away and started talking among themselves. One of them said: "Well, he didn't say that we all have to go on that hike, right?" And a second kid said: "And he didn't say that we all have to go the whole distance". But a third kid said: "I'm pretty sure that he meant the hike's whole distance is for all of us. He didn't say that there's going to be a long, hard hike for only some of us, and a day of goofing off, or only a short, easy hike for others of us". But the first kid answered: "Nah, we don't have to go on that hike. I'm going fishing tomorrow". And the second kid answered: "We all don't have to go the whole distance". But the third kid answered: "Don't be so sure, you two. I'm going to bed early, so I'll be all fresh and ready for the whole distance of the hike".

The next day, at the morning camp meeting, the first kid brought his fishing pole and was all set for a day of fishing. But the third kid brought his sturdy hiking boots and a big canteen of water and was all mentally prepared for a long day of hard hiking. The counselor then told the kids: "Okay, in a few minutes we're all going to start on the hike I told you about, so make sure you've got everything you need". The first kid felt sick to his stomach when he heard that. He dropped his fishing pole and sat down on the ground and started crying like a baby. He just couldn't imagine starting on a long, hard hike after he'd been all set for a day of just sitting around fishing. But he was forced to go on the whole hike anyway, and this made him and the second kid (who thought that he wouldn't have to go the whole distance) so mad at the counselor that they grumbled against him to the other kids during the hike, cursing him out as a cruel taskmaster (Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21).

But the third kid took the whole hike in stride (Revelation 14:12, Revelation 13:10), and stuck up for the counselor the whole time, even though the third kid suffered awfully from blisters during the hike. The counselor, even though he was at the head of the hiking line, could overhear what the kids said behind him. After the hike was over, he made sure to reward the third kid by giving him as a gift the counselor's own fishing pole, and by making sure that the third kid was assigned day after day to only the most enviable camp duties, like getting to build and light the nightly campfire, and getting to make the evening camp announcements over the camp's PA system. But the counselor made sure to assign the first and second kids to the worst kitchen- and latrine-cleaning duties day after day.

The rapture is a message of hope!! Why does it say" comfort one another with these words" 1 thes 4, if we are looking for the tribulation instead of our blessed hope! The 2nd coming and the rapture are 2 different events. One, Jesus comes for His own, the other, He comes at the end of the tribulation. That will be a time for judgement and a time for the gathering of the elect who are saved from the judgement . More on the elect and who they are later.

bibletruth469 said:

The rapture is a message of hope!! Why does it say" comfort one another with these words" 1 thes 4, if we are looking for the tribulation instead of our blessed hope! The 2nd coming and the rapture are 2 different events. One, Jesus comes for His own, the other, He comes at the end of the tribulation. That will be a time for judgement and a time for the gathering of the elect who are saved from the judgement . More on the elect and who they are later.

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Please don't?

The 'comfort one another' was for a group that thought that the day of the lord had already happened. If your group has the same problem, use the passage. If not, there is no reason to. the blessed hope is not the timing of a rapture, if it is structured that way. The blessed hope is already in hand: it is that we are justified; who can condemn us? (Rom 8, Titus 2).

THe reason we don't value the actual blessed hope of TItus 2 is that we have so little appreciation for the need for justification from sins. We don't know the sermon of acts 13, and so our sense of need, our understanding of David's dilemma, and our knowledge of the fuutre of ISrael is completely future-warped. It is as though 'salvation' means de-materialization when the world gets rough, but God has stated it confusingly, so we have this incessant debate, which is a non-debate, about how much we get to escape. It is a completely surreal treatment of CHristianity, which is not found in the NT.

Bible2, old english is not a source for understanding a text that predates the old english by some 1700 years. the greek term is a 'warm familiar greeting and the emotional response it evokes in hearer.' WE can compliment old english for keeping that intact, which is more than we can say for the Lindsay generation which took the emotion evoked to mean a mechanical event (the removal of bodies). (It is so typically modern to take a strong emotion and turn it into an objective event!)

MT 24:23 is about the 1st cnetury calamity. Mt 24 doesnt' take up the end of the world until v29, for the end of t he world was expected quickly after the DofJ. But Mt 24 also allows for only the Father to decide when it would end, and He has decided not.

YOur characters have some truth to them (there were people who made deceptive claims about a victorious messiah running all around 1st century Israel), but by being futurist and raptur-centric, you have lost your grip on the direct, immediate meaning of Mt 24 & //s. There is no reason to figure out (Our) future first, nor the unstated 'rapture' first, when reading the passage. The first thing to figure out is how the answers to the disciples questions were true in the immediate, 1st century setting, which is where any normal reading of the answers would go. Maybe something will replicate in the distant future, maybe not, but it has to at least look like what happened there.

Bible2 said:

There doesn't have to be an "up" in 1 Thes. 4:17's original Greek for it to mean "up", for the clouds and the air are up. 1 Thes. 4:17's original Greek word (harpazo, G0726) translated as "caught up" can also be used to refer to people being taken to where God's throne is (Rev. 12:5), which is "up" in heaven (Rev. 4:1-2), just as the two witnesses will ascend "up" to heaven (Rev. 11:12).

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no apple in Gen3, but folks will fight you on that too
the cloud is not literal,
the air is not atmosphere,
up is not mentioned in the manuscripts
Jesus is Coming down here to gather us when He lands on Mt Zion
not before then

The future raising of the two witnesses from the dead (Revelation 11:11) won't occur at the church's resurrection into immortality at Jesus' second coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53), but will be like, for example, the past resuscitation of the mortal bodies of Lazarus and Tabitha (John 11:43-44, Acts 9:36-40).

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huh?
mortal?

1John32 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

is He mortal?

Phil3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

And the future ascension of the two witnesses "up" into heaven (Revelation 11:12) won't occur at the church's rapture at the second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), but will be like, for example, the past ascension of the mortal bodies of Enoch and Elijah into heaven (Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:11).

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huh? it happens at the cusp...
the 2nd woe is the trib, the 3rd is the wrath of God

For the two witnesses' resuscitation and ascension will occur at one point during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, as part of its second woe/sixth trumpet (Revelation 11:14, Revelation 9:12-13), before the tribulation's seventh trumpet sounds (Revelation 11:15).

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ya they die 3 days before....
they are raised at the last hour, the cusp of the 7th trump
which lines up with John6 and 11's last day
and the 7th trumps "time of the dead"

And then out of the seventh trumpet's heavenly temple opening will come the seven plagues of the seven vials (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1), the tribulation's final stage (Revelation 16).

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the 7th trump and vials study, timeline wise, is one that I am still working on

But the church's resurrection into immortality and its being raptured (gathered together to Jesus) won't occur until Jesus' second coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), which won't occur until after the entire tribulation is over (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), after the seventh vial has been completed (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6).

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again, that's debatable
read the 7th trump's descriptions and it seems like He's here then, and the dead are raised.


it being wrath time, shows that He is here to pour it
because in Rev19, Christ is leaving heaven to come here,
and He still has the wrath of God with Him

it is not yet poured out.
He has to be here to pour out the Wrath of God

Also, the two witnesses, like Enoch and Elijah did (and also like the apostles Paul and John each did, temporarily, at one point during their lifetimes: 2 Corinthians 12:2,7, Revelation 4:1-2), will ascend "up" all the way into the third heaven (Revelation 11:12). But the church will be raptured only as high as the clouds of the sky (the first heaven) to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

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Rev11 does not say 3rd heaven
Imo 1-2-3 heavens speaks of the ages....
before, present, future

they went to the future or eternity age of heaven
the reward part.

When obedient believers' bodies will be raised/resurrected into spiritual/heavenly bodies (1 Corinthians 15:44-49), they will still be fleshly bodies, but no longer "natural" (that is, mortal) fleshly bodies (1 Corinthians 15:44,53). Instead, they will be immortal fleshly bodies like Jesus was raised/resurrected into (Luke 24:39; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Romans 8:23-25) by the spiritual/heavenly power of the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:11,23-25, Romans 1:4; 1 Corinthians 15:44).

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1Cor15 disagrees with you, and mentions spiritual body many times over.
spiritual body, not natural...

Heb. 12:1 refers to a singular, already-existing, and only-figurative "cloud" of only-Old Testament witnesses (Heb. 11), whereas 1 Thes. 4:17 (like Mt. 24:30 and Rev. 1:7) refers to plural, not-yet-existing, clouds which will be literal, like Lk. 9:34's literal cloud (up on a mountain: Lk. 9:28). But the clouds of 1 Thes. 4:17, Mt. 24:30, and Rev. 1:7 will be up in the sky (the first heaven), the literal air, like Acts 1:9's literal cloud was "up" in the sky, and like the literal cloud in which the two witnesses will ascend bodily "up" to heaven (Rev. 11:12).

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i'll disagree. the Clouds are the past righteous.
do the righteous come with Him at His Coming or not?
if so, then the clouds that Paul speaks of are not literal clouds.
remember that every eye shall see Him coming...
no hiding His Glory behind rain clouds...

coming with literal rainclouds would accomplish nothing...no point.
but coming with the righteous dead, to raise them,
makes perfect sense and agrees with ALL of scripture

it is my opinion that a cloud of angels received Him in Acts1,
whether the apostles saw it as angels or whether the event was too high up to note the difference.

a cloud of birds or locusts looks like a literal cloud from far away

At his second coming, Jesus will be literally seen in literal clouds (Rev. 1:7, Mt. 24:30), just as lightning is seen in literal clouds (Mt. 24:27).

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but every eye shall see Him Coming IN the Clouds of heaven, even the jews
no hiding
see the 6th seal...folks see Him Coming and try to hide in mountains from His wrath

But 1 Thes. 4:17's literal clouds could cover the raptured church in the sky from the view of the world while the church is being judged by the just-returned Jesus (Ps. 50:3-5, cf. Mk. 13:27), and then the obedient part of the church gets married to the just-returned Jesus (Rev. 19:7-8, Mt. 25:1-12), in the sky (the first heaven) (Rev. 19:14).

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what?
He lands on earth, and makes a way for His election to get to Him

the wedding feast is on earth...
see Rev19's end, or Zec14's descriptions

Or possibly ripe for apostasy.

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same thing...the end time test involves the apostasy obviously.
when the apostate worship the beast

The mistaken idea of a pre-tribulation rapture is dangerous because when no pre-tribulation rapture occurs, and pre-trib believers begin to suffer in the tribulation, they could think that God has somehow been defeated by Satan, that Satan by his power has caused a pre-trib rapture not to happen despite God wanting one to. Or they could think that God has cruelly broken his (supposed) promise, that he has pulled the rug out from under them, that he cruelly lied to them and must now be laughing at their surprise and suffering (Proverbs 1:26), so that in their rage they could curse God and commit apostasy during the tribulation (Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).

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personally, I don't even think they will know we are in the season
they will be perfectly fooled, and worship another as God/Jesus

they won't even know they are deceived
until they see the Lord Coming with the righteous clouds of heaven

And even if they instead rightly think, "Okay, we must have just been mistaken in thinking that the rapture was supposed to be pre-trib. Satan hasn't defeated God, and God didn't lie to us", nonetheless, because they had held so strongly to the pre-trib idea for so long, their minds could be completely unprepared to face the long tribulation that lies ahead of them (just as holding too strongly to the mistaken idea of preterism, or historicism, or symbolicism, or spiritualism, could leave some believers less prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation). The Bible gives believers clear warning ahead of time about everything that they are going to have to face during the future tribulation (Mark 13:23, Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Revelation 1:1, Revelation 22:16), so that they can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (1 Peter 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that's coming (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and so that they can be better prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation with patience and faith to the end (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), that is, until death or until Jesus returns immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

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I don't believe the beast can literally kill anyone
I think the threat is there, but just that...a threat

"worship me because i'm God...anyone that doesn't, gets the 2nd death"
good threat.

Rev9 seem to suggest that the king and the locusts, can't kill, just deceive
like with Job

but when the 2 witnesses are killed
that means that Satan breaks God's command

and 3 days later, The Lord comes back forever and binds him for the Mill

iamthelordsforever said:

"For God has NOT appointed us to WRATH, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ."
1Thessalonians 5:9

These verses alone provide the proof we need, but, if you require logic, why would our sins be paid by Jesus but still need to be punished in the tribulation? Does not make sense huh?

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the trib is NOT the wrath of God,
a thing that is very easily determined upon study of Rev

the wrath of God comes after the trib

I have seen this thing (wrath vs. trib) discussed many times here and it highlights the problem of rapture-centric thinking. Thess. letters are thee arliest in the NT. They had to do with the 1st century calamity, in which the end of t he world was expected right after the DofJ. We know this (about the NT community i n general) because in the 2nd, there are people who thought that the day of the Lord had already happened. It was expected very soon (otherwise why make immediate warnings about it in 1 Th 5?). The rumor may have started with some believers saying the 'day of the Lord' had actually occurred in the Gospel (per Rom 3--which has a certain theological truth to it) but either way it was expected soon.

The CHristians in Judea were given warnings by Christ & the apostles about when to leave that sinking ship. The ones at Thess did not need any futher word about their question because the end of the world did not come as expected. The whole question is past relevance now because the end of the world did not come as soon as expected. The 'wrath' that Paul was refering to in I th 2 was in terms of t hose events and matches Lk 21. THere also may have been some Christians who could not believe such a thing would happen to Jerusalem, who believed there would be 'peace and safety,' and decided to stay.

rapture is sure,
but pre trib rapture is a fantasy

Handmaid for Jesus said:

You are completely correct of course. But, you will never get these people to believe it. The only thing that may convince them is the actual rapture happening. Even so, come Lord Jesus.

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there is no prophecy in scripture to begin with about this event (pretrib rapture), so there's no need to waste time hoping for something that isn't going to happen or convince anyone anyway, it's all in vain to put your hopes in a doctrine built on assumptions...........nothing but lies from satan

iamthelordsforever said:

"For God has NOT appointed us to WRATH, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ."
1Thessalonians 5:9

These verses alone provide the proof we need, but, if you require logic, why would our sins be paid by Jesus but still need to be punished in the tribulation? Does not make sense huh?

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your premise is based on the pretrib assumption that tribulation is God's wrath...........this isn't taught in scripture........Christ himself said if they persecute the master they're going to persecute the servant also..........God is not punishing his saints during triblation, satan is , he's the one attempting to destroy those who keep God's commandments and have the testimony of Jesus, he knows he has a short time left

God will perform the opposite of punishing his saints during tribulation , for those watchful saints who keep those warnings in mind a place of safety is prepared by God for them where satan cannot harm them (Rev 12) Christ taught to pray always that you may be accounted worthy to escape all these things, again to this place that God will prepare for his saints.........there will some lukewarm saints not heeding the warnings and will be faced with death since they still keep God's comandments and will refuse to worship the beast...........they will be martyred but they will not perish because they have the promise of resurrection through Christ

God's wrath is poured out because of what the wicked do during tribulation, ie, worship the beast, make war, destroying the earth, martyring saints etc..............there are even a few examples that after certain plagues are poured out on them they don't repent of their sins still blaspheming God in heaven

God is not the cause of this worst time of trouble in mankind's history, satan is, giving power to the beast , false prophet and Babylon the harlot and them coming to very point of annihilating all life that God created from the earth.........God's wrath (anger) is kindled because of their choices and actions