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The birth of Christ

I believe...

  • Christ was born on December 25th

  • The date of his birth is unknown

  • He never existed

  • You convinced me to question a lot of things


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Science is Fact

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I have respect for theists more than a lot of atheists for a lot of reason. But, one thing that I really find repulsive and distasteful is christian pastors saying jesuwas born on the 25th of December like its fact. A lot of people say his birthday was on Christmas with very highest of confidence. I ask myself, are these the type of christians that give atheist the opinion that all christians believe what they are told with unquestioning faith?

Now, I am very sure that pastors are people very immense credibility in the christian community, and what they say is usually believed with... unquestioning belief. So, when they say stuff like, "Christmas, the day jesus was born!" I am disgusted that these pastors basically represent the christian community, and these are the type of people that give religion a bad name.

Before I continue posting at this website... I want to know, how many of you believe christ was born on 25th of December and where did you get yoru information? If someone can tell me where in the bible I can find that it says christ was born on Christmas, I will apologize.
 

Sketcher

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In my Christian circles, which are conservative ones, we don't insist that Jesus was born on December 25th. We do insist that Jesus was born, and December 25th happens to be the day that we celebrate it. However, I did read a decent case for Jesus actually being born around that time of the year, when you time it from John the Baptist's conception and assume a nine month pregnancy. The important thing though, is that Jesus was born, and that he was/is what Scripture claims him to be.
 
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Jason Engwer

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Science is Fact wrote:

"So, when they say stuff like, 'Christmas, the day jesus was born!' I am disgusted that these pastors basically represent the christian community, and these are the type of people that give religion a bad name."

You might be misunderstanding what you're hearing. I doubt that many pastors would make a comment like the one you're describing with the intended meaning you're drawing from it. They're probably saying that Christmas celebrates the day Jesus was born. People often speak as if one thing is something else when they mean that one thing represents something else.

The earliest extant reference we have to December 25 associated with Jesus' birth seems to be in the third century. The date was adopted in different parts of the world at different times and for different reasons. If you're interested in reading more about the origins of using that date in relation to Jesus' birth, see here. The following are some of Joseph Kelly's comments on the subject:

"In 274 Aurelian [a Roman emperor] instituted the cult of Sol Invictus, the Unconquered Sun....Aurelian made December 25, the winter solstice, the birthday of Sol Invictus and thus a major feast day throughout the Roman Empire....In 336 the local church at Rome proclaimed December 25 as the dies natalis Christi, 'the natal day of Christ,' that is, his birthday. The document which says this does not justify or explain it. It merely says that this is the day, that is, the date had been accepted by the Roman church some time before and since everyone knew about it, discussion of the date was not necessary. But how long before 336 was the date for Christmas accepted? Historians have wondered whether the Christians in the late third century had waged a propaganda war against Aurelian, promoting their Sun of Righteousness [Jesus in the context of Malachi 4:2], the Sol Iustitiae against his Unconquered Sun, the Sol Invictus....We should also recall that Sextus Julius Africanus [a Christian who wrote during the first half of the third century] had already proposed December 25 as the date of Christ's birth. Aurelian's opponents may have plausibly reasoned that if the date already existed [in Christian circles], why not use it against the imperial cult of the Sun?...The second piece of evidence for a third-century propaganda struggle is a work of art, a mosaic on the ceiling of a tomb of the family Julii and now preserved in the necropolis (Greek for 'city of the dead') under St. Peter's basilica in Rome. It portrays Christ driving a chariot through the heavens, just as the pagan sun god Helios did, and Jesus, like the god, has rays of light emanating from his head....They date the mosaic to the late third century, that is, at the time when the emperor Aurelian was promoting the cult of the Unconquered Sun. Significantly, this is the only ancient portrayal of Christ as the sun. Historians find it impossible to believe that this portrayal was just coincidentally produced in the city of Rome at the very time when the pagans were promoting the cult of their sun." (The Origins Of Christmas [Collegeville, Minnesota: Liturgical Press, 2004], pp. 65-68)

William Tighe writes:

"Rather, the pagan festival of the 'Birth of the Unconquered Son' instituted by the Roman Emperor Aurelian on 25 December 274, was almost certainly an attempt to create a pagan alternative to a date that was already of some significance to Roman Christians. Thus the 'pagan origins of Christmas' is a myth without historical substance....Thus, December 25th as the date of the Christ’s birth appears to owe nothing whatsoever to pagan influences upon the practice of the Church during or after Constantine’s time. It is wholly unlikely to have been the actual date of Christ’s birth, but it arose entirely from the efforts of early Latin Christians to determine the historical date of Christ’s death. And the pagan feast which the Emperor Aurelian instituted on that date in the year 274 was not only an effort to use the winter solstice to make a political statement, but also almost certainly an attempt to give a pagan significance to a date already of importance to Roman Christians. The Christians, in turn, could at a later date re-appropriate the pagan 'Birth of the Unconquered Sun' to refer, on the occasion of the birth of Christ, to the rising of the 'Sun of Salvation' or the 'Sun of Justice.'"

Regarding the evidence for events surrounding Jesus' birth in general, see here.
 
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ProfessorJ

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See... look at it from the point of view of the early organized church. You're trying to gain supporters for what you believe is true, so tie it inot their religion. Christmas is set on the same day as an old pagan holiday, much the same that Easter was set on the day of a spring pagan holiday, and all saint's day was matched to samhain.
 
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ANM29

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Dec 25 is the day a pagan god was celebrated and it was incorporated into the Catholic church as the day that we celebrate the birth of our King, Jesus.

It is not a day all Christians insists was his birthday. I am not sure if anybody knows for sure when he born, tradition says the month of September. It really does not matter what day he was born or even if we celebrate it on a pagans day of celebration. I believe God has overlooked this because of the ignorance of many about it anyway. It does not matter, I celebrate him everyday I wake up and I truly do love Christmas time.:)
 
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AMR

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I have respect for theists more than a lot of atheists for a lot of reason. But, one thing that I really find repulsive and distasteful is christian pastors saying jesuwas born on the 25th of December like its fact.
Is this your line in the sand with respect to Christianity? No doubt you accept Planck's Constant as fact out to fifty digits, no? Sigh. All you have done is expose how ill-formed your epistemologies really are.

AMR
 
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Bible2

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Science is Fact posted in message #1 of this thread:

pastors are people very immense credibility in the christian
community, and what they say is usually believed with...
unquestioning belief.

Greetings.

When a preacher tells Biblical Christians a theological doctrine, they
don't believe it as being necessarily true without confirming that the
Bible itself teaches that doctrine (Acts 17:11b, 2 Timothy 3:16-4:4).
 
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Catherineanne

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I have respect for theists more than a lot of atheists for a lot of reason. But, one thing that I really find repulsive and distasteful is christian pastors saying jesuwas born on the 25th of December like its fact.

Christian pastors in fact say no such thing. Christ's birth is celebrated on the 25th December, because the actual date is unknown. Everyone knows that. As far as I am aware, the likely date is early April, 5 BC.

But even if they did claim 25 Dec as the actual day, why should it bother you? :confused:

I know a lot of people trot out the old 'Christmas is a pagan festival chosen by the RCC' nonsense, but there is actually a very good reason why the Winter solstice was chosen. When John the Baptist met the Lord, he told his followers to go with him, and he said 'He must increase and I must decrease.' This is the Biblical reason why the Winter soltice was chosen to commemorate the birth of the Lord, from which point the days increase in length, and the Summer solstice to commemorate the birth of John the Baptist, from which point the days decrease in length. It is an allegory, in other words. It is not an accident, nor a usurpation of Saturnalia or anything else. Usurping Saturnalia, fir trees, yule logs etc is just a bonus. :cool:

The early church did not know, so it did the best it could, and based its choice on what the Bible says.
 
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newbeliever02072005

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