The Big Bang Theory

[lucaspa]

Today at 09:26 PM Jeptha said this in Post #75

“How is what happens at the beginning of every human life different from the process described by the Theory of Evolution? One cell -> Many. Simplicity -> Complexity. Wouldn't your logic state that your existence is impossible?”

JEP: No, it doesn’t at all. The reason is that SlOT can be overcome via the addition of energy. When my car engine wears out, I can just do some work and replace it. When Ice melts and entropy increases, I can put it into the fridge, plug it in the wall and the liquid will organize into crystals lowering it’s entropy.

Seeds, cocoons, amniotic sacs and eggs come prepackaged as little bundles of energy including all the chemicals, vitamins, minerals and hormones it takes to get me up and running. But once I’ve reached maturity SLOT takes over and I age, wither, die and decompose.

1. The reason SLOT can apparently be overcome is that the entropy of you and car, the ice and the fridge, increases.  It's not the "energy" per se, but a decrease in entropy of the system under study (car, water) is accompanied by an increase in entropy in the system and the surroundings.

2.  Seeds, cocoons, etc do not have all the chemicals, vitamins, etc. to get you to maturity.  You have to ingest food to get there.

3. Aging and withering are still a decrease in entropy. As long as you live, you are a decrease in entropy due to the chemical reactions that make new proteins, DNA, carbohydrates, etc.  Upon death these chemical reactions cease and entropy increases.

Again, have you ever heard of the free energy equation?

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

Guys, you are wasting your breath. Jep has been told all the  things you are trying to explain to him many times before. They have been explained to him in great detail on more than one board. That is unless he is a different Jeptha with the same name and argument style, which I really doubt. Ask him about spontaneous endothermic reactions. That one completely stumped him on ARN.  The other thing you will see is that when he makes a really big blunder it turns out he was joking. Let's just repeat the question. 

What specific step required for macroevolution is prevented by the second law of thermodynamics?


The Frumious Bandersnatch

 

[lucaspa]

Today at 09:37 PM Jeptha said this in Post #79


The two are equivalent, of course. Alongside them is a third statement - the entropy of an isolated system can never decrease.”
JEP: There’s three of them but they are not that relevant to our topic. Let’s just go with this simple one: With any spontaneous reaction or process, entropy will tend to increase. And we are talking energetically spontaneous, of course. 

You haven't heard of Gibb's Free Energy.

Entropy comes into play in chemistry in the free energy equation, which is deltaG = deltaH -T x deltaS.  DeltaG is the free energy, deltaH is the enthalpy, or heat given off or taken up by the reaction, T is temperature in degrees Kelvin, and deltaS is the change in entropy.  For a constant P, constant T, deltaG is a measure of the *spontaneity* of the process.

deltaG <0 means the reaction tends to proceed spontaneously.  This can happen even tho you get a decrease in entropy if delta H is a large enough negative number.  And example is the combustion of hydrogen and oxygen to water. Water has lower entropy than the sum of the hydrogen and oxygen, but deltaH is a larger negative number.

DeltaG >0 means the reaction proceeds spontaneously in the *opposite* direction.  It is not a "stable equilibrium".  Rather, if you wish to proceed with the reaction, energy must be added to get the reaction to occur.  This can happen even if there is an decrease in entropy if delta H is a large enough positive number.  This is what happens in DNA unfolding.  Entropy increases, but you have to heat the DNA solution (add energy) because the delta H of the hydrogen bonds provides a large positive delta H. 

DeltaG =0 means that the system is in equilibrium and does not spontaneously proceed in either direction.

 

[MartinM]

Today at 02:37 AM Jeptha said this in Post #79 That says what?

That second law applies to everything in the universe EXCEPT complex macroevolution.

There’s three of them but they are not that relevant to our topic

Of course they're relevant. They are the second law. Any consequence of second law can be derived from them.

Let’s just go with this simple one: With any spontaneous reaction or process, entropy will tend to increase. And we are talking energetically spontaneous, of course

But since the Earth is not a closed system, the reactions taking place here need not be spontaneous. So that statement is not particularly relevant.

Please read my posts. I say that entropy is not always disorder just a line or two back from where you got the quote

I know, I just thought it was worth stressing.

Cool. Now explain how it happened. If it's your assertion, I'm afraid it will be up to you to support it

<sigh>

Shifting the goalposts, are we?

 

[fragmentsofdreams]

Today at 08:26 PM Jeptha said this in Post #75

“How is what happens at the beginning of every human life different from the process described by the Theory of Evolution? One cell -> Many. Simplicity -> Complexity. Wouldn't your logic state that your existence is impossible?”

JEP: No, it doesn’t at all. The reason is that SlOT can be overcome via the addition of energy. When my car engine wears out, I can just do some work and replace it. When Ice melts and entropy increases, I can put it into the fridge, plug it in the wall and the liquid will organize into crystals lowering it’s entropy.

Seeds, cocoons, amniotic sacs and eggs come prepackaged as little bundles of energy including all the chemicals, vitamins, minerals and hormones it takes to get me up and running. But once I’ve reached maturity SLOT takes over and I age, wither, die and decompose.

As you have noted, energy can be used to reverse the entropy of a system. As the Earth and its biosphere are an open system (the Sun provides energy), complex systems are allowed to develop without violating the SLOT.

 

[Jeptha]

“Jep, you claim to be familiar with the concepts. So please address the concepts and not nitpick. Quantum fluctuation hypothesizes that the universe is a quantum fluctuation analogous to virtual particles but not identical with them. The time scale is expanded because the net energy "borrowed" is zero. Which is what Joe stated next:”

JEP: Me challenging what I thought his assertion was in that matter/space-time was begun by quantum fluctuation is nitpicking? Later in the post he informed that was not his assertion but I didn’t know that at the time. And since we are past the stage of virtual particles; and since he’s not going to assert what I though he was going to assert, I think we’re safe in moving on to SLOT.

”Let's go there, Jep. As I have looked at the "macroevolution violates SLOT" argument, it is a mistaken notion of SLOT.”

JEP: Look around you, lucaspa . Me think’s we’re there.

”Ever hear of Gibb's Free Energy? SLOT applies to everything in the universe.”

JEP: Of course I’ve heard of Gibb’s. What does this have to do with cellular entropy? If you’re going where I think you’re going, then I will have to get Erwin Schrodinger to help us out.

“That means that local systems can decrease in entropy as long as the overall entropy of the system and surroundings increase. Which they do.”

JEP: Yes, local systems, or sub-systems of a main system can decrease. But can you think of anyway that this could occur in a process of macroevolution via speciation a million times a million of times in a row? Hint: It didn’t.

 

[jesusgurl_07]

I found this quote interesting when I first read it.&nbsp;I don't know..just think on it a bit.

[GLOW=purple]"Suppose you suddenly hear a loud BANG!...and you ask me, 'What was that bang?' and I reply, 'Nothing, it just happened.' You would not accept that."[/GLOW]

 

[lucaspa]

Today at 09:57 PM Jeptha said this in Post #86

“Jep, you claim to be familiar with the concepts. So please address the concepts and not nitpick. Quantum fluctuation hypothesizes that the universe is a quantum fluctuation analogous to virtual particles but not identical with them. The time scale is expanded because the net energy "borrowed" is zero. Which is what Joe stated next:”

JEP: Me challenging what I thought his assertion was in that matter/space-time was begun by quantum fluctuation is nitpicking? Later in the post he informed that was not his assertion but I didn’t know that at the time.

You nitpicked about the time, which is answered by the hypothesis.&nbsp; Perhaps you will learn to read the entire post before you start responding.

”Ever hear of Gibb's Free Energy? SLOT applies to everything in the universe.”

JEP: Of course I’ve heard of Gibb’s. What does this have to do with cellular entropy?

Gibb's Free&nbsp;Energy supplies the explanation how&nbsp;spontaneous chemical reactions can decrease entropy.

“That means that local systems can decrease in entropy as long as the overall entropy of the system and surroundings increase. Which they do.”

JEP: Yes, local systems, or sub-systems of a main system can decrease. But can you think of anyway that this could occur in a process of macroevolution via speciation a million times a million of times in a row? Hint: It didn’t.

The hint is wrong.&nbsp; What are speciation events?&nbsp; Changes in the genetic composition of the individuals in a population.&nbsp; How does the genetic composition change? By chemical reactions.&nbsp;&nbsp; And Gibbs Free Energy shows how entropy can decrease in spontaneous chemical reactions.

 

[lucaspa]

Today at 09:57 PM Jeptha said this in Post #86

“That means that local systems can decrease in entropy as long as the overall entropy of the system and surroundings increase. Which they do.”

JEP: Yes, local systems, or sub-systems of a main system can decrease. But can you think of anyway that this could occur in a process of macroevolution via speciation a million times a million of times in a row?&nbsp;

Several posts earlier you stated that input of energy can overcome SLOT.&nbsp; That's not exactly correct but, for now, let's assume you are right.

Earth is a sub-system of a main system: the solar system.&nbsp; And organisms are a subsystem of Earth.&nbsp; Energy comes into both earth and organisms.&nbsp; For earth, the sun pumps radiation energy to the planet that produces chemicals of decreased entropy either directly by chemical reactions or indirectly by the chemical reactions in plants. For organisms, they get energy from the radiation of the sun, thermal systems, or chemicals.&nbsp; All of this provides energy which, you say, can overcome SLOT.

So hint: you provided your own answer.

 

[lucaspa]

Today at 10:15 PM jesusgurl_07 said this in Post #87

I found this quote interesting when I first read it.&nbsp;I don't know..just think on it a bit.&nbsp;

"Suppose you suddenly hear a loud BANG!...and you ask me, 'What was that bang?' and I reply, 'Nothing, it just happened.' You would not accept that

There are at least 5 hypotheses&nbsp;for the cause of the Big Bang.&nbsp;&nbsp;One of them is God.&nbsp;

So far, we don't have sufficient data to eliminate any of the hypotheses.

So, the Big Bang has a cause, but the cause doesn't have to be God.

 

[Jeptha]

¡§Well after reading your complete lack of understanding of the 2nd Law, I must simply ask how come a seed does not violate the 2nd Law as it grows intoa tree? Is that not an increase in "order" and thus a decrease in entropy?¡¨

JEP: I answered this in another post, Joe. If you don¡¦t find it, let me know.

¡¨What you seem to not understand is that local decreases in entropy occur all the time - in fact you wouldn't be able to live if they didn't.¡¨

JEP: I understand this. Farm ponds freeze and thaw all the time, don¡¦t they. Snowflakes form from water droplets¡XCrystals, stalagmites and tites form all the time. But when you contrast these few examples of order with the massive amount of disorder in the rest of the world in the main system of earth; order becomes almost irrelevant. If you don¡¦t believe this, set your car out in the sun and watch it grow newer.

¡§Thermodyanmics is all about heat (hint: that is the whole "thermo" part of the word) and its transfer within a system.¡¨

JEP: Well, that¡¦s kind of correct. It certainly started with heat in Clausius¡¦ steam engines in the mid 1800s. They were using the formula ƒ´S = ƒnƒ´Q/T (those are deltas if this doesn¡¦t come out right when I post it). But Ludwig Boltzmann added concentration/diffusion of matter into the formula in the 1890s which he called information. In fact, Boltzmann defined entropy as: "Gain in information is loss in entropy."

http://www.wellesley.edu/Chemistry/chem120/thermo1.html#boltz

Then Shannon added more probability math into thermodynamics in the 1940s that deals ONLY with information. In the new millennium, we can look back and find three distinct entropies relevant to our subject.

Thermodynamical entropy deals only with heat and its exchange. Logical entropy deals only with the order (concentration/diffusion) of matter and informational entropy deals only with information. Since genes pass on coded information, we are quite correct to allow this into our discussion.

¡¨Now, is the Earth a closed system? Think about it for a second.¡¨

JEP: No (and I think you mean isolated system since there is a difference between this and a closed one). So why bring isolated systems into the discussion?

¡¨NO IT MUSTN'T BE - order (or more precisely negative entropy) can be added to any non closed system through the input of energy to the system. A plant grows, thus deceases its local entropy, by taking in energy from the sun. You seemed to have missed this little part of your physics education.¡¨

JEP: I¡¦ve already addressed this. And I never had a physics education. I was a chemist in another life. Now go stand out the sun for a month and see how much younger you get.

¡¨3. The 2nd Law no more prohibits evolution from single-celled to large organisms than it prohibits the a zygote into developing into an adult human.¡¨

JEP: Care to explain why this is true and what energy that speciation imports to overcome SLOT??

 

[Jeptha]

“1. The reason SLOT can apparently be overcome is that the entropy of you and car, the ice and the fridge, increases. It's not the "energy" per se, but a decrease in entropy of the system under study (car, water) is accompanied by an increase in entropy in the system and the surroundings.”

JEP: Only if you are dealing with thermodynamical entropy, Lucaspa. Heat. In the case of a car aging, we are not dealing with thermodynamical entropy but logical entropy. Order/disorder.

”2. Seeds, cocoons, etc do not have all the chemicals, vitamins, etc. to get you to maturity. You have to ingest food to get there.”
JEP: No. They get me from conception to birth.

”3. Aging and withering are still a decrease in entropy.”

JEP: So you think that aging, wilting and death actually brings more order to an organism? That’s just wrong. Nobel winning physicist Erwin Schrodinger teaches us that death, perfect equilibrium, is maximum entropy. Perhaps you just reversed the terms. Schrodinger’s book “What is Life’ is online if you care to read it. Here’s an excerpt from chapter 8: “Every process, event, happening—call it what you will: in a word, everything that is going on in Nature means an increase in entropy of the part of the world where it is going on. Thus a living organism continually increases its entropy—or as you might say, produces positive entropy—and thus tends to approach the dangerous state of maximum entropy, which is death.”

“As long as you live, you are a decrease in entropy due to the chemical reactions that make new proteins, DNA, carbohydrates, etc. Upon death these chemical reactions cease and entropy increases.”

JEP: This is not correct either. The only way an organism reduces its thermodynamical entropy is by releasing heat into the atmosphere of earth. The chemical reactions that turn sugars into phosphates (ATP) actually increase thermodynamical entropy in the organism. That’s the very reason that research from the thirties forward have shown that a starvation diet will keep you alive longer. Also please do not confuse entropy with energy. Energy can only be entropy if it is not available to perform work. Gibbs free energy does not meet this criterion.

 

[Jeptha]

“You haven't heard of Gibb's Free Energy.”

JEP: I have heard of Gibbs and am familiar with that equation. So what is your point? The energy is still not entropy is it? I simply don't understand what you are trying to communicate.

 

[Joe_Sixpack]

"Joe and Martin

You are trying to argue thermodynamics with someone who thought that heat is released when things evaporate and was very confused about thermodynamics in general. You will get nowhere. He can come up with more misconceptions in a few minutes than you can hope to correct with hours of work."

Thanks - I'm dense, but not so slow that I'll keep up this worthless conversation. For any creationist out there that may think this is a powerful argument for their cause - don't use it if you are talking to anyone with even a cursoy understanding of physics. It simply makes you look scientifically illiterate.

I've had enough with Jep - not worth the time.

As for lay texts on modern cosmology, check out Hawking's The Universe in a Nutshell. I have some issues with Hawking, but his lay texts are amazingly good - especially that one. The diagrams and descriptions are very well done.

Otherwise check out some works by Guth or Greene. Always fun reads. Greene does a great job with Relativity and Quantum Mechanics, but completely fails to explain String Theory - not that Iwould expect anyone to be able to really explain it.

Cheers

 

[Jeptha]

“Of course they're relevant. They are the second law. Any consequence of second law can be derived from them.”

JEP: So you don’t see how definitions of SLOT that apply only to closed systems when we are dealing only with open ones are not helpful? You don’t see how definitions of SLOT that deal only with heat when we may not be looking at a heat system are not helpful?

“But since the Earth is not a closed system, the reactions taking place here need not be spontaneous. So that statement is not particularly relevant.”

JEP: Hmmmm….Are you lost, Martin? We don’t care if a reaction or event is spontaneous or non-spontaneous. We just know that if it IS spontaneous then entropy will tend to increase. Considering simple chemical reactions: Exothermic reactions release heat into the system and anytime heat is increased in a system, entropy is increased. They are spontaneous in that they can go off unaided. But endothermic reactions need heat energy in order to complete the reaction. They absorb this heat from the system and actually lower thermodynamic entropy. These reaction are non-spontaneous because they cannot go off unaided.

“Shifting the goalposts, are we?”

JEP: Hey. You brought the goal posts onto the football field.

 

[Jeptha]

“As you have noted, energy can be used to reverse the entropy of a system. As the Earth and its biosphere are an open system (the Sun provides energy), complex systems are allowed to develop without violating the SLOT.”

JEP: You are oversimplifying this, Frag. It is true that in certain few cases the Sun can order matter. The photosynthetic process in plants is one good example. But in most cases, the sun actually works to increase entropy. When the sun hits a frozen pond, it melts it and the pond becomes more disordered. When the sun hits your car, the paint peels and the dashboard cracks. That’s why I asked Joe to go stand out in the sun for a few days and report back on how much younger he got. It just don’t work this way in animals. It wouldn't done anything to order speciation, either.

 

[Jeptha]

“Several posts earlier you stated that input of energy can overcome SLOT. That's not exactly correct but, for now, let's assume you are right.”

JEP: That is exactly correct. Go fill up an ice tray, put it into the freezer and watch what happens. The electricity will do the work, your water will turn to ice, order, and entropy will decrease.

”Earth is a sub-system of a main system: the solar system.”

JEP: Yep. You nailed that one.

“And organisms are a subsystem of Earth.”

JEP: Also correct.
“Energy comes into both earth and organisms.”

JEP: Yes it does. And when this energy comes into the human system, it serves to actually increase thermodynamical entropy. I know this is hard to understand, but I’ll walk you through the chemical reactions if you wish.

“All of this provides energy which, you say, can overcome SLOT.”

JEP: All that you have shown thus far is that the photosynthetic process reduces entropy in plants. Yes it does and I’ve said this from the get-go. It does not at all in humans, however. This food does provide Gibb’s free energy to run the cell, but this does not lower thermodynamical entropy, it raises it.

 

[Jeptha]

"I've had enough with Jep - not worth the time."

JEP: Wow. Out of argument this early in the discussion? Well, thanks for sticking it out this far. Jep

 

[Joe_Sixpack]

Fine - one more wrong comment to correct:

"Exothermic reactions release heat into the system and anytime heat is increased in a system, entropy is increased. They are spontaneous in that they can go off unaided."

Actually - not all exothermic reactions are spontaneous. Go back to the equations to find out why.

"But endothermic reactions need heat energy in order to complete the reaction. They absorb this heat from the system and actually lower thermodynamic entropy. These reaction are non-spontaneous because they cannot go off unaided."

But some endothermic reactions are spontaneous. Again go back to equations.

Your lack of knowledge of thermodynamics in chemical reactions kinda hints that you weren't really ever a chemist as you said earlier.

 

[Jeptha]

”Actually - not all exothermic reactions are spontaneous. Go back to the equations to find out why.”

JEP: Don’t need to go back to the equations. I’ve known this since freshman chem. class. This is the very reason I worded my definition of SLOT very carefully: With every spontaneous reaction or process, entropy will “TEND” to increase. Get it now?

”Your lack of knowledge of thermodynamics in chemical reactions kinda hints that you weren't really ever a chemist as you said earlier.”

JEP: *wink* Uh huh. You didn’t last five posts with the dum kreationist, did you?