The Big Bang (Hypothesis) vs. Creationism

usesoap4life · Dec 5, 2013

I honestly don't see how the Big Bang and creationism are at an odds. I think they can perfectly coincide together. We know the universe started out in a way similar to the Big Bang, why could that not be the answer? Science isn't an evil, and when discussing these topics religion does not belong. The whole goal of science is to describe events with natural phenomena, you cannot bring in a higher power.

I am a Christian but science and religion do not belong together. Do I think they can coincide perfectly in regards to the Big Bang, evolution, etc. Of course I do, we need to be open minded as Christians if we want others to be open minded to us.

pchilde3 · Dec 5, 2013

usesoap4life said:
I honestly don't see how the Big Bang and creationism are at an odds. I think they can perfectly coincide together. We know the universe started out in a way similar to the Big Bang, why could that not be the answer? Science isn't an evil, and when discussing these topics religion does not belong. The whole goal of science is to describe events with natural phenomena, you cannot bring in a higher power.

I am a Christian but science and religion do not belong together. Do I think they can coincide perfectly in regards to the Big Bang, evolution, etc. Of course I do, we need to be open minded as Christians if we want others to be open minded to us.

-Thank you for your response. However, I disagree. I think there is a way to use science as a tool for witnessing to those who need "more proof".

usesoap4life · Dec 5, 2013

I may have not said it clearly. In which we are fruits from the same tree (Christianity) I think we can discuss how science goes hand and hand with the Bible. But in other situations such as the classroom or around a group of people with different religious beliefs one should abstain from being that into an argument. Honestly to me, Big Bang, evolution, and so many other amazing events reinforce my beliefs in Christianity.

pchilde3 · Dec 5, 2013

Davian said:
I do not know that a cause was required.

No, I can honestly say that I don't know.

In your opinion.

In your opinion.

If you think I am wrong, answer my question: Would cause-and-effect as we observe it within the universe currently apply to the conditions, at the quantum level, that existed prior to the expansion/inflation of the cosmos? Experts in that field say no. Do you know different?

-No I don't believe that cause-and-effect existed prior to "time, space, and matter".

I asked, why would it need to be a deity? I don't claim to know what is required to create a universe, or what options there would be, if any, or how much power it would take, if any. Perhaps it was something with the intelligence of a toaster oven, a multiverse mechanism that, every so often, pops out a universe, and you get what you get. Perhaps it was simpler than that.

-The only thing that makes sense is a creator. Without a creator, you have nothing. Nothing cannot create something. Only something, divine and eternal can.

Do you have anything other than untestable, unfalsifiable assertions?

Are you here to do philosophy, or to just preach?

-I am here for input on my rough draft to connect the Big Bang to creation. Noticing that there are a lot of atheist critics, I am here to preach also. After all, this is a Christian forum.

freezerman2000 · Dec 5, 2013

pchilde3 said:
-I am here for input on my rough draft to connect the Big Bang to creation. Noticing that there are a lot of atheist critics, I am here to preach also. After all, this is a Christian forum.

Please don't preach..discussion is a much more easy way to get one's ideas heard.preaching can and has turned folks away from threads..I have seen it..It has turned me away at times...This aint Church.

pchilde3 · Dec 5, 2013

usesoap4life said:
I may have not said it clearly. In which we are fruits from the same tree (Christianity) I think we can discuss how science goes hand and hand with the Bible. But in other situations such as the classroom or around a group of people with different religious beliefs one should abstain from being that into an argument. Honestly to me, Big Bang, evolution, and so many other amazing events reinforce my beliefs in Christianity.

-Yes, I agree with you and I understand where you are coming from. It just kills me seeing people that are so far from God. But you know, for an atheist to even be on a Christian forum shows that God is reaching out to them. I believe everyone has their own journey, some accept Christ at an early age and some on their death bed, but in the end they join us in Heaven. If atheist could understand just one thing about God, that he is more than we can comprehend, then I think they would have their answer.

Ana the Ist · Dec 5, 2013

xXChristPeripheralXx said:
If I may..

I would posit that there is a dualistic paradigm intrinsic to our reality, coupled with morality and how without an objective source, it seemingly cannot exist, leading to a perpetual downward spiral of our eithics and the positive reinforcement they can provide, so long as we have an objective source.

As an intellect, my mind, which is rather abstract in its imaginative ability, still cant reconcile the formation of life on earth by mechanical processes alone, not with the insurmountable odds it would face to pull off such a feat..

Ive been through the scientific and philosophical route, I can argue both positions for and against God, but I feel the evidence is in Gods favor from an intuitive aspect, as well as the evidence I believe we have for the events in the Bible. It parallels history flawlessly based on my research thus far.

I submit that a creator in fact exists on these premises alone.

When you claim that an objective morality exists...what makes you think this is true? The fact that everyone agrees as to what is right and wrong ? (we don't, and this can be proven). The fact that your supposed god explains what is right and what's wrong? (This would imply that no objective morality existed before he told us...which should result in some differences before and after...which I can show don't exist). Is there some proof of objective morality in the way people act? (I can also show that relative morality is more consistent in explaining people's actions)

So what is it? Is there any reason to believe that objective morality exists? Any reason other than you personally like the idea of it better than the idea that morality is relative?

Ana the Ist · Dec 5, 2013

pchilde3 said:
-Yes, I agree with you and I understand where you are coming from. It just kills me seeing people that are so far from God. But you know, for an atheist to even be on a Christian forum shows that God is reaching out to them. I believe everyone has their own journey, some accept Christ at an early age and some on their death bed, but in the end they join us in Heaven. If atheist could understand just one thing about God, that he is more than we can comprehend, then I think they would have their answer.

Lol if god is more than we can comprehend...then how could we possibly know anything else about god? You just said he's incomprehensible...so anything else you can possibly claim about him we shouldn't believe, because he's incomprehensible.

Davian · Dec 5, 2013

pchilde3 said:
-Thank you for your response. However, I disagree. I think there is a way to use science as a tool for witnessing to those who need "more proof".

I find that to be quite disingenuous, seeing as you do not accept the science in question. Besides, science does not equal atheism.

I don't see how an anti-science approach is going to endear you to non-believers.

Davian · Dec 5, 2013

pchilde3 said:
-I am here for input on my rough draft to connect the Big Bang to creation.

Can you describe, in a nutshell, what you believe the big bang theory describes?

pchilde3 said:
Noticing that there are a lot of atheist critics, I am here to preach also. After all, this is a Christian forum.

It is my understanding that preaching is entirely inappropriate the discussion and debate forums, of which this is one. There are other forums on this site that are more appropriate for that kind of behaviour.

Davian · Dec 5, 2013

Received said:
And he will, when you wake up after dying and in the love and warmth of God you realize YOU'RE BURNING IN HELL FOREVER AND EVER AND EVER!

But remember, you are always free to choose!

Received said:
(Pass the donation plate.)

"But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money! Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay no taxes, and they always need a little more." (Carlin)

xXChristPeripheralXx · Dec 5, 2013

KTS said:
When I say that evolution isn't random, I mean that the variations that are passed on from parent to child to grandchild are not random. Variations that help the children are passed on because those variations made it easier for the parents to survive long enough to have babies. Variations that harm the child probably won't be passed on, because any animal that has them is likely to die before having many babies.

Evolution is the way animals adapt to their environment.

Why wouldn't there be? Do you think that a society could have its entire labour force just walk off the job and life would go on as normal? Of course not. The Egyptian society would be thrown into chaos. And yet there is no record of this. Why not?

Well heres my thinking..

We have a slave class 3700 years ago.

They werent privy to commerce.
They werent practicing their faith openly.
They werent leaving any monuments or statues behind.
They didnt have a historical archive that they maintained.
And when they left Egypt, they took their most valuable belongings which I assume not to be much and left.

Historians still dont know what happened to the Egyptians and why they left so suddenly, you know this is true.

Im not saying its because of Moses, I dont question it to be honest.

The Jews have their history, I have mine..

xXChristPeripheralXx · Dec 5, 2013

Davian said:
The argument from incredulity, a logical fallacy.

Your claim, you figure it out.

So you were bluffing about knowing the odds.

Sure we do. We have reason, human wellness and empathy.

I do not posit the existence of objective morality.

On what do you base that assumption?

That is not proof. That would make you wrong about having proof.

What I meant was, the big bang theory does not posit a creator.

Was that not the name of a Doctor Seuss book?

No, I am not.

I don't discuss theism with fleas. Do you?

That is not a fact.

Do you have anything other than untestable, unfalsifiable assertions?

Are you here to do philosophy, or to just preach?

Listen, I do enjoy the tit for tat, Im just not sure what you are expecting to hear from me..

If you have genuine questions about coming to Christ, and how you can receive Gods grace, I can help you..

If you have any "tough" questions, that I can answer for you, let me know, but you have to receive them with an indifference to the source.. If you dont agree, just say so, but we both know that going any further than that becomes a back and forth and huge waste of time..

Ive argued from your position my entire life, so I know what you are feeling.

usesoap4life · Dec 5, 2013

The gentleman that said God is incomprehensible is correct. God is, his power is. That does not mean he can't say anything else. If it was that easy we would not be discussing this right now.

Ana the Ist · Dec 5, 2013

usesoap4life said:
The gentleman that said God is incomprehensible is correct. God is, his power is. That does not mean he can't say anything else. If it was that easy we would not be discussing this right now.

Before we continue this, perhaps we should define "incomprehensible" just so we all know.what we're talking about. I looked up the definition on several sources, and there isn't much variation...so I'll give you this one from the free dictionary.

a. Difficult or impossible to understand or comprehend; unintelligible: incomprehensible jargon.
b. Impossible to know or fathom: incomprehensible mysteries.

If something is incomprehensible, that's really all we can know about it for sure. If you say god is incomprehensible, then anything else you claim about that god is suspect. After all, how can you know about god if he is incomprehensible? If you want someone to accept that notion, you're basically telling them that any further attempts to understand god are worthless...as are any further claims about him. The only question now is, how do you know? How can you know god is incomprehensible?

usesoap4life · Dec 5, 2013

Ok, perhaps my wording was a bit confusing. The teaching of God and his works in the Bible are all explained, and from various other sources if you choose to believe them. I believe Gods knowledge, power, and understanding are on a level that we will never be able to comprehend in this spiritual realm (consciousness inside our physical being). For God to set the wheels in motion for the creation of the universe and all that is in it, life and it's evolution, and other complicated matters is at this point beyond our understanding. Maybe in our future science will be able to explain these amazing phenomena, but I think that God will always be at a higher level than we can reach.

Is that more clear? I understand your concern for defining this term and you want to get the most clear and definitive information you can. Now if you don't agree, that is ok. No one will agree on everything and I will respect your opinion. In the end, we will all be going to The same place.

Ana the Ist · Dec 5, 2013

usesoap4life said:
Ok, perhaps my wording was a bit confusing. The teaching of God and his works in the Bible are all explained, and from various other sources if you choose to believe them. I believe Gods knowledge, power, and understanding are on a level that we will never be able to comprehend in this spiritual realm (consciousness inside our physical being). For God to set the wheels in motion for the creation of the universe and all that is in it, life and it's evolution, and other complicated matters is at this point beyond our understanding. Maybe in our future science will be able to explain these amazing phenomena, but I think that God will always be at a higher level than we can reach.

Is that more clear? I understand your concern for defining this term and you want to get the most clear and definitive information you can. Now if you don't agree, that is ok. No one will agree on everything and I will respect your opinion. In the end, we will all be going to The same place.

That clears up everything but the "why". Why do you believe god's knowledge,power, and understanding are beyond comprehension?

xXChristPeripheralXx · Dec 5, 2013

Ana the Ist said:
That clears up everything but the "why". Why do you believe god's knowledge,power, and understanding are beyond comprehension?

God answers this directly, just hawking your discussion, perhaps this can help you.

Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Amen.

I think what God is indicating here, is that we arent able to conceive his level of understanding with our primitive cognitive abilities.

Even if he wanted to, we would have to die first in order to be in spirit.

Ana the Ist · Dec 6, 2013

xXChristPeripheralXx said:
God answers this directly, just hawking your discussion, perhaps this can help you.

Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Amen.

I think what God is indicating here, is that we arent able to conceive his level of understanding with our primitive cognitive abilities.

Even if he wanted to, we would have to die first in order to be in spirit.

Yea...can you put that in context though? Because through isa 55-1 to 55-8 it appears we have a different narrator...not the lord...then 8-9 seems to be the narrator quoting the lord...and the rest of 55 back to the first person narrator voice (isaiah?). It would seem that's the way this was written...otherwise it's a bit weird right? Like the narrator is writing a poem and the lord is sitting next to him going, "hold on, I wanna add a couple lines". Lol. So since the whole thing is written by a human narrator...why should we believe he knows?

Btw, did you see my question regarding your statements about morality?

xXChristPeripheralXx · Dec 6, 2013

Ana the Ist said:
Yea...can you put that in context though? Because through isa 55-1 to 55-8 it appears we have a different narrator...not the lord...then 8-9 seems to be the narrator quoting the lord...and the rest of 55 back to the first person narrator voice (isaiah?). It would seem that's the way this was written...otherwise it's a bit weird right? Like the narrator is writing a poem and the lord is sitting next to him going, "hold on, I wanna add a couple lines". Lol. So since the whole thing is written by a human narrator...why should we believe he knows?

Man, I love how you just confirmed my faith with that beautiful post..

You see prophets hold a different function in Biblical history, you could say they are chosen specifically to impart knowledge by the Spirit of God, which you receive upon profession of Christ.

Ive never heard it quite put like that as you did, but you are kinda right.. The Holy Spirit moves us, and in the case of the prophets, God is speaking through them, with them.

Interesting, you accidentally gave me discernment.. So for that thanks!

I used to be in your shoes, I argued against God my entire life..

There is a fundamental submission of ego that must take place before one comes to God..

What brought me to my knees was the understanding I was given.

Lest I end up like Nietzsche, crazy for the last years of my life from staring into the abyss to far lol..

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