The Big Bang, Evolution, and other Myths

Mar 29, 2012
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Right. A child can show that the world's physicists are wrong about physics.

This is what angers me the most about Theists. The abundance of ignorant arrogance intrinsically rooted in God's apparent children is at the forefront of this tiresome position. It makes you wonder why most of God's defenders are without intelligence, reason, and the ability to question their own belief first before questioning everyone elses.

The sheer egotistical, ignorant idiocy it takes to think you could take on professional scientists by spouting what you hear on creationist websites to disprove the very foundations of their work when you haven't received an education other than that mandatory of school procedure, nor studied independantly at any great length is just simply a MONSTROSITY to the development of knowledge. It is disgustingly offensive to those that have devoted their life to subjects such as evolutionary biology to be told by a creationist buffoon that there is no evidence for macro evolution when they haven't even devoted five minutes of their time to researching the subject, all they've done is go to their favourite conservative christian website and read the article on "disproving evolution" from another christian that knows absolutely nothing in any field of science whatsoever.

In science, we do not start with presumptions. We start with the evidence, and then come to the conclusions. This is why things like friday the 13th superstition is hilariously stupid. No one really knows the real story behind friday the 13th, they just assume it's naturally an unlucky day, and therefore presuppose negative connotations to it. This is why when the date comes around, everyone is much more aware of the negative things that happened to them that day and think it's all because of the unluckiness of the day when in actual fact everyone had just the same amount of bad things happen to them the day before, and the entire week, the entire month, etc etc. You begin cherry picking the evidence even though the majority of evidence is heavily weighed in the direct opposite of your favour, and cling on to it just because you found a tiny shred of evidence that goes in your favour.


When you presuppose the God of the bible before coming to any conclusion in regards to the pursuit of knowledge, there is a lot of things you abandon. Common sense, respect and logic are only some of these things.
 
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sfs

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This is what angers me the most about Theists. The abundance of ignorant arrogance intrinsically rooted in God's apparent children is at the forefront of this tiresome position. It makes you wonder why most of God's defenders are without intelligence, reason, and the ability to question their own belief first before questioning everyone elses.
What's theism got to do with it? People can be ignorant, arrogant or stupid with or without a belief in God.
 
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RickyVernio

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Dear InterestingUsername:

The Universe keeps gaining in age, as more and more time (in the cosmic sense) is required to fit all of today's theories. Last time I checked, they put the age of the Universe somewhere between 12 and 15 billion years. So you get a little bit ahead of yourself and everybody else when you say that the light of certain galaxies has taken 18 billion years to reach us. You may be "proven" right a few years from now, when they update the age again; but not right now.

There is no absolute proof of anything; I'm glad we agree on that one. However, there are degrees of proof. For instance, there is most certainly proof that the dinosaurs existed: there's no shortage of fossilized gigantic lizard bones; plenty of them on pretty much all continents. There is not a shred of evidence for evolution, neither hard nor soft. A large number of people saying very loudly, using all kinds of media, for over a hundred years, that evolution exists, is NOT evidence. The presence on the planet of reptiles and mammals CANNOT be viewed as evidence that the latter evolved from the former. To be sure, the evidence AGAINST evolution is plentiful. Ever since man started observing flora and fauna, no new species have appeared; and plenty of species have become extinct. That's a FACT. A whole bunch of species have disappeared over the past year alone.

Finally, hypocrisy is spelled like this: hypocrisy. You might be mixing up two different things here: the term describing folks who are in the habit of pretending to believe in commonly accepted virtues in order to gain something; and the famous Greek medic.
 
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USincognito

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This is what angers me the most about Theists. {snip}

Why are you using an "other religion" badge while ranting about "Theists"?

If you have a problem with Creationists, you should refer to them as such.
 
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USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
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There is not a shred of evidence for evolution, neither hard nor soft. A large number of people saying very loudly, using all kinds of media, for over a hundred years, that evolution exists, is NOT evidence.

Oh brother. :doh:

Why don't you go to the proper part of the Crevo subforum and start a thread with this. You should find it edifying to say the least.
http://www.christianforums.com/f70/
 
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Dear InterestingUsername:
Last time I checked, they put the age of the Universe somewhere between 12 and 15 billion years.

There is no absolute proof of anything;


1. I never said anything about the age of the universe other than when we look at the furthest observable galaxies, we are looking at the universe before it was even a billion years old. I was talking about light. The universe may indeed be around 14 billion years old, but it is not flat nor is it static. Spacetime is curved in relation to the expansion of space. Technically the observable 'edge' of the universe is AT LEAST upwards of 45 billion light years away.

2. Are you seriously telling me the bible has been more consistent in it's claims than the theory of evolution? Seriously?
You seem to assume scientists are these big mean egotistical ignorant jerks that don't want to admit they are wrong. This is the literal opposite of these magnificent minds. Science thrives on being proven wrong. It feeds off failure. We WANT to be shown that our current way of thinking is false, as this allows us to build upon the foundations of the theories that came before. Why do you think it was in the media last year that scientists had published results of neutrinos moving faster than the speed of light? They WANTED outside opinion, because it would shake the very foundations of physics itself if it was proven that they were actually moving faster than light itself. The reason evolution is a widely accepted scientific theory is because it is CONSISTENT. If it wasn't we wouldn't be using it. Do you honestly think scientists wouldn't jump at the chance of creating new theories in place of evolution? The unknown is the greatest motivator in science. If evolution wasn't the most plausible theory as well as being remarkably consistent in it's data, scientists would be ALL OVER it. Here's a question, who was the real big, mean, egotistical, ignorant leading organisation that was against Copernicus, Gallileo, Darwin and Lemaitre's findings and ultimately the pursuit of scientific discovery because it conflicted with scripture?

It is clear that you have a fundamental lack of understanding of evolution ("no new species have appeared"), so I suggest that instead of presupposing "The bible is absolute truth" before trying to poke holes in evolution, I suggest you presuppose "I know nothing in regards to the biological change of life" and then educate yourself on the matter before even thinking about attempting to correct the theory.
 
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Why are you using an "other religion" badge while ranting about "Theists"?

I don't think I've ever changed my profile, so I don't know why it says that. Atheism would be the best definition for my beliefs.

I don't just have a problem with creationists (even though they are the leading group of scientific ignorance), it's the majority of theists, as they think they can delve into the realms of science in order to prove their beliefs, when they don't have any understanding whatsoever on the things they throw out. I don't know how many times I've heard "2ND LAW OF THERMODYNAMICS!" in conversations with theists.
 
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RickyVernio

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1. I never said anything about the age of the universe other than when we look at the furthest observable galaxies, we are looking at the universe before it was even a billion years old. I was talking about light. The universe may indeed be around 14 billion years old, but it is not flat nor is it static. Spacetime is curved in relation to the expansion of space. Technically the observable 'edge' of the universe is AT LEAST upwards of 45 billion light years away.

I realize that most atheists reside in some kind of Orwellian nightmare and live and die by doublethink; but this one "idea" just takes the cake. The age of the Universe has been steadily increasing in their heads since before Hubble (from only a couple of billion years to today's 12 to 14, if I recollect aright); I have also heard that, according to their fairy tales, the Universe was at one point expanding faster than light; but goodness gracious, slow down and read something on the subject. I'm not even talking about basic relativity here; I don't think an atheist could grasp it (I've tried explaining some of Einstein's ideas to them; no use; you guys are cavemen); but some basic math and logic would be nice. In order for someone to observe a light source that's 45 billion light years away, one must allow the proper temporal interval (45 billion years) to pass for the light to reach them. There's NO getting around it. When a star is born ten light years away, you'll only see it ten years from now. According to the current cosmological paradigm, electromagnetic waves don't take shortcuts (incidentally, I don't know why they believe that; I'm not quite sure the reasoning is sound; but they are, and they do); it has to follow the curvature of space instead of making a beeline for the observer; thus 45 billion light years away means just that: 45 billion years for the wave to travel.

2. Are you seriously telling me the bible has been more consistent in it's claims than the theory of evolution? Seriously?

The Bible has not once changed anything in the narrative. Unscientific fairy tales that have been posing as science for at least 2,500 years change every decade. Today's evolutionists make claims that run contrary to what Charles Darwin believed. Again, maybe you should read a book or two. I wouldn't recommend "The Origin of Species," you might not appreciate the language; but a sensible primer would probably do. The Bible I have to recommend: my duty as a Christian. However, I don't think it'll do you any good at this point; you'd have to get rid of some preconceived notions, and I don't think you'd be willing to part with some of them at this juncture. Rule of thumb is, though, no book can do a man any good unless he's willing to keep an open mind, whether it's the Bible, Shakespeare, Alexandre Dumas, Mark Twain, or Darwin; preconceived notions will always get in the way.

You seem to assume scientists are these big mean egotistical ignorant jerks that don't want to admit they are wrong.

I never said that. I think scientists are amazingly interesting people, and science itself has fascinated me forever. I don't think evolutionists are scientists. And I resent it when folks try to tell me that if I think that the idea of evolution is a lot of nonsense then I must also think that science is a lot of nonsense. Both evolution and today's cosmology are aggressively anti-scientific. You'll recall the now-famous quote, "Darwin is liked by evolutionists because he liberated science from the straitjacket of observation and opened the door to storytellers. This gave professional evolutionists job security so they can wander through biology labs as if they belong there."

In other words, please don't make me show you my diploma.

Here's a question, who was the real big, mean, egotistical, ignorant leading organisation that was against Copernicus, Gallileo, Darwin and Lemaitre's findings and ultimately the pursuit of scientific discovery because it conflicted with scripture?

There isn't a single case on record of scientific discovery conflicting with Scripture. As for the names you mentioned (you really should read a book or two instead of watching TV and believing blindly that atheist propaganda deals in facts):

There were some doubts about Copernicus; the heliocentric theory had been around for over a thousand years before he started making use of it; he was well-liked by the Church, and was of the Church himself. Certain folks were afraid that his ideas (in a twisted and oversimplified form) could be used as atheist propaganda that would screw up many an unprepared mind. They were quite right: look at you. Copernicus was absolutely and unquestionably wrong: the Sun is NOT at the center, nor a notch or two to the left of the center (as he claimed) of the Universe. He should have studied the papers of Nicholas of Cusa (they were available to him) who explains (using math) that nothing pertaining to the physical aspect of the Universe can be said to be positioned at its center; and that there is no such thing as a perfect circle anywhere in space (Copernicus was rather stubborn about the shape of the orbits).

Galileo's conflict with the Jesuits and the Pope (who was his friend) had nothing to do with science or Scripture. It was very personal. Both the Jesuits and the Pope resented the fact that Galileo repeatedly called them morons in his published papers. The Pope also disliked the "simpleton" thing and viewed it as a betrayal (not without reason; Galileo proved to be a backstabber there). Galileo rejected the ideas of Johannes Kepler, his contemporary, regarding the shape of the planets' orbits, and called Kepler's idea that the tides might have something to do with the moon "useless fiction." He also believed that comets were an optical illusion and called the Jesuit scientist who theorized that they might be space objects - you guessed it: a moron.

Darwin isn't guilty of making any discoveries. Neither is Lemaitre, for that matter, who was a priest.

Read a book or two. The most striking feature of all atheists: aggressive ignorance laced with idiotic mantras and slogans.
 
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RickyVernio

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I don't know how many times I've heard "2ND LAW OF THERMODYNAMICS!" in conversations with theists.

The current fashionable workaround is, I believe, the fourth over the past ten years. The idea is that because the stars, including the Sun, are losing energy and matter, they're losing complexity; and their loss is the Earth's gain; that the increase in complexity on Earth over time that evolutionists claim is the basis of their idea is part of the balancing-out process. This is, of course, vapid nonsense for many reasons; but for someone whose mind is as virginal as yours, this one should do (as food for thought, anyway): the entire Universe may not be sufficient to balance out this here planet's number of combinations. The intricacy of our planet's system, especially its ecological aspect, is beyond mind-boggling. A single living cell is more complex (by orders of magnitude) than most galaxies (as they are perceived today).

Good luck.
 
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metherion

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You have both what the second law of thermodynamics state wrong, and the rebuttal wrong.

The second law states that entropy is constantly increasing. All well and good. Entropy is the amount of energy available for work in a thermodynamic process. Entropy is NOT some arbitrary scale of complexity. And the fact of the matter is that because of the energy coming in from the Sun in the form of heat and light, as well as coming from other sources when the Sun doesn't reach, such as undersea vents, chemical reactions can take place on earth that increase the amount of energy available for work because that energy increase comes from an outside source. The complexity of life and the ecosystem has nothing to do with it.

Of course, you will probably hand wave that away, judging from the rest of this thread, but I'm curious to see what your 'other reasons' are, and I'm happy to suggest some good books on what entropy actually is to you.

Metherion
 
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RickyVernio

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My dear sir, I wasn't going to discuss entropy here, and I daresay you should fully understand the concept before presenting it as - well, an argument, I think, even though it comes across as "Look at me! I know the word entropy."

Entropy is a very abstract concept that doesn't mean much; entropy is "what we want to call entropy." It is hinged on what we perceive as "useful work." In other words, any energy that bounces around without doing anything meaningful (from our point of view) or useful (from our point of view) is classified as "entropy." The original concept is actually much more precise, for, look you, holding atomic structures together can be both meaningful and useful.

Conclusion: look a few things up; read a few books; then come back and show off your knowledge with a bit more expertise thrown in.
 
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metherion

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It's rather hilarious to hear you say that, considering what unadulerated baloney your 'evolutionists say the universe's loss of complexity balances out the earth's complexity but it doesn't work' to keep your 2nd law argument in effect is.

You'll notice I didn't say anything about USEFUL work, I said AVAILABLE work. As in, the work that can be gotten out of a system until you can't get any more out of it. That has nothing to do with perceived usefulness. Entropy can also be used, along with enthalpy, to predict the spontaneity of chemical reactions at certain temperatures, and all sorts of useful things. It doesn't hinge at all on what is considered useful work in the slightest.

It has nothing to do with 'how complex life on earth is compared to the lack of complexity in a star's loss of mass'. Entropy is also pretty well defined, as is how to find out what it is, and so on. You might want to increase your understanding of entropy if you think the complexity argument is anything other than laughable, as it is, your understanding of it is so poor you can't even see why your complexity of life versus mass loss of stars doesn't even make sense.

If you didn't want to discuss it, you probably shouldn't have used the whole 'X argument against using the 2nd law of thermodynamics is wrong;. You've also managed to completely misunderstand and mangle what the actual argument against using entropy against evolution is (and, for the record, entropy is NOT a valid argument against it).

Metherion
 
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USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
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Please re-read the second sentence of the text you've just quoted.

Why? I know exactly what you wrote and was trying to see if you had to guts to step into the lions den and defend your claim.

It appears that you don't.

Good for you. :cool:
 
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USincognito

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I don't think I've ever changed my profile, so I don't know why it says that. Atheism would be the best definition for my beliefs.

This link should work. You can change your religious views in the first section where there's a drop down.
http://www.christianforums.com/profile/edit/

I don't just have a problem with creationists (even though they are the leading group of scientific ignorance), it's the majority of theists, as they think they can delve into the realms of science in order to prove their beliefs, when they don't have any understanding whatsoever on the things they throw out. I don't know how many times I've heard "2ND LAW OF THERMODYNAMICS!" in conversations with theists.

O.k. We appear to have different perceptions of what "theists" are claiming, so I'll leave by just reminding everyone this is the formal debate section of the Creation and Evolution subforum. If you wish to discuss what is being discussed here, it should be there or in the Physical Science subforum.
 
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